498 réponses à ce sujet

[OrdinaryTenant]

Made Nightwing wrote...
(Also, it's an undisputable fact that Monarchy leads to Tyrrany. You have long periods of just monarchy in the ancient City of Rome (before the Republic and Empire) and even longer periods of just monarchy in Ancient Greece, but all came to nought because sooner or later, the monarchs would become tyrants, corrupted by their power)

In fairness, more "democratic" or "republican" forms of government have also historically lead to tyranny. 

I'm just sayin', such tendencies seem to be a part of human nature at a very basic level.

Modifié par OrdinaryTenant, 29 janvier 2012 - 01:31 .

[Ryzaki]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Udina can kiss my Shep's ass.

Plus it's not like Shep running around with Cerberus made human/council relations much better.

Oh come on now, who hasn't been running around with Cerberus at some point?  You read those Shadow Broker files, Asari Matriarchs love them some three headed dog.

Seriously though that really should have had more of an impact than it did. Worse that happens is a few people call you traitor and let you walk right on by.

[Made Nightwing]

Again, you're expecting him to think before acting. He's not thinking. He's PISSED OFF. Shepard's in his face, either placating him with saccharine excuses, threatening him, or insulting him. Hell, if we're going by human standards of behaviour, I wouldn't tolerate it (although I'd lean to more kicking him in the balls than shooting him).

He's an alien. Not human. He's angry, not thinking. The odds are better than even that he'd blow Shepard's head off without a second thought if pushed just a bit too far. But since the game can't let Shepard be a victim of his own stupidity, it has to have Ash standing by as a last ditch option.

[Made Nightwing]

OrdinaryTenant wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...
(Also, it's an undisputable fact that Monarchy leads to Tyrrany. You have long periods of just monarchy in the ancient City of Rome (before the Republic and Empire) and even longer periods of just monarchy in Ancient Greece, but all came to nought because sooner or later, the monarchs would become tyrants, corrupted by their power)

In fairness, more "democratic" or "republican" forms of government have also historically lead to tyranny. 

I'm just sayin', such tendencies seem to be a part of human nature at a very basic level.

Boy, that was a frustrating semester of history. Going through Cicero, Plato, and every other political writer and NOWHERE can we find a system that is absolutely free of corruption. Either the tyrant takes over the monarchy, or the republic/democracy just gets hijacked.

[Ryzaki]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Again, you're expecting him to think before acting. He's not thinking. He's PISSED OFF. Shepard's in his face, either placating him with saccharine excuses, threatening him, or insulting him. Hell, if we're going by human standards of behaviour, I wouldn't tolerate it (although I'd lean to more kicking him in the balls than shooting him).

He's an alien. Not human. He's angry, not thinking. The odds are better than even that he'd blow Shepard's head off without a second thought if pushed just a bit too far. But since the game can't let Shepard be a victim of his own stupidity, it has to have Ash standing by as a last ditch option.

So what it's common behavior to kill someone if you're angry even if that person isn't at all threatening you or trying to stop you from leaving? 

*shrugs* this is going in circles. Suffice to say we disagree.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 janvier 2012 - 01:36 .

[Made Nightwing]

@Ryzaki. Also, if we ever met real aliens, I don't expect them to be at all like us. But when BioWare made the krogan, they sure took a lot of inspiration from the Klingons. Wrex is the 'Proud Warrior Race' guy. He just wouldn't tolerate it.

[1136342t54_]

Ryzaki wrote...
I'm not saying Wrex really wasn't going to do anything. (He throws those salarians right the hell out of his way). I'm just not seeing him killing anyone unless you know...they got in his way and tried to stop him from getting the females.

I'm just saying it's not utterly horrible odds like you're claiming. It's nowhere near as bad as his odds at Virmire.

Its bad odds. He has snipers aiming at his face, STG all around (they are NOT push overs) and the rest of the base is filled with military personnel. Odds of survival isn't good at all and it would only start a conflict that makes things worse. I doubt Shepard would actually do something like that when they need the Council races help.

[Ryzaki]

Made Nightwing wrote...

@Ryzaki. Also, if we ever met real aliens, I don't expect them to be at all like us. But when BioWare made the krogan, they sure took a lot of inspiration from the Klingons. Wrex is the 'Proud Warrior Race' guy. He just wouldn't tolerate it.

Neither would I. But aliens that were designed by humans? Yes I expect them to have human attributes. We can't help it. It bleeds in because it's what we know.

Wrex doesn't have to tolerate-

Yup not jumping on that again. Just not. Already agreed to disagree.

[BlueMagitek]

Ryzaki wrote...



Seriously though that really should have had more of an impact than it did. Worse that happens is a few people call you traitor and let you walk right on by.

Eh, probably, I don't think you should have been able to get onto the Citadel, but apparently Anderson/Udina covers for you. And Hackett is covering for you too.  So you've got Three Stooges Angels watching over Shep.  

[Made Nightwing]

With the info we have about the krogan society, along with the reactions we've gotten from every single other krogan (remember how Grunt tried to kill Shepard when he woke up?), yeah, it probably is common behaviour. The krogan culture may seem mindlessly violent, but BioWare actually wrote it pretty subtly.

They have standards of behaviour, and Shepard just waltzes across them, even with the most neutral dialogue.

[Ryzaki]

1136342t54 wrote...
Its bad odds. He has snipers aiming at his face, STG all around (they are NOT push overs) and the rest of the base is filled with military personnel. Odds of survival isn't good at all and it would only start a conflict that makes things worse. I doubt Shepard would actually do something like that when they need the Council races help.

Snipers aiming at his face that need him. Wrex is only their in the first place because he's needed. If not for that need he wouldn't be getting the females at all. Their not doing him a damn favor. It's an exchange of services.

I don't know about you but if I need someone's help I don't tend to kill them. No matter how much I dislike them.

And actually Shep does do something similar according to a leaked preview.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 janvier 2012 - 01:39 .

[1136342t54_]

Ryzaki wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

@Ryzaki. Also, if we ever met real aliens, I don't expect them to be at all like us. But when BioWare made the krogan, they sure took a lot of inspiration from the Klingons. Wrex is the 'Proud Warrior Race' guy. He just wouldn't tolerate it.

Neither would I. But aliens that were designed by humans? Yes I expect them to have human attributes. We can't help it. It bleeds in because it's what we know.

Wrex doesn't have to tolerate-

Yup not jumping on that again. Just not. Already agreed to disagree.

Remember even Humans are incredibly different from one another due to culture. We get a lot of our morals from our environment.

[Made Nightwing]

The problem now is that we both have perfectly reasonable platforms, and see no reason to shift from them.

I agree to agree to disagree.

[Ryzaki]

1136342t54 wrote...
Remember even Humans are incredibly different from one another due to culture. We get a lot of our morals from our environment.

Then someone explain Charr and the Krogan that wants to be a scientist despite being mocked over it. There's always outliners.

[1136342t54_]

Ryzaki wrote...
Snipers aiming at his face that need him. Wrex is only their in the first place because he's needed. If not for that need he wouldn't be getting the females at all. Their not doing him a damn favor. It's an exchange of services.

I don't know about you but if I need someone's help I don't tend to kill them. No matter how much I dislike them.

They all need each other period. Giving Wrex the females was essentially them attempting to start an Alliance. Wrex forcing them to hand them over at gun point would not have helped relations. The whole point would be to make an Alliance but if Wrex wouldn't even be willing to do it peacefully then there would be no point in doing it all.

[slimgrin]

She is xenophobic, not racist.

[1136342t54_]

Ryzaki wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...
Remember even Humans are incredibly different from one another due to culture. We get a lot of our morals from our environment.

Then someone explain Charr and the Krogan that wants to be a scientist despite being mocked over it. There's always outliners.

How is that a counter to Humans being different? Do you disagree that our actual environment both physical and social affect how we act?

[OrdinaryTenant]

Made Nightwing wrote...

OrdinaryTenant wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...
(Also, it's an undisputable fact that Monarchy leads to Tyrrany. You have long periods of just monarchy in the ancient City of Rome (before the Republic and Empire) and even longer periods of just monarchy in Ancient Greece, but all came to nought because sooner or later, the monarchs would become tyrants, corrupted by their power)

In fairness, more "democratic" or "republican" forms of government have also historically lead to tyranny. 

I'm just sayin', such tendencies seem to be a part of human nature at a very basic level.

Boy, that was a frustrating semester of history. Going through Cicero, Plato, and every other political writer and NOWHERE can we find a system that is absolutely free of corruption. Either the tyrant takes over the monarchy, or the republic/democracy just gets hijacked.

Not to get too far on a tangent/soap-box... but, for my money, if you're looking for anything corruption-free, humanity is the wrong damn species to look to. 

Which is why (and I think you might agree) that if humans can't be trusted with power, then the only thing to do is limit the power humans have.

One of my favorite quotes on this matter come from the American statesman James Madison.  He wrote: "If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself."

Not sure what that has to do with Ash but... eh.

Modifié par OrdinaryTenant, 29 janvier 2012 - 01:44 .

[Ryzaki]

Made Nightwing wrote...

The problem now is that we both have perfectly reasonable platforms, and see no reason to shift from them.

I agree to agree to disagree.

True enough.

*gives internet cookie*

Thank you for not going the predictable route of "OMG you so dumb!" 

BlueMagitek wrote...

Eh, probably, I don't think you should have been able to get onto the Citadel, but apparently Anderson/Udina covers for you. And Hackett is covering for you too.  So you've got Three Stooges Angels watching over Shep.  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wizard.png[/smilie]

That letter in LOTSB made me lmao.

Still you'd think the new council would want to make an example of Shep.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 janvier 2012 - 01:45 .

[BlueMagitek]

slimgrin wrote...

She is xenophobic, not racist.

Being wary of other species/cultures doesn't make you xenophobic; xenophobic is an unreasonable fear, there are a number of reasons not to be enamored by alien cultures.

[Ryzaki]

1136342t54 wrote...
How is that a counter to Humans being different? Do you disagree that our actual environment both physical and social affect how we act?

No I meant more of the all Krogan are grown in the same enviornment therefore they all act nearly the same. bit. You didn't say it though.

And sadly enviornment does affect how we act. Thankfully however (or sadly in some cases) when end up different from where we came from.

Most of the time though *sighs*

Anyways I'm unjustifibly hard on Ash because I didn't like her from the moment my Shep shoved her out of the way of the Beacon and she had that smug look on her face when saying Anderson let her come on the ship. So yes I'm bias. I fully admit that

Modifié par Ryzaki, 29 janvier 2012 - 01:48 .

[1136342t54_]

Ryzaki wrote...

1136342t54 wrote...
How is that a counter to Humans being different? Do you disagree that our actual environment both physical and social affect how we act?

No I meant more of the all Krogan are grown in the same enviornment therefore they all act nearly the same. bit. You didn't say it though.

And sadly enviornment does affect how we act. Thankfully however (or sadly in some cases) when end up different from where we came from.

When you said that Krogan should share some Human attributes I was mostly responding to that since Humans can differe also. Not all humans would react in a similar way to that situation. Hell some would probably act exactly like Wrex.

[Ryzaki]

1136342t54 wrote...
When you said that Krogan should share some Human attributes I was mostly responding to that since Humans can differe also. Not all humans would react in a similar way to that situation. Hell some would probably act exactly like Wrex.

Yes that is very very true.

Like Shepard. You do not want to tell Shepard what he can or can't do. Not unless you happen to be Aria, Anderson or TIM (and I think the latter is getting a bullet soon.) 

[PrinceLionheart]

slimgrin wrote...

She is xenophobic, not racist.

The problem with that is the "phobic" part would mean her misgivings would have to be irrational, which they're not.

[slimgrin]

BlueMagitek wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

She is xenophobic, not racist.

Being wary of other species/cultures doesn't make you xenophobic; xenophobic is an unreasonable fear, there are a number of reasons not to be enamored by alien cultures.

Why do people stick up for her on this? She's clearly the most wary of aliens than any other teammate you have. That is the point of her character. Jesus, it's not that complicated. Bioware basically spelled it out, and now everyone wants to make her out like she's a politically correct little angel, the girl next door. She isn't.

Modifié par slimgrin, 29 janvier 2012 - 01:59 .