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[Made Nightwing]

Xilizhra wrote...

Then why does she even care about Liara's feelings after her mother dies? Why does she even care about how Wrex feels about destroying the genophage? Why doesn't she blame Tali for the loss of the 212 on Eden Prime? I will continue to argue that you're mistaking her putting her species at the top of her priority list, for something more nefarious.

I believe you're inflating the implications of speciesism. All it necessarily means is looking upon members of other species negatively in part for being that species, nothing more.

Ash doesn't want humanity interferred with, she doesn't want them taken advantage of. But guess what the Council are doing? You guessed it, interfering and taking advantage of humanity wherever they can get away with it. Ashley's fears are well founded.

Also allowing them to rise to power at an unprecedentedly speedy rate, remember.

And I contend that she doesn't look down on anyone for being part of a species because they're part of that species. When she is hesitant about allowing Wrex and Garrus full access, it's not because they're krogan or turian, it's because they're newcomers.

Quoting Lieutenant Malcolm Reed from Star Trek: Enterprise: "We don't know anything about this species, or what they want, or what they hope to gain. And until we know that, we should restrict access to engineering, the armoury and any other sensitive part of the ship."

Is that a racist remark? Nope, it's a pragmatic security officer doing his job.

Power, sure. But do they use their influence or their military to help humanity in any way?

[Ryzaki]

Made Nightwing wrote...
What guilt would Ashley have about Benezia dying?

Guilt about practically biting Liara's head off when all she was trying to do was help. Whether out of distrust or some bizarre possessiveness over my Shep who as about as romantically interested in her as he was Saren I dunno.

Don't see what it has to do with specieism myself.

[Made Nightwing]

Xilizhra wrote...

But she has far more reason to hate the quarians. They created the geth, remember? The things that wiped out her squad, her platoon, her company, her battalion and her brigade. Friends, comrades in arms, people she would have been close with, all dead because the quarians created the geth. And yet she doesn't hate the quarians, or harbour ill will against them. Frankly, it makes her a heck of a lot more open minded than the rest of the galaxy.

She has no real experience with quarians other than Tali and a lack of culturally pushed distrust towards them, whereas the geth themselves are a far more obvious target to hate. She's not more open-minded, just in an unusual position because the geth aren't just quarian-created bogeymen to her; instead, the quarians were the geth's first victims. It's all to do with the order of meeting.

What guilt would Ashley have about Benezia dying?

Guilt about being speciesist.

On the contrary, it's the ultimate sign of an open mind. As G.K. Chesterton said "The point of an open mind, as with an open mouth, is that it should eventually close on something." Ash has no opinion on the quarians, knows nothing except that they created the geth. She has two options when she meets Tali, be biased because they created the geth, or sympathise, because she can see that the quarians are as much victims as anyone else. Her mind closes on the 'sympathise' option. She tends towards a fair analysis of Tali, rather than a biased one. Someone who looks down on other species wouldn't have done that.

No offence, but that one's just conjecture. Ashley's also lost a parent, her father, in unknown circumstances. Would it be any less likely that she'd want Shepard to comfort Liara because she knows what it's like to lose a parent?

Modifié par Made Nightwing, 27 janvier 2012 - 06:07 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Ashley is in favor of a pro-human movement on the political side, yet desiring your nation to be more powerful then others doesn't mean you hate people of other nations

[Xilizhra]

And I contend that she doesn't look down on anyone for being part of a species because they're part of that species. When she is hesitant about allowing Wrex and Garrus full access, it's not because they're krogan or turian, it's because they're newcomers.

I believe it does have to do with their species, at least in part. She does demonstrate dislike for Saren due to species (namely, "can kiss his turian ass goodbye").

Power, sure. But do they use their influence or their military to help humanity in any way?

Yes, against the batarians during that territorial dispute.

On the contrary, it's the ultimate sign of an open mind. As G.K. Chesterton said "The point of an open mind, as with an open mouth, is that it should eventually close on something." Ash has no opinion on the quarians, knows nothing except that they created the geth. She has two options when she meets Tali, be biased because they created the geth, or sympathise, because she can see that the quarians are as much victims as anyone else. Her mind closes on the 'sympathise' option. She tends towards a fair analysis of Tali, rather than a biased one. Someone who looks down on other species wouldn't have done that.

Looks down? Perhaps not. Distrusts/dislikes? Quite possibly, because the geth are worse. Though I suspect that she favors quarians because they're not in the Council.

No offence, but that one's just conjecture. Ashley's also lost a parent, her father, in unknown circumstances. Would it be any less likely that she'd want Shepard to comfort Liara because she knows what it's like to lose a parent?

Possible. Also conjecture.

[Made Nightwing]

Xilizhra wrote...

And I contend that she doesn't look down on anyone for being part of a species because they're part of that species. When she is hesitant about allowing Wrex and Garrus full access, it's not because they're krogan or turian, it's because they're newcomers.

I believe it does have to do with their species, at least in part. She does demonstrate dislike for Saren due to species (namely, "can kiss his turian ass goodbye").

Power, sure. But do they use their influence or their military to help humanity in any way?

Yes, against the batarians during that territorial dispute.

On the contrary, it's the ultimate sign of an open mind. As G.K. Chesterton said "The point of an open mind, as with an open mouth, is that it should eventually close on something." Ash has no opinion on the quarians, knows nothing except that they created the geth. She has two options when she meets Tali, be biased because they created the geth, or sympathise, because she can see that the quarians are as much victims as anyone else. Her mind closes on the 'sympathise' option. She tends towards a fair analysis of Tali, rather than a biased one. Someone who looks down on other species wouldn't have done that.

Looks down? Perhaps not. Distrusts/dislikes? Quite possibly, because the geth are worse. Though I suspect that she favors quarians because they're not in the Council.

No offence, but that one's just conjecture. Ashley's also lost a parent, her father, in unknown circumstances. Would it be any less likely that she'd want Shepard to comfort Liara because she knows what it's like to lose a parent?

Possible. Also conjecture.

Dislike against Saren probably has to do with the fact that he made it about race first. "You humans need to learn your place." His is a stereotypical attitude of turian veterans of the First Contact War, probably something Ash still resents, due to her grandfather's disgrace.

They used their influence against the batarians because it furthered their own goals. The batarians were a powerful species, and they were only going to get more power. They were pushing for a Council seat. But since the 'civilized' Council couldn't permit a species that still favoured slavery to sit among them, they used humans as their hunting dog to tear apart the 'bear' that the batarians were becoming.

I think her resentment towards the Council would be there even if they were humans. To her, their race probably doesn't mean anything. The fact that they represent a bloated bureaucracy  might.

[Sleepdribble]

Ashley begins the Mass Effect story as a racist. No question. She only recognises the worth of people who belong to the human race. Her ignorance and suspicion, NO MATTER THE REASON BEHIND IT, manifests itself as grotesque racism. (And there is no excuse big enough to justify directing ridicule and/or mistrust toward someone based soley on their race.)

Ashley knows this, which is why she feels nervous/guilty/uncomfortable when she first brings up her concerns about Garrus and Wrex with Shepard. She is acutley aware of how unreasonably prejudiced she is, how ugly it is, and how important it is that she should have a ready explanation for it to deflect the disgust her attitude deserves (her dog/bear analogy.)

Ashley’s not the worst racist in the game. And she CAN redeem herself, which makes her a very interesting and admirable character. But to say she was never racist to begin with, or to water it down in any way, is to rob her character of one of its most dramatic and important indications of personal growth.

[Drone223]

Sleepdribble wrote...

Ashley begins the Mass Effect story as a racist. No question. She only recognises the worth of people who belong to the human race. Her ignorance and suspicion, NO MATTER THE REASON BEHIND IT, manifests itself as grotesque racism. (And there is no excuse big enough to justify directing ridicule and/or mistrust toward someone based soley on their race.)

Ashley knows this, which is why she feels nervous/guilty/uncomfortable when she first brings up her concerns about Garrus and Wrex with Shepard. She is acutley aware of how unreasonably prejudiced she is, how ugly it is, and how important it is that she should have a ready explanation for it to deflect the disgust her attitude deserves (her dog/bear analogy.)

Ashley’s not the worst racist in the game. And she CAN redeem herself, which makes her a very interesting and admirable character. But to say she was never racist to begin with, or to water it down in any way, is to rob her character of one of its most dramatic and important indications of personal growth.

1. Ashley never hated alien's she just cautious since she never worked with them before
2. She hate Cerberus and Terra Ferma
3. She suggest that you talk to Liara after killing her mother
4. She is willing to work with Salerian STG without being told do by Shepard
5. She has hope's Tali's people will have a better future
6. She show's intrerest in living on the Citadel
7. She admire's the DA
8. Ashley's writer says she is not racist

Modifié par Drone223, 27 janvier 2012 - 09:02 .

[Made Nightwing]

Sleepdribble wrote...

Ashley begins the Mass Effect story as a racist. No question. She only recognises the worth of people who belong to the human race. Her ignorance and suspicion, NO MATTER THE REASON BEHIND IT, manifests itself as grotesque racism. (And there is no excuse big enough to justify directing ridicule and/or mistrust toward someone based soley on their race.)

Ashley knows this, which is why she feels nervous/guilty/uncomfortable when she first brings up her concerns about Garrus and Wrex with Shepard. She is acutley aware of how unreasonably prejudiced she is, how ugly it is, and how important it is that she should have a ready explanation for it to deflect the disgust her attitude deserves (her dog/bear analogy.)

Ashley’s not the worst racist in the game. And she CAN redeem herself, which makes her a very interesting and admirable character. But to say she was never racist to begin with, or to water it down in any way, is to rob her character of one of its most dramatic and important indications of personal growth.

I'm afraid your mistaken. Her writer clearly states from the beginning that Ashley is not a racist. She never ridicules or mistrusts anyone based on their race. But she does mistrust certain people and factions in the galaxy based on their LOYALTIES.

Her concerns when bringing up Garrus and Wrex are not her being nervous/guilty/uncomfortable. Nor does she think it's ugly or prejudiced. She's a Gunnery Chief with security responsibilities. To again quote Malcolm Reed from Star Trek:"We don't know anything about this species, or what they want, or what they hope to gain. And until we know that, we should restrict access to engineering, the armoury and any other sensitive part of the ship."

You don't let anyone, regardless of how much they say 'they want to help', waltz onto an advanced starship without keeping an eye on them. The dog and bear analogy is her way of saying that if the Council has a problem that they need solved, they'll sic their dog (humanity) on the bear (any alien threat that the Council doesn't want to deal with directly).

And guess what, her concerns are well justified. Three times, the Council sics humanity on a threat that they don't feel comfortable dealing with themselves. First, the batarians, who were getting too powerful for the Council to control. Then Saren, who they let Shepard deal with, without committing any major military action by themselves. And the latest example is the Collectors. The Council won't take any action themselves, but they let Shepard take care of it, no problem.

Ash isn't a racist by any definition of the term. She doesn't look down on anyone because of their species, or assume any inherent human superiority. Her concerns are simply loyalty, and the knowledge that people will always be more loyal to their own. This COULD be considered racist if you are seriously stretching the bounds of credulity, but as her writer said: She's not. Why is this so difficult to accept?

[CptData]

Let me put it in few words:

Ashley is reserved towards persons she doesn't trust (yet), regardless if it's a human or an alien. She's a nationalist (not "****") and a patriot. Heard patriotism isn't a bad thing ^^

You can shift her POV in case you romance her and use paragon options frequently. She might end a bit less distrustful towards other persons (including aliens) and she might be a friend of some. For example, she and Tali are friends.
Ashley also has shows respect for Wrex (after Virmire) and Garrus. And she even cares for Liara, although she's not a friend.

Guys, I know - real- racists. That are usually dumb, violent dudes. Ashley is neither dumb nor violent. She's not actively fighting aliens because they're aliens.

[CSunkyst]

100k wrote...

"Yuck! I can't tell the aliens from the animals".

Yes, that will do, Ms. Williams.

A.) she doesn't say "yuck"

B.) my first time playing Mass Effect, when I saw a keeper, I thought it was a cool that ME had alien races that looked so alien, and I spent a minute or two at the embassy wondering why I couldn't talk to "him" like I could the Volus and the Elcor. 

They're ALIENS, sometimes you CAN'T tell the difference between the aliens and the alien animals. 

Modifié par CSunkyst, 27 janvier 2012 - 10:06 .

[Jestina]

I didn't really care for her extreme views and had no desire to romance her, but she was a good solider in ME.

[Zkyire]

Species, not race.

Species, not race.

Species, not race.

[Clayless]

"I can't tell the aliens apart from the animals."

Don't worry maybe she'll redeem herself in ME2.

"I don't trust you Shepard because I'm a ****"

Welp, hope you enjoy dying in ME3.

[nitefyre410]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

SAGEHONOR wrote...

100k wrote...

"Yuck! I can't tell the aliens from the animals".

Yes, that will do, Ms. Williams.

That doesn't imply racism.

What does it imply? That she's partially blind?

She can't tell a pyjak from a monkey?

Or an iguana from a krogan?

 

it implies incrediable bad writing and terrible quality control on Biowares part... someone should spoke up in the writers meeting.. 

"Hey this animal analogy... not working  fix it." 


ironically... Krogans do kinda look like iguana's not that you mention it.  


Pyjaks look more like  Leamers. 

[Clayless]

It's not bugged dialogue, it's fully recorded and implimented dialogue and it's her opinion.

Why are people trying to defend her with the terrible "Oh she wasn't supposed to say that" excuse? You could litterally excuse anything using that logic. It wasn't bad writting, it's just that she's a racist ****.

[Clayless]

Prove it.

[Errol Dnamyx]

I can't tell the aliens from the animals either.