498 réponses à ce sujet

[Errol Dnamyx]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's not crappy writing. People stop trying to use that terrible excuse to justify why your favourite character is racist.

Shouting " OMG RACISM" at everything doesn't make you look educated.

[CptData]

Xilizhra wrote...

"Racist" is a word that's used far too often, especially by fans of "political correctness". I must say I -hate- political correctness as a defender of freedom of speech.

I consider this misguided. I believe political correctness is simply a fancy term for not being a jerk.

That's a statement often used - and it's a wrong one. You can speak your mind without being a jerk AND without concealing your true opinion with "political correctness".

Actually, there's no need to be "politcal correct". Disabled people -ARE- disabled people: calling them "challenged" people doesn't help them, not a bit. It doesn't make their life easier. DOING something does: use ramps instead of stairs, every (official) information should also come in Braille, help a person in a wheelchair ... DO something.
But don't call them "challenged" to make yourself feeling better.

Currently we do have a tendency to "genderize" words. That's quite visible in Germany: instead of using a neutral word (that sometimes appears to be male) we now use genderized words - just NOT to offend women. Example? "employee" means "der Arbeiter" - it's male. The plural is "die Arbeiter" (employees). Now we have "Arbeiterinnen und Arbeiter" (roughly translated to female employees and male employees) ... just for "political correctness".
Does that help ANYONE?
Does someone who's not using a difference her acting like a jerk?

Two examples of many.

Maybe that's why I enjoy Ash as character. She's not a racist - and she doesn't follow the path of "political correctness". She's straight forward. And although she -might- appear to act like a jerk sometimes, she isn't.
Just keep that in mind.

And Ash is no racist. She's not abusing any alien, right?

Well, Liara is possible.

Nah, not really. Guess Ashley simply dislikes Liara and MAYBE she's not the biggest supporter of the Asari. Her lashing against Liara is caused by jealousy (even if Ash claims she's not jealous) not byracism.


And since you mentioned the Batarians: most of the Batarians you met -were- racists.
"You, Sir, you are a blight!"

Now compare the ordinary Batarian merc and Ash.

Modifié par CptData, 27 janvier 2012 - 03:58 .

[V-rex]

Egh.
I just don't have the strength or interest to continue this debate anymore. It's been five years (roughly) since Mass Effect 1 came out and the debate hasn't gone away no matter how involved I get in it.
In any case I've matured enough to admit that it's entirely possible that my favorite character has flaws. I have grudgingly and not without extreme difficulty come to terms with the fact that anyone who doesn't like the VS after Horizon is justified in doing so, even though it doesn't change how I feel for the character.
Likewise over the years I've finally, through a combination of wearing me down and lack of interest in continuing arguing, dropped the pretense that there isn't some justification in the argument that Ashley can be slightly xenophobic from time to time.

I would never go as far as to call her 'racist' because to me at least 'racist' is a very strong and very loaded word. One that carries with it far too many negative implications and conjurs up extreme images that distort the way Ashley actually is.
Plus it's not uncommon for me to walk in on discussion about her on the internet where she gets likened to the SS and people declare that she 'kills in the name of her god because she believes humanity is the divine ascension of the universe' despite her saying (and doing) a lot to the contrary.
To me conceding that she's 'racist' would also mean, or has the potential to also mean, that I'm in any way agreeing with those shouty obnoxious sh*ts. So while I'm willing to concede that Ashley certainly has her problems with aliens, she also has her good points as well.

Frankly I'd rather focus on the good points about Ashley, that she's a caring sister, a devoted daughter, a determined fighter. That she's compassionate to people who have lost loved ones, that she's principled and ready to fight and die for what she believes in. That she's burdened by prejudice and bad history but is able to work through it and ultimatley even (potentially) break free of it and embrace a new and better way of looking at the world.

That's the Ashley Williams I see. Not a perfect woman, but a good woman nonetheless. I don't and cannot deny her flaws, but to me at least they are trivial when compared to her qualities.

Plus if the leaked script dialogues are any indication, she seems to have kicked her attitude regarding aliens in the head in a good way if at least one line in particular is any indication (the way she reacts when she finds out Shepard's dating Tali might just come as a massive surprise to the troglodyte community of youtube). I am hopeful for that because I admit I loved everything about Ashley save for her attitude regarding aliens, which I always felt were in need of improvement. Fortunatley signs are showing that they might well be and I'm hopeful for that much at least.

EDIT: Also going to bed postpone any replied until about ten hours or so.

Modifié par V-rex, 27 janvier 2012 - 04:01 .

[Xilizhra]

Nah, not really. Guess Ashley simply dislikes Liara and MAYBE she's not the biggest supporter of the Asari. Her lashing against Liara is caused by jealousy (even if Ash claims she's not jealous) not byracism.

For Femshep as well? Intriguing.

And since you mentioned the Batarians: most of the Batarians you met -were- racists.
"You, Sir, you are a blight!"

Now compare the ordinary Batarian merc and Ash.

Er, relevance?
Of course, Ashley never talks in anything batarian-related, as no companions do in BDtS and she's absent for them in ME2...

[Spoiledrotten]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's not crappy writing. People stop trying to use that terrible excuse to justify why your favourite character is racist.

Says the dude with Garrus for his avatar. He is at least as bigoted as Ashley, and he doesn't have the excuse of not working with the aliens.

Ash isn't racist. She is blunt, patriotic, and she is politically pragmatic. But she doesn't feel superior to aliens, nor does she hate anyone because they're alien. She only fears the queen because she is rachni, but so does everyone. The Council, Garrus, Tali and Wrex.

She snaps at Liara because she's jealous. Like Liara said, she is especially hostile because she never had a rival like Liara. That doesn't mean she hates aliens, just that she doesn't know how to handle the situation.

Elcor and hanar don't look any more sentient than the keepers, yet they are. Hence she can't tell the aliens from the animals. Next thing you'll be telling me that rachni don't look like bugs.

She's not a fan of aliens, sure, but does that mean she hates them? I'm not a fan of any group of people, but that doesn't make a misanthrope, it just mean that I don't have much love for any specific group of people. I'm not a fan of plants, but that doesn't mean I like it when people cut down forests.

She doesn’t trust Garrus and Wrex? No, she just doesn’t trust them on the Normandy, Alliance vessel. It’s been less than twenty years since first contact war, tensions never really passed and they are rising again. If another war starts, humanity doesn’t need turians knowing every nook and cranny of their ships.

There are quotes that sound bad out of context, yes. But when you read into them, they're not so bad. And besides, there are even more quotes and situations that sound good and alien-friendly, but people who hate Ash always choose to ignore those, like they ignore signs of bigotry in their alien buddies Garrus and Wrex.


Ash hates Terra Firma because they are racist, she says this. She may be an Earth-centrist, but she doesn’t want to stand with xenophobes.
She hates Cerberus as well, a very pro-human agenda group because she knows that what they are doing is extremist and wrong, regardless of the causes they claim.
She hopes that Tali's work on stopping Seren will change people's minds about quarians.
She'd like to live on the Citadel.
She says she doesn't think that humanity is superior.
Even though she doesn't like Liara personally, she feels compassion for her and urges Shepard to talk to her. Twice. To an alien she doesn’t even like on a personal level.
She gladly follows a salarian commander without any urging on Shepard's part. I don't even remember her mentioning their species.
Finally, her writer explicitly said that she isn't racist.


Ash isn't perfect, she isn't an idealist or a very liberal and open person, but you can't in all seriousness compare her to racist scum we have right here, right now. Cops who arrest innocents and plant drugs on them, people who lynch and intimidate people so that they’d leave their homes, people who wish genocide, people who can’t even view others as people. That’s insane.

Anyway, I'm done, I'm tired of this issue, it's not like I can change anyone's mind.

Modifié par Spoiledrotten, 27 janvier 2012 - 04:28 .

[nitefyre410]

Spoiledrotten wrote...

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

It's not crappy writing. People stop trying to use that terrible excuse to justify why your favourite character is racist.

Says the dude with Garrus for his avatar. He is at least as bigoted as Ashley, and he doesn't have the excuse of not working with the aliens.

Ash isn't racist. She is blunt, patriotic, and she is politically pragmatic. But she doesn't feel superior to aliens, nor does she hate anyone because they're alien. She only fears the queen because she is rachni, but so does everyone. The Council, Garrus, Tali and Wrex.

She snaps at Liara because she's jealous. Like Liara said, she is especially hostile because she never had a rival like Liara. That doesn't mean she hates aliens, just that she doesn't know how to handle the situation.

Elcor and hanar don't look any more sentient than the keepers, yet they are. Hence she can't tell the aliens from the animals. Next thing you'll be telling me that rachni don't look like bugs.

She's not a fan of aliens, sure, but does that mean she hates them? I'm not a fan of any group of people, but that doesn't make a misanthrope, it just mean that I don't have much love for any specific group of people. I'm not a fan of plants, but that doesn't mean I like it when people cut down forests.

She doesn’t trust Garrus and Wrex? No, she just doesn’t trust them on the Normandy, Alliance vessel. It’s been less than twenty years since first contact war, tensions never really passed and they are rising again. If another war starts, humanity doesn’t need turians knowing every nook and cranny of their ships.

There are quotes that sound bad out of context, yes. But when you read into them, they're not so bad. And besides, there are even more quotes and situations that sound good and alien-friendly, but people who hate Ash always choose to ignore those, like they ignore signs of bigotry in their alien buddies Garrus and Wrex.


Ash hates Terra Firma because they are racist, she says this. She may be an Earth-centrist, but she doesn’t want to stand with xenophobes.
She hates Cerberus as well, a very pro-human agenda group because she knows that what they are doing is extremist and wrong, regardless of the causes they claim.
She hopes that Tali's work on stopping Seren will change people's minds about quarians.
She'd like to live on the Citadel.
She says she doesn't think that humanity is superior.
Even though she doesn't like Liara personally, she feels compassion for her and urges Shepard to talk to her. Twice. To an alien she doesn’t even like on a personal level.
She gladly follows a salarian commander without any urging on Shepard's part. I don't even remember her mentioning their species.
Finally, her writer explicitly said that she isn't racist.


Ash isn't perfect, she isn't an idealist or a very liberal and open person, but you can't in all seriousness compare her to racist scum we have right here, right now. Cops who arrest innocents and plant drugs on them, people who lynch and intimidate people so that they’d leave their homes, people who wish genocide, people who can’t even view others as people. That’s insane.

Anyway, I'm done, I'm tired of this issue, it's not like I can change anyone's mind.

 

My friend you are talking common sense to a group of people that sense is not all the common among.. 

i know these facts 

you do as well..but others...eh not some much.

[Nashiktal]

HolyAvenger wrote...

Really? A trained, educated human marine can't tell the asari, turians, salarians, volus, elcor and hanar apart from the Keepers? Here's a hint Ash, the aliens are the ones who're talking.

Yes really. Its one thing to hear about aliens, its another thing to see them in the flesh. Hanar communicate using lights, don't wear visible clothing, and you wouldn't even know they were sapient until you talk to one.

Keeper's don't talk, but wear what looks like clothing, operate machinery, yet are entirely unintelligent and act completely on base instinct like an animal.


Not to mention that the alliance has only been a part of the galactic community for 30 years. (writers have no sense of scale. >.>) Ashly would not have had any formal education, and any she did get would be a barebones briefing. Hell she wasn't even deployed in non human area's.

[terdferguson123]

Made Nightwing wrote...


Pardon me while I laugh my arse off at your overweening arrogance. You assume that YOU know what her created personality is? Rather than say, her writer? The same writer who said that Ashley IS NOT racist, but rather cautious and brutally pragmatic, holding no hate toward aliens, or any belief that humans are inherently superior.

Pragmatic - Dealing or concerned with facts or actual occurrences; practical

Go ahead and laugh all you want, I'm going to laugh at the fact that you think a person who believes in god in a time of space travel is "brutally pragmatic"

In fact, I would go so far to say that Ashley is the least cautious and pragmatic companion you obtain in Mass Effect 1.

Commander Shepard - "When I want an opinion from the head, I go to Alenko. When I want an opinion from the heart I go to you Williams"

Even Shepard thinks she is emotionally driven rather than pragmatic.


Also, I don't care how she was "written" I am concerned how she is in the game. And it's pretty obvious she is definately NOT pragmatic because she barely uses facts for anything she supports. She is also NOT overly cautious considering she continuously says hurtful things to the aliens you meet throughout the game, who she is just SO sure will backstab her.

Modifié par terdferguson123, 27 janvier 2012 - 11:08 .

[Eclipse_9990]

SAGEHONOR wrote...

I've called a black person a monkey before. Does that mean im racist. That line gives the impression she's making fun of the alien she was talking about. That doesn't imply racism.

HAHAHAHAHAHA! All your credibility just flew right out the proverbial window!

SAGEHONOR wrote... 

I wasn't serious. I was trying to give an example.

Suuuuuuuuuuuure. 

[Halfdan The Menace]

I remember Ashley saying she want to kiss turians, in ME1.

[Clayless]

Someone above pointed out that Garrus is as bigoted as Ashley.

So? How does that in negate how racist Ashley is?

People wouldn't be calling her racist if she wasn't. If she states she's changed in ME3, then it means she acknowledged the fact that she was racist beforehand. If she doesn't mention it, then she's most likely going to be her same old racist self.

[Drone223]

Our_Last_Scene wrote...

Someone above pointed out that Garrus is as bigoted as Ashley.

So? How does that in negate how racist Ashley is?

People wouldn't be calling her racist if she wasn't. If she states she's changed in ME3, then it means she acknowledged the fact that she was racist beforehand. If she doesn't mention it, then she's most likely going to be her same old racist self.

She never hated alien's she is just cautious about working with them, she never said anything about aliens being inferior to human's or how humanity should be the ones incharge, her concern's with Garrus and Wrex were about being able to use advance Alliance technology since Turian's and Krogan are very aggresive species, however she has no issue's with Tali working in the engine room in fact she never says anything bad about Quarian's she actually has sympathy for them even though they created the Geth  

Modifié par Drone223, 28 janvier 2012 - 02:57 .

[Lucifer_Cheney]

I feel that Ashley-like most people who're unfamiliar/uncomfortable with a topic-is ignorant. Depending on how your Shepard interacts with her, you can educate and enlighten her to the point she softens and reassess her position.

Also as far as that "I'm no fan of aliens" line, the thing that those in the "Ashley is a racist" camp fail to acknowledge is that in spite of her issues with aliens, she has a HUGE problem with Shepard working for an organization that promotes human superiority at the expense of other races.

[nitefyre410]

Lucifer_Cheney wrote...

I feel that Ashley-like most people who're unfamiliar/uncomfortable with a topic-is ignorant. Depending on how your Shepard interacts with her, you can educate and enlighten her to the point she softens and reassess her position.

Also as far as that "I'm no fan of aliens" line, the thing that those in the "Ashley is a racist" camp fail to acknowledge is that in spite of her issues with aliens, she has a HUGE problem with Shepard working for an organization that promotes human superiority at the expense of other races.

 

Rule 1.


never let the facts get in the way of a good agruement.   

[Xilizhra]

I feel that Ashley-like most people who're unfamiliar/uncomfortable with a topic-is ignorant. Depending on how your Shepard interacts with her, you can educate and enlighten her to the point she softens and reassess her position.

Only if you're male, and even then, it doesn't last.

Also as far as that "I'm no fan of aliens" line, the thing that those in the "Ashley is a racist" camp fail to acknowledge is that in spite of her issues with aliens, she has a HUGE problem with Shepard working for an organization that promotes human superiority at the expense of other races.

And is considered a terrorist organization by the Alliance. Supposedly abandoning them is the main problem in her mind.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

I feel that Ashley-like most people who're unfamiliar/uncomfortable with a topic-is ignorant. Depending on how your Shepard interacts with her, you can educate and enlighten her to the point she softens and reassess her position.

Only if you're male romance her, and even then, it doesn't last.

Also as far as that "I'm no fan of aliens" line, the thing that those in the "Ashley is a racist" camp fail to acknowledge is that in spite of her issues with aliens, she has a HUGE problem with Shepard working for an organization that promotes human superiority at the expense of other races.

And is considered a terrorist organization by the Alliance. Supposedly abandoning them is the main problem in her mind.

Fix'd.

[Lucifer_Cheney]

Xilizhra wrote...

I feel that Ashley-like most people who're unfamiliar/uncomfortable with a topic-is ignorant. Depending on how your Shepard interacts with her, you can educate and enlighten her to the point she softens and reassess her position.

Only if you're male, and even then, it doesn't last.

Also as far as that "I'm no fan of aliens" line, the thing that those in the "Ashley is a racist" camp fail to acknowledge is that in spite of her issues with aliens, she has a HUGE problem with Shepard working for an organization that promotes human superiority at the expense of other races.

And is considered a terrorist organization by the Alliance. Supposedly abandoning them is the main problem in her mind.

I'll grant you that Ashley has a prejudice toward aliens (provided you didn't or couldn't romance her), however,  its not racism due to the fact that she doesn't believe humanity is better than non-humans.

Edit: BTW That prejudice is primarily based in the still tenuous relationship between humans and Turians as a result of the First Contact War.

Modifié par Lucifer_Cheney, 28 janvier 2012 - 03:39 .

[Xilizhra]

I'll grant you that Ashley has a prejudice toward aliens (provided you didn't or couldn't romance her), however, its not racism due to the fact that she doesn't believe humanity is better than non-humans.

Prejudice=racism. Or, in this case, speciesism.

[Ryzaki]

jreezy wrote...
You made it worse.

But that's the only way to paragon her. Which is immensely annoying.

[Peer of the Empire]

Ashley's views are normal and healthy