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[Nashiktal]

terdferguson123 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

Racism - "A belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various races determine cultural or individual achievemnt, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior to others."


So she compares aliens, who are even more capable of advancement than humans, to dogs, then claims that you will always choose your own race over your dog. Her analogy was exactly what she meant it to be. She was saying that aliens in this case are dogs, and that humans are superior to "dogs". I get it, you like her character, thats fine, but stop trying to argue against her created personality. She is a racist, and that is exactly what Bioware intended for her because it gives her character.

She never compared aliens to dogs, she compared HUMANITY to being the dog of the aliens.


Her point of that story is that a species will protect their own before protecting another. If humanity was faced between saving the dolphins, or apes of the world (both intelligent animals, not quite on par with humanity), or save themselves from destruction, the likely outcome is that humanity would sacrifice that species for survival.

Not racist at all. She also exclaims how she has trouble differentiating aliens from animals (Which was a bugged dialogue which wass supposed to happen around keepers) but when you compare hanar, keepers, who don't even wear clothes like other alien species, you can see where she might have trouble.

Forgive me it's been awhile since I've played the game.

Regardless, the analogy is EXACTLY the same no matter which side the "dog" is. Ultimately she is saying that humans or aliens will always feel that there race is worth saving over the other. That is in all forms of the word the very definition of racism.

Why? Racism doesn't deal with issues as complicated as interspecies interaction on an intelligent and cultured level. Racism deals with subcategories of humanity.

"Racism is the belief that inherent different traits in human racial groups justify discrimination."

The better term would be specieism, but even then that term was created by animal rights groups for non sapient creatures.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 26 janvier 2012 - 09:45 .

[Made Nightwing]

terdferguson123 wrote...

Racism - A belief or doctrine that inherit differences among various races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior to others."


So she compares aliens, who are even more capable of advancement than humans, to dogs, then claims that you will always choose your own race over your dog. Her analogy was exactly what she meant it to be. She was saying that aliens in this case are dogs, and that humans are superior to "dogs".

With that said, I get it, you like her character, thats fine, but stop trying to argue against her created personality. She is a racist, and that is exactly what Bioware intended for her because it gives her character.

Whether you like that about her or not, that is a different story.

Pardon me while I laugh my arse off at your overweening arrogance. You assume that YOU know what her created personality is? Rather than say, her writer? The same writer who said that Ashley IS NOT racist, but rather cautious and brutally pragmatic, holding no hate toward aliens, or any belief that humans are inherently superior.

[redbaron76]

SHe does not compare aliens to dogs, she just uses a dog as example because humans have dogs as pets and they love their dogsbut if they do encounter a bear they will sic fido on bear and retreat. She was saying that aliens will use humans as allies and then discard them if their race is in danger. That is pragmatism not racism. She does not think that humans are superior to other races.

[Nashiktal]

Made Nightwing wrote...

terdferguson123 wrote...

Racism - A belief or doctrine that inherit differences among various races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior to others."


So she compares aliens, who are even more capable of advancement than humans, to dogs, then claims that you will always choose your own race over your dog. Her analogy was exactly what she meant it to be. She was saying that aliens in this case are dogs, and that humans are superior to "dogs".

With that said, I get it, you like her character, thats fine, but stop trying to argue against her created personality. She is a racist, and that is exactly what Bioware intended for her because it gives her character.

Whether you like that about her or not, that is a different story.

Pardon me while I laugh my arse off at your overweening arrogance. You assume that YOU know what her created personality is? Rather than say, her writer? The same writer who said that Ashley IS NOT racist, but rather cautious and brutally pragmatic, holding no hate toward aliens, or any belief that humans are inherently superior.

Exactly. Ashley is a pragmatic, patriotic soldier who's family has experience what the aliens are capable of.

An actual "racist" (speciest, whatever) would be Kai Leng.

[warriorN7]

 I cant tell the animals from the aliens 
nah that's not racist and its taking way out of context  

[Spanky Magoo]

Random Jerkface wrote...

It would imply that she's ignorant about alien fauna.

In my experience, when a person is ignorant of ones people and customs and distrust them without making an attempt to understand them that would be classic symptoms of racism.

[Drone223]

terdferguson123 wrote...

Racism - A belief or doctrine that inherit differences among various races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior to others."


So she compares aliens, who are even more capable of advancement than humans, to dogs, then claims that you will always choose your own race over your dog. Her analogy was exactly what she meant it to be. She was saying that aliens in this case are dogs, and that humans are superior to "dogs".

With that said, I get it, you like her character, thats fine, but stop trying to argue against her created personality. She is a racist, and that is exactly what Bioware intended for her because it gives her character.

Whether you like that about her or not, that is a different story.

If Ashley is a racist why does she hate Terra Ferma and Cerberus, they are very well know for being anti-alien, it makes no scence, she is just cautious about them because she has never worked with them before

Modifié par Drone223, 27 janvier 2012 - 02:43 .

[Ryzaki]

I am not saying Ash is racist but it's quite possible to be racist while "hating" racist groups. It's overcompensation.

Think of a homosexual homophobe.

[HolyAvenger]

"Can't tell the aliens apart from the animals"

Lovely stuff.

[DeathScepter]

hanars look like a big stupid jellyfish, Krogan look like a cross between Ducks and Turtles. Turians has birds and raptor like elements to them. Also Salarians look very lizard like. Vorcha looks like either a Orc or something out of Lovecraft.

Asari, squid head.

[Made Nightwing]

Ryzaki wrote...

I am not saying Ash is racist but it's quite possible to be racist while "hating" racist groups. It's overcompensation.

Think of a homosexual homophobe.

Right, since I've argued this point a thousand times,  I'll simply repeat what her writer said. This is the person solely responsible for her character creation and development.

She is not racist. Pragmatic about interspecies politics and military alliances. In the same way that most people are sceptical about alliances between nation-states in the current world.

[Made Nightwing]

Maybe we should just state on every page of the thread what Chris and Kimberly said about Ashley's character. She's not racist, never was, and never will be. That's pretty much all that needs to be said, no matter what opinions to the contrary. You can't change what a character was meant to be, no matter what your opinion or perspective is.

[Ryzaki]

Made Nightwing wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I am not saying Ash is racist but it's quite possible to be racist while "hating" racist groups. It's overcompensation.

Think of a homosexual homophobe.

Right, since I've argued this point a thousand times,  I'll simply repeat what her writer said. This is the person solely responsible for her character creation and development.

She is not racist. Pragmatic about interspecies politics and military alliances. In the same way that most people are sceptical about alliances between nation-states in the current world.

So you just ignored the first part of my post eh? 

To be frank I don't give a damn if Ash is racist or not. Just disputing the "well she expresses dislike of Terra Firma so she's obviously not racist!" train of thought.

[Made Nightwing]

@Ryzaki. I realise that, and I didn't set out to offend you. But the train of thought IS actually valid, as it was one of the reasons given by Chris for why she's not racist. It's pretty much the key argument of the 'she's not racist' corner.

[Ryzaki]

Made Nightwing wrote...

@Ryzaki. I realise that, and I didn't set out to offend you. But the train of thought IS actually valid, as it was one of the reasons given by Chris for why she's not racist. It's pretty much the key argument of the 'she's not racist' corner.

Except the two trains of thought are completely different.

Sure Ash wasn't conceived as a racist by her creator. We can agree on that. (I would say whether she actually comes across as such is in dispute. You may not mean to make a character a racist douchenozzle but that doesn't make him any less of one if he fits said attributes).

But my arguement was someone speaking against radical racists =/= them not being racist. Racism comes in many shapes and forms. That's why I got agitated. (not offended.) Saying "Ash's creator said-" doesn't mean squat for what I'm saying. Ash's creator (and indeed Ash herself) has nothing to do with it. You can be racist and speak badly of other racists for being racist. It's hypocrisy but people do it (and similar things) every single day.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 janvier 2012 - 05:30 .

[Made Nightwing]

@Ryzaki. Not just conceived as not being racist, but also written and acted with the intention of not being racist. That so many players simply have thin skin and perceive her as racist is a problem of the player, not of the character.

There is racism, and then there is practicality. Looking down on someone, dissing their achievments, not hiring them, or simply having a negative preconception is racism. But Ashley doesn't look down on aliens, does not consider humanity inherently superior, openly admires the asari for the work they did on the Destiny Ascension, and is free of the bias that EVERY other character in the universe seems to have against quarians. Now, for a truly racist comment, look at what Garrus said to Tali, and then compare it to what Ash said.

Ash doesn't fit the attributes of a racist, she was not written as one, and she never says anything that doesn't seem perfectly reasonable in context. I just think that most of the arguments for her being racist are hogwash.

[Ryzaki]

Made Nightwing wrote...

@Ryzaki. Not just conceived as not being racist, but also written and acted with the intention of not being racist. That so many players simply have thin skin and perceive her as racist is a problem of the player, not of the character.

There is racism, and then there is practicality. Looking down on someone, dissing their achievments, not hiring them, or simply having a negative preconception is racism. But Ashley doesn't look down on aliens, does not consider humanity inherently superior, openly admires the asari for the work they did on the Destiny Ascension, and is free of the bias that EVERY other character in the universe seems to have against quarians. Now, for a truly racist comment, look at what Garrus said to Tali, and then compare it to what Ash said.

Ash doesn't fit the attributes of a racist, she was not written as one, and she never says anything that doesn't seem perfectly reasonable in context. I just think that most of the arguments for her being racist are hogwash.

Like I said it'd debatable. I'm not getting into it because I don't care enough for the inevitable wall of text war.

Plus I take a AID approach. If your character reads as a racist to people then that's simply the way the character is perceived.

And frankly I did not find that comment to Tali being racist. Cruel? Yes. Racist? Not so much. Someone else might see it as racist and find Garrus to be such. The whole thing is YMMV. As long as their not pulling details out of thin air everyone is allowed their own interpretation and it's not hogwash unless said interpretation is based off data that's not in the game/books/lore.

[Xilizhra]

Made Nightwing wrote...

@Ryzaki. Not just conceived as not being racist, but also written and acted with the intention of not being racist. That so many players simply have thin skin and perceive her as racist is a problem of the player, not of the character.

There is racism, and then there is practicality. Looking down on someone, dissing their achievments, not hiring them, or simply having a negative preconception is racism. But Ashley doesn't look down on aliens, does not consider humanity inherently superior, openly admires the asari for the work they did on the Destiny Ascension, and is free of the bias that EVERY other character in the universe seems to have against quarians. Now, for a truly racist comment, look at what Garrus said to Tali, and then compare it to what Ash said.

Ash doesn't fit the attributes of a racist, she was not written as one, and she never says anything that doesn't seem perfectly reasonable in context. I just think that most of the arguments for her being racist are hogwash.

An applicable quote in regards to Iron Man supposedly having been the hero during Civil War, but with the majority of the reader base seeing him as the villain:  "If the readers all think Iron Man's a villain, and he wasn't meant to be... well, maybe the writers and editors misunderstood what they were putting out".

Ashley isn't Terra Firma-ish, but I can't see her as being anything less than mildly speciesist.

[Made Nightwing]

How about cruel AND racist? It was far more offensive then anything Ash ever said, and showed a massively biased preconception on Garrus's part.

I don't really find Garrus to be racist, but I think he's got the same opinion on quarians as everyone else in galactic society. Ash, who ironically had her entire brigade wiped out by the geth, doesn't hold any ill will toward Tali because she doesn't seem to blame her for 'sins of the father'.

So many places where Ash could have slipped in a snarky remark that would have marked her as racist, yet she never said them. Would a racist even care about Liara's feelings when her mother died? It just doesn't compute that she'd be a racist and say things like that.

In the end, what the writer says usually trumps fan interpretations. For instance, Dumbeldore never read as particularly gay to me, but if JK Rowling says he's gay, then I guess that's that.

[Xilizhra]

I don't really find Garrus to be racist, but I think he's got the same opinion on quarians as everyone else in galactic society. Ash, who ironically had her entire brigade wiped out by the geth, doesn't hold any ill will toward Tali because she doesn't seem to blame her for 'sins of the father'.

She met geth before quarians, as opposed to most others in the galaxy who met a few quarians and never any geth at all.

Would a racist even care about Liara's feelings when her mother died?

Yes, especially if they were saying so in part to remove their own feelings of guilt about it.

[Ryzaki]

Made Nightwing wrote...

How about cruel AND racist? It was far more offensive then anything Ash ever said, and showed a massively biased preconception on Garrus's part.

I don't really find Garrus to be racist, but I think he's got the same opinion on quarians as everyone else in galactic society. Ash, who ironically had her entire brigade wiped out by the geth, doesn't hold any ill will toward Tali because she doesn't seem to blame her for 'sins of the father'.

So many places where Ash could have slipped in a snarky remark that would have marked her as racist, yet she never said them. Would a racist even care about Liara's feelings when her mother died? It just doesn't compute that she'd be a racist and say things like that.

In the end, what the writer says usually trumps fan interpretations. For instance, Dumbeldore never read as particularly gay to me, but if JK Rowling says he's gay, then I guess that's that.

Like I said it's YMMV. As for the racist bit don't care enough to debate it. I see her as someone who brings up race when it's unnecessary however. There are levels to racism. It's not all "OMG MUST KILL ALL MEMBERS OF X RACE!" the far more subtle racism is often the hardest to get rid of.

As for the Dumbledore quote. I'd say being gay is far more definable than being racist. Thus I would take JK's word over the BW devs. (That said I take JK's word as crap because she contradicts herself multiple times in interviews, not only the interviews themselves but the canon source and - must not go into what is canon debate...must not...) So yeah...I don't take Dumbledore as gay because Rowling said so but rather because her word didn't contradict with anything I knew from canon and I liked the idea. If she wanted him canonically gay she should've put it in the damn book.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 27 janvier 2012 - 05:51 .

[Made Nightwing]

Xilizhra wrote...

Made Nightwing wrote...

@Ryzaki. Not just conceived as not being racist, but also written and acted with the intention of not being racist. That so many players simply have thin skin and perceive her as racist is a problem of the player, not of the character.

There is racism, and then there is practicality. Looking down on someone, dissing their achievments, not hiring them, or simply having a negative preconception is racism. But Ashley doesn't look down on aliens, does not consider humanity inherently superior, openly admires the asari for the work they did on the Destiny Ascension, and is free of the bias that EVERY other character in the universe seems to have against quarians. Now, for a truly racist comment, look at what Garrus said to Tali, and then compare it to what Ash said.

Ash doesn't fit the attributes of a racist, she was not written as one, and she never says anything that doesn't seem perfectly reasonable in context. I just think that most of the arguments for her being racist are hogwash.

An applicable quote in regards to Iron Man supposedly having been the hero during Civil War, but with the majority of the reader base seeing him as the villain:  "If the readers all think Iron Man's a villain, and he wasn't meant to be... well, maybe the writers and editors misunderstood what they were putting out".

Ashley isn't Terra Firma-ish, but I can't see her as being anything less than mildly speciesist.

Not really applicable. Didn't the writers say at one point that there were no 'good guys' in Civil War? I can't remember, been ages.

Then why does she even care about Liara's feelings after her mother dies? Why does she even care about how Wrex feels about destroying the genophage? Why doesn't she blame Tali for the loss of the 212 on Eden Prime? I will continue to argue that you're mistaking her putting her species at the top of her priority list, for something more nefarious.

Ash doesn't want humanity interferred with, she doesn't want them taken advantage of. But guess what the Council are doing? You guessed it, interfering and taking advantage of humanity wherever they can get away with it. Ashley's fears are well founded.

[Xilizhra]

Then why does she even care about Liara's feelings after her mother dies? Why does she even care about how Wrex feels about destroying the genophage? Why doesn't she blame Tali for the loss of the 212 on Eden Prime? I will continue to argue that you're mistaking her putting her species at the top of her priority list, for something more nefarious.

I believe you're inflating the implications of speciesism. All it necessarily means is looking upon members of other species negatively in part for being that species, nothing more.

Ash doesn't want humanity interferred with, she doesn't want them taken advantage of. But guess what the Council are doing? You guessed it, interfering and taking advantage of humanity wherever they can get away with it. Ashley's fears are well founded.

Also allowing them to rise to power at an unprecedentedly speedy rate, remember.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 27 janvier 2012 - 05:54 .

[Made Nightwing]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't really find Garrus to be racist, but I think he's got the same opinion on quarians as everyone else in galactic society. Ash, who ironically had her entire brigade wiped out by the geth, doesn't hold any ill will toward Tali because she doesn't seem to blame her for 'sins of the father'.

She met geth before quarians, as opposed to most others in the galaxy who met a few quarians and never any geth at all.

Would a racist even care about Liara's feelings when her mother died?

Yes, especially if they were saying so in part to remove their own feelings of guilt about it.

But she has far more reason to hate the quarians. They created the geth, remember? The things that wiped out her squad, her platoon, her company, her battalion and her brigade. Friends, comrades in arms, people she would have been close with, all dead because the quarians created the geth. And yet she doesn't hate the quarians, or harbour ill will against them. Frankly, it makes her a heck of a lot more open minded than the rest of the galaxy.

What guilt would Ashley have about Benezia dying?

[Xilizhra]

But she has far more reason to hate the quarians. They created the geth, remember? The things that wiped out her squad, her platoon, her company, her battalion and her brigade. Friends, comrades in arms, people she would have been close with, all dead because the quarians created the geth. And yet she doesn't hate the quarians, or harbour ill will against them. Frankly, it makes her a heck of a lot more open minded than the rest of the galaxy.

She has no real experience with quarians other than Tali and a lack of culturally pushed distrust towards them, whereas the geth themselves are a far more obvious target to hate. She's not more open-minded, just in an unusual position because the geth aren't just quarian-created bogeymen to her; instead, the quarians were the geth's first victims. It's all to do with the order of meeting.

What guilt would Ashley have about Benezia dying?

Guilt about being speciesist.