Really? A trained, educated human marine can't tell the asari, turians, salarians, volus, elcor and hanar apart from the Keepers? Here's a hint Ash, the aliens are the ones who're talking.
Anybody that calls Ashley a "Racist" is ....
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#227
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 01:58
Xilizhra
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[quote]1. Ashley never hated alien's she just cautious since she never worked with them before[/quote]
Hatred is unnecessary.
[quote]2. She hate Cerberus and Terra Ferma[/quote]
Oftentimes such hatred can be caused by guilt regarding one's own inadequacies.
[quote]3. She suggest that you talk to Liara after killing her mother[/quote]
Has relatively little to do with it.
[quote]4. She is willing to work with Salerian STG without being told do by Shepard[/quote]
Well, she wouldn't complain when that's obviously the direction Shepard is heading in, it would make everyone look bad.
[quote]5. She has hope's Tali's people will have a better future[/quote]
So have many racists IRL. White Man's Burden and all that.
[quote]7. She admire's the DA[/quote]
Point being?
[quote]8. Ashley's writer says she is not racist[/quote]
Writers can err. He did on numerous occasions.
[quote]I'm afraid your mistaken. Her writer clearly states from the beginning that Ashley is not a racist. She never ridicules or mistrusts anyone based on their race. But she does mistrust certain people and factions in the galaxy based on their LOYALTIES.[/quote]
What she imagines their loyalties might be. It's irrelevant regardless because the ship is on a Council mission, not an Alliance one.
[quote]Her concerns when bringing up Garrus and Wrex are not her being nervous/guilty/uncomfortable. Nor does she think it's ugly or prejudiced. She's a Gunnery Chief with security responsibilities. To again quote Malcolm Reed from Star Trek:"We don't know anything about this species, or what they want, or what they hope to gain. And until we know that, we should restrict access to engineering, the armoury and any other sensitive part of the ship."[/quote]
By this time, a great deal is known about turians/krogan/etc, and generally they don't all want to gain one thing.
[quote]You don't let anyone, regardless of how much they say 'they want to help', waltz onto an advanced starship without keeping an eye on them. The dog and bear analogy is her way of saying that if the Council has a problem that they need solved, they'll sic their dog (humanity) on the bear (any alien threat that the Council doesn't want to deal with directly).[/quote]
One area where the author screwed up, as the delivery was completely botched. Shepard already has an eye on them, and what I find quite interesting is that the analogy reverses during the Council decision at the end, with the DA being the dog and Shepard being the human. If Shepard Paragons that choice, she winds up proving Ashley wrong.
[quote]And guess what, her concerns are well justified. Three times, the Council sics humanity on a threat that they don't feel comfortable dealing with themselves. First, the batarians, who were getting too powerful for the Council to control. Then Saren, who they let Shepard deal with, without committing any major military action by themselves. And the latest example is the Collectors. The Council won't take any action themselves, but they let Shepard take care of it, no problem.[/quote]
Humans were extremely happy to deal with the batarians themselves, Saren was a Council project, and they sent the STG after the Collectors but didn't get anywhere concrete.
[quote]Ash isn't a racist by any definition of the term. She doesn't look down on anyone because of their species, or assume any inherent human superiority. Her concerns are simply loyalty, and the knowledge that people will always be more loyal to their own. This COULD be considered racist if you are seriously stretching the bounds of credulity, but as her writer said: She's not. Why is this so difficult to accept?[/quote]
Active looking down is unnecessary. Only dislike is necessary. I believe you and her writer misunderstand the definition of "racism."
[quote]Yes it is. The context in which she says it is not correct.[/quote]
Irrelevant. What matters is what's in the game, not what we wish would be.
Hatred is unnecessary.
[quote]2. She hate Cerberus and Terra Ferma[/quote]
Oftentimes such hatred can be caused by guilt regarding one's own inadequacies.
[quote]3. She suggest that you talk to Liara after killing her mother[/quote]
Has relatively little to do with it.
[quote]4. She is willing to work with Salerian STG without being told do by Shepard[/quote]
Well, she wouldn't complain when that's obviously the direction Shepard is heading in, it would make everyone look bad.
[quote]5. She has hope's Tali's people will have a better future[/quote]
So have many racists IRL. White Man's Burden and all that.
[quote]7. She admire's the DA[/quote]
Point being?
[quote]8. Ashley's writer says she is not racist[/quote]
Writers can err. He did on numerous occasions.
[quote]I'm afraid your mistaken. Her writer clearly states from the beginning that Ashley is not a racist. She never ridicules or mistrusts anyone based on their race. But she does mistrust certain people and factions in the galaxy based on their LOYALTIES.[/quote]
What she imagines their loyalties might be. It's irrelevant regardless because the ship is on a Council mission, not an Alliance one.
[quote]Her concerns when bringing up Garrus and Wrex are not her being nervous/guilty/uncomfortable. Nor does she think it's ugly or prejudiced. She's a Gunnery Chief with security responsibilities. To again quote Malcolm Reed from Star Trek:"We don't know anything about this species, or what they want, or what they hope to gain. And until we know that, we should restrict access to engineering, the armoury and any other sensitive part of the ship."[/quote]
By this time, a great deal is known about turians/krogan/etc, and generally they don't all want to gain one thing.
[quote]You don't let anyone, regardless of how much they say 'they want to help', waltz onto an advanced starship without keeping an eye on them. The dog and bear analogy is her way of saying that if the Council has a problem that they need solved, they'll sic their dog (humanity) on the bear (any alien threat that the Council doesn't want to deal with directly).[/quote]
One area where the author screwed up, as the delivery was completely botched. Shepard already has an eye on them, and what I find quite interesting is that the analogy reverses during the Council decision at the end, with the DA being the dog and Shepard being the human. If Shepard Paragons that choice, she winds up proving Ashley wrong.
[quote]And guess what, her concerns are well justified. Three times, the Council sics humanity on a threat that they don't feel comfortable dealing with themselves. First, the batarians, who were getting too powerful for the Council to control. Then Saren, who they let Shepard deal with, without committing any major military action by themselves. And the latest example is the Collectors. The Council won't take any action themselves, but they let Shepard take care of it, no problem.[/quote]
Humans were extremely happy to deal with the batarians themselves, Saren was a Council project, and they sent the STG after the Collectors but didn't get anywhere concrete.
[quote]Ash isn't a racist by any definition of the term. She doesn't look down on anyone because of their species, or assume any inherent human superiority. Her concerns are simply loyalty, and the knowledge that people will always be more loyal to their own. This COULD be considered racist if you are seriously stretching the bounds of credulity, but as her writer said: She's not. Why is this so difficult to accept?[/quote]
Active looking down is unnecessary. Only dislike is necessary. I believe you and her writer misunderstand the definition of "racism."
[quote]Yes it is. The context in which she says it is not correct.[/quote]
Irrelevant. What matters is what's in the game, not what we wish would be.
#228
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 02:01
Errol Dnamyx
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So, you think that Ash is "racist", no matter how much evidence there is that points to the contrary?
That's interesting. And by interesting, I mean delusional.
That's interesting. And by interesting, I mean delusional.
#229
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 02:03
Xilizhra
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Mildly so. Not in the same sense that, say, Kai Leng is.
#230
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 02:12
Vilio1
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Some of her remarks are clearly racist.
Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters (= romancing Liara). I am no fan of aliens. I can't tell the difference between aliens and animals. Jealous? Of you? You're not even our species!
And those quotes have nothing to do with "partriotism".
Make nice with the bug-eyed monsters (= romancing Liara). I am no fan of aliens. I can't tell the difference between aliens and animals. Jealous? Of you? You're not even our species!
And those quotes have nothing to do with "partriotism".
#231
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 02:24
nitefyre410
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Errol Dnamyx wrote...
So, you think that Ash is "racist", no matter how much evidence there is that points to the contrary?
That's interesting. And by interesting, I mean delusional.
its the arguement that they want to have no matter how many times that is has been proven...completely wrong.
#232
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 02:28
CptData
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^ As I said a few pages ago: if Ashley is a racist, then 99% of mankind is.
"Racist" is a word that's used far too often, especially by fans of "political correctness". I must say I -hate- political correctness as a defender of freedom of speech.
Racism is usually violent or supporting violence. I can't see Ashley supporting active violence against aliens. Ashley fights aliens and humans alike if they're her enemies - and protects them if they need protection.
As I said, if Ashley is racist, then 99% of mankind is racist too. And I'm - don't get me wrong - strong believer in that theory, the majority of people in the western world have lost their ability to think and act objectively. Which is one of the facts why our current world/civilization is at its bad stage and basically dying.
Just my two cents in that field. I'm a racist towards my own species ... now what
"Racist" is a word that's used far too often, especially by fans of "political correctness". I must say I -hate- political correctness as a defender of freedom of speech.
Racism is usually violent or supporting violence. I can't see Ashley supporting active violence against aliens. Ashley fights aliens and humans alike if they're her enemies - and protects them if they need protection.
As I said, if Ashley is racist, then 99% of mankind is racist too. And I'm - don't get me wrong - strong believer in that theory, the majority of people in the western world have lost their ability to think and act objectively. Which is one of the facts why our current world/civilization is at its bad stage and basically dying.
Just my two cents in that field. I'm a racist towards my own species ... now what
Modifié par CptData, 27 janvier 2012 - 02:41 .
#233
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 02:36
Ilkec
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I have to say that Ashley is not a racist, she doesnt like aliens sure but most species dont like any other in mass effect so my guess is that Ashley is one of those who dont trust anyone else
#234
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 02:37
Clayless
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Racism isn't usually violent or supporting violence. You can be racist but not support violence.
#235
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 02:37
HolyAvenger
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CptData wrote...
Racism is usually violent or supporting violence. I can't see Ashley supporting active violence against aliens. Ashley fights aliens and humans alike if they're her enemies - and protects them if they need protection.
BS. I've been racially abused verbally as opposed to any violence and its still racism.
#236
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 02:42
JosephDucreux
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We're still on this topic? Srsly guys?
Alright kids, suspicion of other SPECIES that have traditionally been hostile towards yours is NOT considered racism, NOR is it considered paranoia. It's a perfectly rational suspicion of an intelligent mind. It's ONLY when a person begins to think of an entire species as a collective whole in a derogatory manner based upon false stereotypes is when it becomes racism.
Alright kids, suspicion of other SPECIES that have traditionally been hostile towards yours is NOT considered racism, NOR is it considered paranoia. It's a perfectly rational suspicion of an intelligent mind. It's ONLY when a person begins to think of an entire species as a collective whole in a derogatory manner based upon false stereotypes is when it becomes racism.
#237
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 02:46
CptData
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HolyAvenger wrote...
CptData wrote...
Racism is usually violent or supporting violence. I can't see Ashley supporting active violence against aliens. Ashley fights aliens and humans alike if they're her enemies - and protects them if they need protection.
BS. I've been racially abused verbally as opposed to any violence and its still racism.
Double-Bull: people tend to feel offended to easily, they take things too personal etc.
Just ask people of a certain religion. I won't call a name here - but they have a tendency to burn flags.
That's what I meant by the way ... people don't think objectively.
And that's why I feel ashamed. Despite the fact we can travel to Moon, have computers and mobile phones, we're still stupid apes defending a tiny portion of our territory and property. We're still cave dwellers - in more than one way.
And just for the record: I'm not an inch better than my neighbor. I just know I'm stupid. He doesn't.
Edit:
I'm not saying you shouldn't protect yourself in case you get abused / attacked by racists.
However, you also should learn to -not- take it too personal. Keep in mind: whoever did it is less intelligent than you. Taking it personal degrades yourself. Believe me ... it's really that easy.
And Ash is no racist. She's not abusing any alien, right?
Modifié par CptData, 27 janvier 2012 - 02:50 .
#238
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 02:47
Clayless
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That doesn't negate the fact that she was still racist.
#239
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 02:48
Vilio1
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JosephDucreux wrote...
Alright kids, suspicion of other SPECIES that have traditionally been hostile towards yours is NOT considered racism, NOR is it considered paranoia.
Ashley always brings up aliens in general. She dislikes all non-humans, not just turians.
#240
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 02:49
JosephDucreux
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Vilio1 wrote...
JosephDucreux wrote...
Alright kids, suspicion of other SPECIES that have traditionally been hostile towards yours is NOT considered racism, NOR is it considered paranoia.
Ashley always brings up aliens in general. She dislikes all non-humans, not just turians.
Dislike is the wrong word here. Suspicion is more like it. Also, there's been a long galatic history of every douchebag race for themselves while hanging the others out to dry. I'd say it's fully justified.
#241
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 02:59
HolyAvenger
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CptData wrote...
Double-Bull: people tend to feel offended to easily, they take things too personal etc.
Just ask people of a certain religion. I won't call a name here - but they have a tendency to burn flags.
That's what I meant by the way ... people don't think objectively.
And that's why I feel ashamed. Despite the fact we can travel to Moon, have computers and mobile phones, we're still stupid apes defending a tiny portion of our territory and property. We're still cave dwellers - in more than one way.
And just for the record: I'm not an inch better than my neighbor. I just know I'm stupid. He doesn't.
Edit:
I'm not saying you shouldn't protect yourself in case you get abused / attacked by racists.
However, you also should learn to -not- take it too personal. Keep in mind: whoever did it is less intelligent than you. Taking it personal degrades yourself. Believe me ... it's really that easy.
And Ash is no racist. She's not abusing any alien, right?
Rubbish. Racist verbal abuse is still racist and no one is considered precious for thinking otherwise, and frankly its backwards to think otherwise. Its not a question of being better, its a question of insisting on calling a spade a spade so those who indulge in that kind of behaviour are called out on it. Brushing it off as people-being-people is a tacit sort of approval of those who think that ethnicity or skin colour or any other way of looking different is somehow inferior to themselves.
I'm not sure how some technological progress impedes my ability to recognise discriminator behaviour on the basis of race, and I really don't know why you would think it would be better to ignore rather than call people out on their prejudices, but frankly I don't think you could be more wrong. Taking it without standing up for myself degrades me a lot more than copping it.
As for Ash, she has pretty derogatory dialogue at several points in the game. But that's OK. It adds depth to her character. Whats a compelling character without a couple of flaws.
#242
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 03:04
Xilizhra
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Quite true.^ As I said a few pages ago: if Ashley is a racist, then 99% of mankind is.
I consider this misguided. I believe political correctness is simply a fancy term for not being a jerk."Racist" is a word that's used far too often, especially by fans of "political correctness". I must say I -hate- political correctness as a defender of freedom of speech.
Oftentimes yes, if organized, but that's not necessarily the case for individuals.Racism is usually violent or supporting violence. I can't see Ashley supporting active violence against aliens. Ashley fights aliens and humans alike if they're her enemies - and protects them if they need protection.
Well, Liara is possible.And Ash is no racist. She's not abusing any alien, right?
A single war does not tradition make. That would only apply to batarians.Alright kids, suspicion of other SPECIES that have traditionally been hostile towards yours is NOT considered racism, NOR is it considered paranoia. It's a perfectly rational suspicion of an intelligent mind. It's ONLY when a person begins to think of an entire species as a collective whole in a derogatory manner based upon false stereotypes is when it becomes racism.
#243
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 03:06
jason9880
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
#244
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 03:10
nitefyre410
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CptData wrote...
^ As I said a few pages ago: if Ashley is a racist, then 99% of mankind is.
"Racist" is a word that's used far too often, especially by fans of "political correctness". I must say I -hate- political correctness as a defender of freedom of speech.
Racism is usually violent or supporting violence. I can't see Ashley supporting active violence against aliens. Ashley fights aliens and humans alike if they're her enemies - and protects them if they need protection.
As I said, if Ashley is racist, then 99% of mankind is racist too. And I'm - don't get me wrong - strong believer in that theory, the majority of people in the western world have lost their ability to think and act objectively. Which is one of the facts why our current world/civilization is at its bad stage and basically dying.
Just my two cents in that field. I'm a racist towards my own species ... now what
Racism is not always violent though it can involve violence, It can also be an construction of a system and controll of said system to hold a certain ethinc group down, it can be personally and systematic.
Still the over all point stands ... Ashley not racist that was just...crappy writing and poor quality control on Bioware's part. Trying to make a deep and thoughtfull point at the wrong time and place.
#245
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 03:15
Costin_Razvan
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What I don't understand about this discussion is why does it matter?
If you hate Ashley then you hate Ashley, if you like her you like her. Racism is so overblown out of proportions nowadays, it's like saying because of her supposed racism she is the worst person ever, bull****.
There have been and are people in real life who are prejducided, strongly so, against certain groups of people ( blacks, asians, jews, gypsies etc. ) doesn't mean those people go out of their way to hurt said groups or they can't be nice people.
Racism is only an issue when people actually act based on their prejudices, not because they have them and Ashley never acts like she hates Aliens. Yes she supports Renegade decisions, but that's because she is a pragmatic and at times ruthless woman. She doesn't support killing the Rachni because she instantly hates them as an entire species and feels they deserve extermination, the supports the killing based on cold hard calculation as a soldier to eleminate a strong threat before it can be created.
As for the Council, again killing then is based on cold calculation. You are in a desperate situation with one of the toughest ships to face, it's not racism to see it's a bad idea to squander ships saving a Council.
Bear in mind in both those situations I choose the Paragon path, due to my morality with the Rachni and pragmatism with the Council, I do however understand her viewpoint.
TLDR version: What the hell does it matter if Ashley makes a few supposed racist comments?
If you hate Ashley then you hate Ashley, if you like her you like her. Racism is so overblown out of proportions nowadays, it's like saying because of her supposed racism she is the worst person ever, bull****.
There have been and are people in real life who are prejducided, strongly so, against certain groups of people ( blacks, asians, jews, gypsies etc. ) doesn't mean those people go out of their way to hurt said groups or they can't be nice people.
Racism is only an issue when people actually act based on their prejudices, not because they have them and Ashley never acts like she hates Aliens. Yes she supports Renegade decisions, but that's because she is a pragmatic and at times ruthless woman. She doesn't support killing the Rachni because she instantly hates them as an entire species and feels they deserve extermination, the supports the killing based on cold hard calculation as a soldier to eleminate a strong threat before it can be created.
As for the Council, again killing then is based on cold calculation. You are in a desperate situation with one of the toughest ships to face, it's not racism to see it's a bad idea to squander ships saving a Council.
Bear in mind in both those situations I choose the Paragon path, due to my morality with the Rachni and pragmatism with the Council, I do however understand her viewpoint.
TLDR version: What the hell does it matter if Ashley makes a few supposed racist comments?
Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 27 janvier 2012 - 03:24 .
#246
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 03:16
Clayless
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It's not crappy writing. People stop trying to use that terrible excuse to justify why your favourite character is racist.
#247
Guest_mrsph_*
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 03:17
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Character flaws are character flaws. They make characters better, not worse.
#248
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 03:24
Zkyire
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jreezy wrote...
Not even that.Zkyire wrote...
Species, not race.
Species, not race.
Species, not race.
I know, I wholly support Ashley and think these guys are pretty much wrong.
I'm just a bit miffed by people's constant use of the words 'race' and 'races' when they're referring to species.
#249
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 03:32
nitefyre410
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Our_Last_Scene wrote...
It's not crappy writing. People stop trying to use that terrible excuse to justify why your favourite character is racist.
Oh it is crappy writing she trying to make a analogy about sercuity and letting people that are completely unknown to her and she does not trust around top of the Line state of the art Alliance tech.
and how does Bioware chose to make this comparision
but using and analogy of a bear and DOG.
When awe know people that go back in the burning building, sinking ships and more for their dogs.
If they would have played the whole...
"Sir, nothing against new crew they look plently capicable but are we sure that they should access to ships vitals."
It would have come off a lot better.
The Dog/bear analogy has nothing to do with context of the concerns she is bringing up...
so yes ..its bad writing.
#250
Posté 27 janvier 2012 - 03:35
Xilizhra
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Actually, she at first says that you can't spend human lives to save the Council. She backpedals later.As for the Council, again killing then is based on cold calculation. You are in a desperate situation with one of the toughest ships to face, it's not racism to see it's a bad idea to squander ships saving a Council.
