Stardusk78 wrote...
So I
was talking the other day to a friend about this and I began to realise
that many people criticise Liara for not being critical of Shepard and
love the fact that the VS is so critical of him, never mind the fact
that Liara almost went through hell to save you, even giving your corpse
to Cerberus in the vague hope something might happen. That is undying
love, sure in real life relationships are all about naggging and putting
your partner down so I suppose that is the appeal of the VS romance
over Liara's but I would rather indulge the fantasy of what does not
exist in real life to be honest.
Your take?
Pardon, but your issues are showing.
Some of the things you say make me feel like I should be pissed at you, but I have too damned much sympathy for you to actually feel that way. I've known plenty of people, male and female, who were bitter against the opposite sex because probability was not in their favor and they ran into too many people of one sex who were just horrible to them and completely warped their view, when in reality it's people that suck; not women, not men, and intimate relationships happen more frequently between men and women, which bring us in more frequent contact with the bad side of one gender than the other. Just ask homosexuals, though--your own gender can be a real b***h, too, given the right circumstances and the wrong luck (or possibly just bad instincts.)
There's this period between the teens and early to mid twenties where everyone is sophisticated enough to be evil to each other, yet not sophisticated enough to know themselves or recognize what they want in life. Chaos and a lot of stupid, embarrassing "learning relationships" ensue. For those who are maybe a little bit too mature too fast, this ends in disaster when they bump into people socially mature enough to manipulate them, but not emotionally mature enough to relate to them properly. They get used and their hearts get crushed.
But there's a real life beyond that nonsense. Mature relationships are more like Shepard's relationship with Liara, not less. I would call that romance a grounded one without the foolish drama which characterizes those "learning relationships" I was talking about. A real, mature lover would have had more than like 6 conversations with Shepard during the course of a year, and would thus know Shepard well enough not to say "you're a traitor." They would hang on, more like Liara.
Well, all except for the bringing you back from the dead thing. But the faith, the trust, the outbursts followed by apology and emotional intimacy... that's a mature relationship, right there. The best that can be asked of people is that they know themselves well enough to catch themselves when they say things they don't mean; that they are adult enough to identify the real reasons for their feelings.
Liara shows an ability to care for Shepard in a highly realistic way, in LotSB at least. I was delighted with that DLC because I felt it showed a perfect example of a functional relationship, whether as a romance or a strong friendship.
A functional relationship isn't perfect. It just consists of two people who are trying their best to live autonomous lives while being there for each other when it's needed. They may fight, they may argue, they don't always agree, but they do their best to show love and support and if they hurt each other, they make things right in some way, because they know what they found is more important than having the last word and defending yourself.
Hell, that's pretty much my parents' marriage right there. I may be unusually lucky there, but at any rate, I know it exists. In fact, Liara reminds me of my mother. (Personality-wise, that is.)
BlueMagitek wrote...
Well, what Liara does is actually really disturbing. Sure, she doesn't want her friend/lover/abusive "friend" to have his/her body sent to the Collectors, fair enough. But giving the body to a Black Ops organization that Shepard is almost certainly against (at that point)? This isn't a fantasy realm where bringing the dead back to life is common, this is on the wildly off chance of it happening. And she does this even if you're against her in ME 1. It's a rather terrifying obsession, not undying love (and this could have been solved by giving non romanced Liara's a different line about the Cipher being too important / Shepard is too important against the Reapers to just die). But as it stands, her reason is completely emotional, and in my opinion,
really rather creepy (even for the romanced ones).
I understand why you would say that, but even the most racist Renedouche Shepard ever has made the galaxy a better place than it would've been without them. Even *that* Shepard saved Liara from a fate worse than death and set her mother free, not to mention everything else.
Though she states her motives plainly, I do think that deep down, Liara realized the necessity of Shepard being alive. Shepard is a protector and a hero to her. She was trapped, her mother was trapped, and without Shepard that might never have changed. As you noted, Shepard--the keeper of the Cipher and the Reapers' worst enemy--is too important to lose.
"When I gave you to Cerberus, I told myself I was doing it for you, for a chance to bring you back. But I knew Cerberus would use you for their own business, and I let it happen. Because I couldn't let you go." Hell, if I lived in a universe with the Reapers, I wouldn't be able to let Shepard go either!
I think Liara is aware of the complexity and the nuanced nature of her motives, and that the dialogue allows for that interpretation. You can take it as deep, pure love, as a devoted friendship, or as nostalgia, sympathy, and misplaced gratitude depending on the Shepard you're playing.
Regardless of why Liara did it, Shepard would be a corpse without her. I am not going to look down on her for having the sanity to say, "Huh, no, I don't think Shepard being gone is something to shrug my shoulders about."
CptData wrote...
I heard there are people who love bald women ... 
I do. I love Jack. Not because she's bald, just because she's so damaged. I just want to hug her.
Although, I don't mind the bald thing. It's kinda cool.
That doesn't mean I don't love Ashley's bun. I'm going to miss it in ME3. It was so her.
Barquiel wrote...
Didn't you know? Only romances with mutual accusations of betrayal and high treason are realistic and challenging [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]
*lmao* Nice one.
Sometimes I can't help evaluating Kaidan on the basis of that. Other times, I just have to chalk it up to the drama of the story arc. I hope they treat it well in ME3; give us a timeline for what the VS was doing, make us sympathize with the VS, give us something of their perspective beyond, "You're working with Cerberus! " then "Sorry I was mean back there but you're still working with Cerberus. Don't trust them, kthnxbye!"
Ideally, I'd like to see if they can make me forget how much Act 2 sucked for VS romancers.
Modifié par Wynne, 24 janvier 2012 - 04:56 .
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