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[shepard1038]

she only did what she was supposed to do, he was pointing a gun at shepard

[1136342t54_]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

@Ryzaki. You're judging Wrex by human standards. A human might not have killed Shepard in anger. But if Wrex was angry enough and felt that Shepard was a whining little worm, then he would have killed him, it's the most obvious option.

And that's judging him just because of his race.

Where is he insunating that Shep's a whining little worm or that killing Shep is the obvious solution?

BlueMagitek wrote...
Well, Shep *would*.  He's not Zaeed or Kai Leng; no killing a Krogan in a knife fight for him.  
Seriously
though, not only does it remove the blood from Shepard's hands, but it
takes the risk out of just allowing Shepard to try and wrestle a gun
from a Krogan.

I think it's more like:

Shepard:  Wrex,
listen, I only have four party members.  If you leave the party, I only
have three.  Up ahead, my fellow Alliance marines are going to split up.
 That leaves me to take on Saren with Tali.
Wrex:  *huff* Fiiiiiiine.
Tali:  I'm standing right here!

It's more racist to judge Wrex by our standards, then by a krogans (going by what Legion says). If I'm a krogan, I'm being told that I can't retrieve the cure for my people by a person that I don't respect, is inferior to me, and is standing in my way. I'm angry, I have a gun in my hands, and he's pointing one at me. Instant justification.

Actually Ethnocentrism 

[Destroy Raiden_]

She's not even a xenophobic she just doesn't like them that much considering aliens are the only reason the brass has to hold up as the reason why no one in her family can become more then a private no matter what they do they say your grandfather started the entire war so no Williams will ever become great ever you think she's not going to be upset by that? And its more towards the brass then Aliens as she so famously says you tell me to kiss a Turian I say which cheek showing she'll work with them and keep any opinions to herself racist don't do that they let you know and if you need to work with said racist they let you know they've got a problem with you because of your race all the time.

Her comments on aliens like a dog will be sacrificed to save a human is true an alien would also sacrifice a human if it meant their survival in real life so that's just a fact. 9 people out of 10 would pick Legion to go and die so an organic crew member doesn't have to.

Other lines Ash gives out were meant to be a reflection of player who've never played space games or seen too many aliens. I can relate to Ash's comment about how she couldn't tell if the aliens she saw were indeed people or animals because when I first saw an Elcor I thought it was a monster that was going to eat me if I got too close! Really I thought it was guarding something until I found more talking Elcor and realized I was wrong. Ash living in the boondocks with maybe 1 alien a year coming through it hasn't seen many aliens her take on being on the Citadel is very plausible. I don't think anyone rolled out of bed saw a planet's worth of aliens and went cool that's a pet and thats an alien more like they would be like it's all the same to me until I understand more.

We do have real racist in the game Ash however isn't one of them Saren is one, Cerberus, Garrus's dad, the batarian bartender who poisons shep, the batarian preacher screaming how humans are a blight, the dying batarian until you cure him, the 60% of the universe vs the Quarian fleet, turians against humans, that political turian who you save from Koyat hes really racist and doesn't even try to hide it, the list goes on and on. Ash has reasons to not trust and be alittle bitter towards some alien races but name the culture in ME who doesn't have a racist in it you can't. People want so badly to believe she's in the racist group from some reason which her character as a whole when you speak to her and actually listen to her doesn't support this claim. She's about as racist towards aliens as Presley was they both shared similar distrust and issues with aliens funny how no ones crying he was one. You can distrust people that doesn't make you a racist.

[Zjarcal]

... right.

[Ryzaki]

BlueMagitek wrote...
Well, yeah, that just kind of happens sometimes.  I mean, it isn't like the team knows that ahead of time and are just keeping Wrex out of the loop.  For all they know it's a legit cure that puts the ol' quad to double it's pre-Genophage effectiveness.

I think there initially was going to be an option to try and find the cure, but it was cut out.  I mean, it isn't like it's just Shepard's team, the STG (inflictors of the genophage) are right there; I doubt they'd appreciate Shepard taking his sweet time to find a way to reverse the thing they're so proud of.

The STG doesn't help Shepard on his side of the base though. And he runs right through the room where they're growing more Krogan. *sighs* I hate cut content.

Made Nightwing wrote...
It's more racist to judge Wrex by our standards, then by a krogans (going by what Legion says). If I'm a krogan, I'm being told that I can't retrieve the cure for my people by a person that I don't respect, is inferior to me, and is standing in my way. I'm angry, I have a gun in my hands, and he's pointing one at me. Instant justification.

Legion isn't an organic being. He relies on multiple "minds" to even be able to think and speak. Wrex doesn't need to rely on software and he can't be uploaded into another unit if his goes bad. So no I'm not seeing it as more racist to see Wrex as a being capable of acting outside the sterotypical constrains of his race. Especially not since that's exactly what he does in ME2.

Plus using your logic I suppose all humans if given power will devolve into disgusting beings like Taylor. Should be careful humans aren't given too much power over other beings then. Since with humans power corrupts.

1136342t54 wrote...
Wrex is known to get very very agressive and irrational when it comes to protecting his people. On Sur'Kesh Wrex is ready to take on a Salarian base to get the Krogan females. Only Shepard is able to calm him down just like last time. 

Shepard could have offered the cure but didn't. Blame Bioware for not giving us the choice.

True enough I'm just not seeing him as stupid enough to think he can take out Shep, the STG, the crew of the Normandy and then Saren's ilk and get the cure and leave. I just don't see him being that damn dumb.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 janvier 2012 - 01:08 .

[OrdinaryTenant]

Here's what I'm thinking... if Wrex agreed to serve on an Alliance ship, under a human commanding officer, does that not also mean he agreed to at least abide by, if not adopt outright, human/human-military standards of behavior and conduct (including NOT pointing guns at his commander)?

So, in that sense wouldn't Ashley (and every other member of the Normandy crew, ftm) be deficient in their own duty as soldiers if they DIDN'T shoot Wrex once he pulled out a gun on Shepard?

Modifié par OrdinaryTenant, 29 janvier 2012 - 01:08 .

[Ryzaki]

OrdinaryTenant wrote...

Here's what I'm thinking... if Wrex agreed to serve on an Alliance ship, under a human commanding officer, does that not also mean he agreed to at least abide by, if not adopt outright, human/human-military standards of behavior and conduct (including NOT pointing guns at his commander)?

So, in that sense wouldn't Ashley (and every other member of the Normandy crew, ftm) be deficient in their own duty as soldiers if they DIDN'T shoot Wrex once he pulled out a gun on Shepard?

Heh. If this is true it'll serve as perfect justification for more than just Wrex.

[BlueMagitek]

Ryzaki wrote...

The STG doesn't help Shepard on his side of the base though. And he runs right through the room where they're growing more Krogan. *sighs* I hate cut content.

No, but I'd imagine they'd be aware of the conversation; they seem to be big on sticking their fingers where they don't belong. 

[Made Nightwing]

@Ryzaki. With humans, power DOES corrupt. That's why we install checks and balances into our government and military services to make sure that the corruption has little chance of taking root.

[OrdinaryTenant]

Ryzaki wrote...

OrdinaryTenant wrote...

Here's what I'm thinking... if Wrex agreed to serve on an Alliance ship, under a human commanding officer, does that not also mean he agreed to at least abide by, if not adopt outright, human/human-military standards of behavior and conduct (including NOT pointing guns at his commander)?

So, in that sense wouldn't Ashley (and every other member of the Normandy crew, ftm) be deficient in their own duty as soldiers if they DIDN'T shoot Wrex once he pulled out a gun on Shepard?

Heh. If this is true it'll serve as perfect justification for more than just Wrex.

Like what?

[Ryzaki]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

The STG doesn't help Shepard on his side of the base though. And he runs right through the room where they're growing more Krogan. *sighs* I hate cut content.

No, but I'd imagine they'd be aware of the conversation; they seem to be big on sticking their fingers where they don't belong. 

I doubt Shepard would let the STG bug him. And even if they did what could they do? Run all the way across the base just to yell at Shep probably getting themselves killed in the process and ruining the whole operation?

Worst I see is them telling the council and well. Too late by then.

[Ryzaki]

Made Nightwing wrote...

@Ryzaki. With humans, power DOES corrupt. That's why we install checks and balances into our government and military services to make sure that the corruption has little chance of taking root.

And yet those balances are not enough and it corrupts anyway. Humans should not have a lot of power. Period. Especially not over galatic policy. Those aliens are right to fear and distrust humans because of their quick expansion of power. They should also start restricting human power over galatic policy. Since you know the second a human gets too much power everything will go to hell.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 janvier 2012 - 01:13 .

[1136342t54_]

Ryzaki wrote...
True enough I'm just not seeing him as stupid enough to think he can take out Shep, the STG, the crew of the Normandy and then Saren's ilk and get the cure and leave. I just don't see him being that damn dumb.

Remember Wrex isn't normally that stupid but due to ME1 and ME3 we see that when the fate of his very race is brought up he is very irrational and pissed off. We see him attempt to solo a Salarian Base filled with STG until Shepard calms him down. Wrex is usually calm but when the fate of the Krogan is brought up he usually isn't.

[Made Nightwing]

Ryzaki wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

@Ryzaki. With humans, power DOES corrupt. That's why we install checks and balances into our government and military services to make sure that the corruption has little chance of taking root.

And yet those balances are not enough and it corrupts anyway. Humans should not have a lot of power. Period.

Unless they are wise and righteous enough to use that power efficiently, but such men and women are few and far between.

So you agree, then? We have to judge a species on past and present behaviour?

[Ryzaki]

1136342t54 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...
True enough I'm just not seeing him as stupid enough to think he can take out Shep, the STG, the crew of the Normandy and then Saren's ilk and get the cure and leave. I just don't see him being that damn dumb.

Remember Wrex isn't normally that stupid but due to ME1 and ME3 we see that when the fate of his very race is brought up he is very irrational and pissed off. We see him attempt to solo a Salarian Base filled with STG until Shepard calms him down. Wrex is usually calm but when the fate of the Krogan is brought up he usually isn't.

Which is why I can see him taking on Saren's base on his own. Adding to his enemies when there's no need to do it? Don't see that. Plus Wrex had Shep's backup with the STG (whether Shep wants to help or not) Wrex has a huge bargining chip in his favor. The likehood of the salarians killing him (or Shep letting them) was minimal.

[Ryzaki]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

@Ryzaki. With humans, power DOES corrupt. That's why we install checks and balances into our government and military services to make sure that the corruption has little chance of taking root.

And yet those balances are not enough and it corrupts anyway. Humans should not have a lot of power. Period.

Unless they are wise and righteous enough to use that power efficiently, but such men and women are few and far between.

So you agree, then? We have to judge a species on past and present behaviour?

Not at all. Using that judgement would have humanity severely limited in what they could or couldn't do simply because being humans they would all have to be corrupt if power got into their hands. Their are people who have been given copious amounts of power and didn't act like complete tools. If they hadn't had that power plenty of good things would never have occured.

Using that line of thinking I'm pretty sure the alliance would not have been allowed to get as far as it did so quickly either if we're gonna stick with ME. Humans would probably be banned from positions with little oversight as well.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 janvier 2012 - 01:17 .

[Made Nightwing]

In small amounts, and with the right training, then yes, humans are capable of handling power, but never in overly large amounts. Give a human infinite power and I will show you a tyrant.

Likewise, if we judge that Wrex becomes angry and irrational where the fate of his species is concerned, then logic dictates he would revert back to his krogan nature. Shoot first and ask questions later.

Modifié par Made Nightwing, 29 janvier 2012 - 01:18 .

[BlueMagitek]

Ryzaki wrote...

I doubt Shepard would let the STG bug him. And even if they did what could they do? Run all the way across the base just to yell at Shep probably getting themselves killed in the process and ruining the whole operation?

Worst I see is them telling the council and well. Too late by then.

Which would put a monsoon on Human/Council relations.  Or as Udina would say:

[Ryzaki]

Made Nightwing wrote...

In small amounts, and with the right training, then yes, humans are capable of handling power, but never in large amounts. Give a human infinite power and I will show you a tyrant.

Likewise, if we judge that Wrex becomes angry and irrational where the fate of his species is concerned, then logic dictates he would revert back to his krogan nature. Shoot first and ask questions later.

And there have been no people with vast amounts of power that used it for the benefit of their people right?

Yeah I'm not hoping on that train of thought. Shooting Shepard when Shep isn't actually threatening nor hindering him (because yes the threats are optional) boggles me. It's making an unnecessary enemy.

BlueMagitek wrote...
Which would put a monsoon on Human/Council relations.  Or as Udina would say:

Udina can kiss my Shep's ass.

Plus it's not like Shep running around with Cerberus made human/council relations much better.

[1136342t54_]

Ryzaki wrote...

Which is why I can see him taking on Saren's base on his own. Adding to his enemies when there's no need to do it? Don't see that. Plus Wrex had Shep's backup with the STG (whether Shep wants to help or not) Wrex has a huge bargining chip in his favor. The likehood of the salarians killing him (or Shep letting them) was minimal.

Wrex was ready to start a fight at that base even without Shepard's help. Now if your stretching that and saying Wrex wasn't really going to do anything then there really is no point in continuing. Wrex had one team helping him against an entire base filled with spec ops who have nearly every present advantage. Shepard isn't a good enough of a bargaining chip and the Salarians weren't unwilling to start a fight if Wrex pressed. All Wrex did was get forced to stay at the landing pad and it was a show of how pissed he gets when the fate of his people is on the line. 

[Made Nightwing]

@Ryzaki. And you're willing to chance that Wrex wouldn't? I've given my reasoning for why he would. You've applied human logic for why he wouldn't. But he's not human. It's impossible to expect him to react according to our standards of behaviour.

(Also, it's an undisputable fact that Monarchy leads to Tyrrany. You have long periods of just monarchy in the ancient City of Rome (before the Republic and Empire) and even longer periods of just monarchy in Ancient Greece, but all came to nought because sooner or later, the monarchs would become tyrants, corrupted by their power)

[Ryzaki]

1136342t54 wrote...
Wrex was ready to start a fight at that base even without Shepard's help. Now if your stretching that and saying Wrex wasn't really going to do anything then there really is no point in continuing. Wrex had one team helping him against an entire base filled with spec ops who have nearly every present advantage. Shepard isn't a good enough of a bargaining chip and the Salarians weren't unwilling to start a fight if Wrex pressed. All Wrex did was get forced to stay at the landing pad and it was a show of how pissed he gets when the fate of his people is on the line. 

I'm not saying Wrex really wasn't going to do anything. (He throws those salarians right the hell out of his way). I'm just not seeing him killing anyone unless you know...they got in his way and tried to stop him from getting the females.

I'm just saying it's not utterly horrible odds like you're claiming. It's nowhere near as bad as his odds at Virmire.

[Ryzaki]

Made Nightwing wrote...

@Ryzaki. And you're willing to chance that Wrex wouldn't? I've given my reasoning for why he would. You've applied human logic for why he wouldn't. But he's not human. It's impossible to expect him to react according to our standards of behaviour.

(Also, it's an undisputable fact that Monarchy leads to Tyrrany. You have long periods of just monarchy in the ancient City of Rome (before the Republic and Empire) and even longer periods of just monarchy in Ancient Greece, but all came to nought because sooner or later, the monarchs would become tyrants, corrupted by their power)

Yes I am.

Expecting Wrex not want to add to his problems and give himself the best chance of getting the cure safely is expecting him to react to human standards of behavior? Especially when human standards of behavior vary widely depending on where and when you live? Especially when Wrex was written and designed by humans? You really want to go there? You really want to act like the aliens in ME are actually truly aliens and don't act like humans at all? That they don't vary widely in behavior and can surprise people? 

The only aliens that actually seem alien to me are the Geth. That's it.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 janvier 2012 - 01:32 .

[BlueMagitek]

Ryzaki wrote...

Udina can kiss my Shep's ass.

Plus it's not like Shep running around with Cerberus made human/council relations much better.

Oh come on now, who hasn't been running around with Cerberus at some point?  You read those Shadow Broker files, Asari Matriarchs love them some three headed dog.