393 réponses à ce sujet

[The Spamming Troll]

Dewart wrote...

MJvasNormandy wrote...

I think any effect other than another "deals force of x Newtons" or "lifts target" would be good. Stasis, extra sensitivity to biotics, etc....it's all good.

if it deals force and gives biotic sensitivity I would likely be more than happy.

Enemies on the left enemies on the right. Singularity right group then toss your grenade to the left of the left group. start stripping right groups defences then boom left group flies to the right group. Warp on the enemies that flew from the left (now biotic sensitive) boom then everyone will be in your singularity.

that scenario only works if you have enpugh grenades, which you wont.

im imagining bionades to be more effective CC then abilities like throw, pull, or slam. which really if thats true then it accomplishes the same thing that overpower was supposed to do for the adept. an ability that makes biotics usefull. if overpower boosts your biotics force over a short time, and in a way bionades are a boost to "biotics" too, then whats the difference? its an indirect relationship but its essentially the same thing.

unless ofcorse if bionades suck.

but then whats the point of a sucky limited ability then?

but what adept player wants their best ability to be a grenade?

but what if monkeys fly out of my butt?!?!?

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 26 janvier 2012 - 04:02 .

[Cadell_Agathon]

Dewart wrote...
Well when you describe it like that it does sound very cool  
I did the Bastion thing in ME1 put 6 pts in stasis and had a maxed out sniper bonus power with all other powers maxed. Lets just say that character build was a god.
That would be my only worry with giving an adept stasis as a base power in ME3 too close to the ME1 god like.

Your description of stastis use is cool but it leaves little room for error in my opinion. You would definatly be a god you need to let the enemy have some chance lol

Lol I was a bastion adept in ME1 also. However the difference in ME3 is that weapon's damage does not pass through stasis 100%, instead only a % of your full weapon damage goes through stasis. Plus, IIRC damaging an enemy in stasis shortens its duration. Stasis as a base power would definitely pump up the adept but they balanced it from the god that it was in ME1 and the demi-god it was in ME2. At least, I hope so. We don't want a biotic "easy button" because that's no fun.

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

Cadell_Agathon wrote...
and the demi-god it was in ME2.

????

[Dewart]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Dewart wrote...

MJvasNormandy wrote...

I think any effect other than another "deals force of x Newtons" or "lifts target" would be good. Stasis, extra sensitivity to biotics, etc....it's all good.

if it deals force and gives biotic sensitivity I would likely be more than happy.

Enemies on the left enemies on the right. Singularity right group then toss your grenade to the left of the left group. start stripping right groups defences then boom left group flies to the right group. Warp on the enemies that flew from the left (now biotic sensitive) boom then everyone will be in your singularity.

that scenario only works if you have enpugh grenades, which you wont.

im imagining bionades to be more effective CC then abilities like throw, pull, or slam. which really if thats true then it accomplishes the same thing that overpower was supposed to do for the adept. an ability that makes biotics usefull. if overpower boosts your biotics force over a short time, and in a way bionades are a boost to "biotics" too, then whats the difference? its an indirect relationship but its essentially the same thing.

unless ofcorse if bionades suck.

but then whats the point of a sucky limited ability then?

but what adept player wants their best ability to be a grenade?

but what if monkeys fly out of my butt?!?!?

In that scenerio I described I'm pretty sure only 1 grenade was used. Also it was purely speculative.

But what if monkeys did fly out of your butt?? Well first of all I would have to say you should go get that checked out or open up a pet shop perhaps a zoo.

Cadell_Agathon wrote...

Lol I was a bastion adept in ME1 also. However the difference in ME3 is that weapon's damage does not pass through stasis 100%, instead only a % of your full weapon damage goes through stasis. Plus, IIRC damaging an enemy in stasis shortens its duration. Stasis as a base power would definitely pump up the adept but they balanced it from the god that it was in ME1 and the demi-god it was in ME2. At least, I hope so. We don't want a biotic "easy button" because that's no fun.

Yeah easy button equals bad. I'm also thinking if stasis was a base power then you could choose warp ammo as your bonus and that would likely be too much.
I thought barrier as a base power would be cool but if you factor in that an adept now has fitness those two combined plus a base power may be too much as well.

[Cadell_Agathon]

Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

Cadell_Agathon wrote...
and the demi-god it was in ME2.

????

What I meant by that was that stasis was pretty powerful in ME2 but not as powerful as its ME1 version. 

[Kakita Tatsumaru]

And how is that related to the Adept being a "demi-god", as any class can have Stasis?

[Shepard the Leper]

Dewart wrote...

I agree there are better options available but I also believe those options would have possibly overpowered the adept with the new balance for ME3.

if we had the regular adept powers plus barrier plus bonus then maybe the adept was op still.

LOL. I'm glad you agree that grenades might not be the best thing to add to the biotic arsenal of the Adept.

The rest is complete nonsense. Can you explain to me how the heck the ME3 Adept can be OP? If powers like Pull and Shockwave are insanely powerful, doesn't that make the Vanguard OP too? Warp and Throw are powers of the Sentinel, Singularity is part of Liara's loadout and so forth. Barrier is a bonus power, anyone can use it - how can it break balance for the Adept and not for anyone else?

If biotics are going to be OP (and I definitely hope they're NOT), it has as much impact on the Adept class as it has on everyone else. When Charge is OP it would only affect the Vanguard. Only the unique powers (which the Adept lacks - except the unknown grenades) can break the game for a certain class. If the Adept is going to be broken (or OP), everyone will be. And that's saying something: It's IMPOSSIBLE to make the Adept too powerful (compated to the other classes) yet it's very easy to accomplish that with one of the other five.

I don't think biotic grenade was made up on a whim is what I'm getting at. Not to mention I'm sure they want to avoid taking those previous bonus powers away from the other classes. Some people have formulated their strategy based on those bonus powers and that was likely in the back of the developers' minds once they had scrapped overpower.

Can you explain to me why you think it's great for all classes to have the option to add a bonus power to  enhance / completement their strategy and/or gameplay. But at the same you seem perfectly fine with the Adept class lacking the means to even develop an unique strategy / gameplay to begin with?

Imagine a battle layout where there are 6 enemies in front of you. 3 of them on the ground in front and a few meters back are the other 3 on a raised platform behind cover. you throw out your singularity to the 3 in front and lob you bionade over the cover the 3 above are hiding behind. You and your squadmates immediately start stripping the defences of the 3 on the ground. That grenade you threw is going off and sending the other three to the ground so all 6 are close together. By the time the 3 that were on the platform are picking themself up of the ground your cooldown is gone and you are detonating an enemy caught in your singularity.

You can do the exact same thing with Soldier Shepard and watch the fireworks in slowmotion if you like.

Enemies on the left enemies on the right. Singularity right group then toss your grenade to the left of the left group. start stripping right groups defences then boom left group flies to the right group. Warp on the enemies that flew from the left (now biotic sensitive) boom then everyone will be in your singularity.

Still not something related to the Adept. Soldiers can do this too.

Which is the whole point. I don't care about killing speed, I don't care about playing a weaker class, I don't care about the protection system (which I like btw), I don't care about (bonus) powers and what their effects are going to be. The only thing I want is to have 6 classes who all have their own unique way of handling things. I got just that with ME2, but the Adept has lost it in ME3. Maybe you like casting Singularity yourself (using Adept) and detonate the lot with (squadmate) Warp. But that's not all that exciting imho when I've just finished a playthrough where Liara casted Singularities and my Sentinel blew them up.

The current version of the ME3 Adept's replay value is on the level of playing any class a second time with a different team to back you up. That's too litle to get me excited about the class.

Modifié par Shepard the Leper, 26 janvier 2012 - 11:01 .

[Dewart]

To: Shepard the Leper

I believe any questions you have asked me have been answered in some of my other posts on this topic. Some of those quotes from me you have snipped up and taken out of context a wee bit.

Now that that is out of the way I can clearly see you have an opinion and you definatly will not sway from it. I admire that trait. You are totally entitled to your opinion but it is an opinion that I do not share.
 
I stand by the fact that the adept was perfect in Mass Effect 2 and I am confident that I will find more of the same from ME3. I still believe the adept will remain a unique class without a new power purely because of how it can handle biotics in comparison to the other classes. We still get a new power that we really don't need(IMO) and I am confident that it won't be as much of a let down as we are initially expecting.

I know my ideas are not good enough for you (and I respect that) but they are good enough for me. I think at this point you and I must agree to disagree.

Now what we can agree on is that we both are skeptical of the bionade idea and would have liked something else in it's place. I however believe that the developers likely tried multiple ideas before deciding on the bionade. Your stance seems to (this is my asumption I am sorry if it is wrong) believe that it was more of a last minute decision. Neither of us really know for sure. I do believe both of us could have an enjoyable time brainstorming ideas what could be put in place other than the bionade. I'm not sure any of those ideas would ever be able to make it into the game at this point but it would still be fun to speculate. I do believe we could also have fun brainstorming ideas about what the bionade could do for the adept. I would find it more likely that those ideas could be considered by developers this close to release. (tweaking vs redo)

I'm kind of more along a wait and see sort of mentality. I also believe the other classes got a seemingly (on paper) flashier power because they needed it (other classes were underwhelming to me in ME2).

If on game release I find the bionade is awful and the adept becomes broken then I may very well be sharing your opinions. Until then I would like to agree to disagree about our vision of what an adept is and instead work together to brainstorm ideas.

I see you have taken a lot of effort in your post (kudos) and I hope I have achieved my goal in giving you a proper reply.

Us adepts need to unite and not be at each others throats

Modifié par Dewart, 26 janvier 2012 - 11:35 .

[MJvasNormandy]

Dewart wrote...

To: Shepard the Leper

I believe any questions you have asked me have been answered in some of my other posts on this topic. Some of those quotes from me you have snipped up and taken out of context a wee bit.

*snip...

I see you have taken a lot of effort in your post (kudos) and I hope I have achieved my goal in giving you a proper reply.

Us adepts need to unite and not be at each others throats

Very much agree with the bolded statements. Be careful when quoting others. Note, there is some intelligent discussion here, others will notice if your arguments are not well-constructed, disrespectful, or off-topic.

To continue this thread on topic, we are discussing strictly Bionades and whether they add anything new to the Adept's repertoire, or if they need to. The power of the Adept--which I believe is and will continue to be great--is not in question here.

Modifié par MJvasNormandy, 26 janvier 2012 - 01:54 .

[Lycidas]

After finding a picture of the Bionade if must say it looks like quite a "refreshing" idea for the Adept class

[MJvasNormandy]

I know I just said something about staying on topic, but this is just...it's just...wow. Does it come in ryncol green?

Modifié par MJvasNormandy, 26 janvier 2012 - 01:43 .

[Lycidas]

MJvasNormandy wrote...

I know I just said something about staying on topic, but this is just...it's just...wow. Does it come in ryncol green?

I'm so sorry  I had this in my mind from the first time the name bionade came up on. It's  well known brand here.

[XDMMX]

I was recently doing a Adept playthough in ME1 to prepare for ME3, when it occurred to my how much grenades synergized with Adepts Singularity power in ME1. Cast Singularity, wait for enemies to bunch up in the center, toss grenade into center of Singularity and blow them to hell.

Maybe in ME3 Singularities will be more effective and we can trap large groups of enemies in one and nuke them with Biotic Grenade? Maybe the Singularity could enhance the effects of the Biotic Grenade causing some sort of massive explosion.

Imagine performing a Singularity and then throwing a Grenade towards a Singularity to be sucked into its center, then detonating the grenade with a bunch of trapped enemies.

And yes I know that this is sort of redundant considering Warp bombs, but doing a Singularity, Biotic Grenade combo explosion could do something like have a greater damage effect, possibly vaporizing enemies or having a massive shockwave that emanates out and stuns enemies or even causing a bunch of random Singularities to somehow Spawn in the area. This would be kept from being over used bye limiting Biotic Grenades of course.

[The Spamming Troll]

^
so if bionades can easily clea all the enemies on screen, then its practical?

the problem with that is, no adept player wants bionades to be better then their actual biotics. for the same reason no adept player uses the blackstorm. most of them use the chain lighting heavy weapon so they can eliminate protections, and start using abilities.

i dont ever want to use bionades becaseu there a better means of CC then pull, throw, or shockwave. if it casues alot of damage, great, i dont need to warp bomb as much. but if it CCs enemies who cant be CCed by my abilities outside of singularity, then the idea behind bionade wasnt thought up by an adept player, but a soldier player.

heavy throw = healf second stagger
bionade = clears screen

theres a problem there, isnt there?

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 26 janvier 2012 - 02:58 .

[MELTOR13]

I'm hoping that the biotic grenade does significant damage to protections, over a wide area. That would give Adepts a limited-use, powerful ability that could wipe out the regular protections of enemies in a wide area, allowing the Adept to go biotic death mode that much quicker.

I also agree with Spamming, here. Biotic grenades should be powerful (in some way, shape, or form) because of their limited use, but they shouldn't be so powerful that they trivialize all other powers.

[Dewart]

Lycidas wrote...

After finding a picture of the Bionade if must say it looks like quite a "refreshing" idea for the Adept class

dude you are my hero lol I love this.

[Dewart]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

^
so if bionades can easily clea all the enemies on screen, then its practical?

the problem with that is, no adept player wants bionades to be better then their actual biotics. for the same reason no adept player uses the blackstorm. most of them use the chain lighting heavy weapon so they can eliminate protections, and start using abilities.

i dont ever want to use bionades becaseu there a better means of CC then pull, throw, or shockwave. if it casues alot of damage, great, i dont need to warp bomb as much. but if it CCs enemies who cant be CCed by my abilities outside of singularity, then the idea behind bionade wasnt thought up by an adept player, but a soldier player.

heavy throw = healf second stagger
bionade = clears screen

theres a problem there, isnt there?

I agree with this we don't want the bionade to be our best power.

[Dewart]

MELTOR13 wrote...

I'm hoping that the biotic grenade does significant damage to protections, over a wide area. That would give Adepts a limited-use, powerful ability that could wipe out the regular protections of enemies in a wide area, allowing the Adept to go biotic death mode that much quicker.

I also agree with Spamming, here. Biotic grenades should be powerful (in some way, shape, or form) because of their limited use, but they shouldn't be so powerful that they trivialize all other powers.

I think that would make it an excellent power if say you lose your squaddies. Essentially being your holy crap button.

[Dewart]

An idea that I had yesterday that I'm on the fence about:

Imagine the bionade working differently based on what powers you have currently active.
Nothing going on = bionade sends enemies flying anywhere.
A Singularity is active = bionade sends enemies caught in the blast toward the singularity

Only reason I am on the fence is because I think that might be hard to put into the game at this point. my game development skills are way outdated any thoughts?

think of enemies getting caught in the blast being affected by a pull coming from the direction of the singularity.

Modifié par Dewart, 26 janvier 2012 - 03:35 .

[D.Kain]

Biotic grenade ignores all protections in ME3?

[MJvasNormandy]

D.Kain wrote...

Biotic grenade ignores all protections in ME3?

I sure hope not.

[MJvasNormandy]

Dewart wrote...

An idea that I had yesterday that I'm on the fence about:

Imagine the bionade working differently based on what powers you have currently active.
Nothing going on = bionade sends enemies flying anywhere.
A Singularity is active = bionade sends enemies caught in the blast toward the singularity

Only reason I am on the fence is because I think that might be hard to put into the game at this point. my game development skills are way outdated any thoughts?

think of enemies getting caught in the blast being affected by a pull coming from the direction of the singularity.

I think this is the core of the discussion. Will bionades combo differently than anything else the Adept already has at their disposal. I like you're idea about complimenting active powers.

[Lycidas]

For me the bionade could have been interesting if it was used to alter the next skill you use. For example: Activating bionade and then Singularity gives you an exploding Singularity, bionade + Throw gives you a biotic projectile that explodes on impact, bionade + warp gives you an AE warp, bionade + SW a cluster explosion effect.
I realize we seem to get some of that by regular skills in ME 3 but still I thought it would have been a cool idea.

[Dewart]

Lycidas wrote...

For me the bionade could have been interesting if it was used to alter the next skill you use. For example: Activating bionade and then Singularity gives you an exploding Singularity, bionade + Throw gives you a biotic projectile that explodes on impact, bionade + warp gives you an AE warp, bionade + SW a cluster explosion effect.
I realize we seem to get some of that by regular skills in ME 3 but still I thought it would have been a cool idea.

I like the idea of this sort of thing. It seems like it might be a bugger to implement but I could use that in my arsenal. I like the complex aspect to it there is a chance to mess up with it. the only thing I kinda see that would be wonky it is would sort of defeat the purpose of the grenade being off the global cooldown.

The other thing I havn't really thought about is what the evolutions of bionade are going to do. The evolutions could be the key point to saveing the bionade and actually allowing it to be a power we can work with. The other thing is I really wish bioware could release info on if it will be timed explosion or impact explosion. Timed I can work with and that excites me impact not so much

[Shepard the Leper]

Dewart wrote...

I believe any questions you have asked me have been answered in some of my other posts on this topic. Some of those quotes from me you have snipped up and taken out of context a wee bit.

Now that that is out of the way I can clearly see you have an opinion and you definatly will not sway from it. I admire that trait. You are totally entitled to your opinion but it is an opinion that I do not share.

I stand by the fact that the adept was perfect in Mass Effect 2 and I am confident that I will find more of the same from ME3. I still believe the adept will remain a unique class without a new power purely because of how it can handle biotics in comparison to the other classes. We still get a new power that we really don't need(IMO) and I am confident that it won't be as much of a let down as we are initially expecting.

I'm afraid you still missed my point. I'm not talking about whether or not it's going to be fun to play this game. I wouldn't be here if I thought otherwise. And BTW, I actually find it rather funny to be on this side of the argument for a change - usually I'm the one who tries to dismiss the "ME2 biotic powers suck" claims that are common whenever the Adept is involved That's however not what I've been saying (although I do like to exaggerate a little to get the message through

Forgive me when I say that the ME2 Adept is not perfect. It has lots of cool stuff and the fundamentals are solid, but Singularity didn't provide what it should have, and Shockwave (despite its (limited) usefulness) is a redundant power (for the Adept class).
I wouldn't change much, if it was up to me, I would make Singularity an insta-cast power (something the Adept lacks) and I would replace Shockwave with another (existing) biotic power - Stasis and Barrier topping the list of potentials (both powers have far greater synergy and/or enhance gameplay options than Shockwave does = better).

Fortunately, the other major issue did get resolved: no more stupid weapon (type) restrictions

However, my main issue is about diversity. Although Singularity is the weakest of ME2's signature powers, it's still the best (IMHO) mainly because it encourages using other abilities instead of blocking them like it does for most other classes. The ability to use Singularity and to integrate it into the "standard" ME gameplay is THE reason why the ME2 Adept is a lot of fun to play. That part has been taken away or at least reduced considerably in ME3 (you no longer have to play Adept to have fun with Singularity, it has become a "standard" power - like Pull, Warp, Overload etc).

I fear the ME3 Adept playstyle will be very close to the optional playstyles of (some) other classes. I've already posted a link to a ME2 Vanguard video (who teamed up with Liara) to support my claim. I believe anyone with some experience playing the ME2 Adept on Insanity has to admit that the playstyle of the Vanguard (+Liara) in the video is getting very close to what the Adept normally does. Overall I consider that an improvement, and from what I've seen Bioware invested a lot of effort in "fixing" the other classes so Vanguards have a little more to do than spamming Charge 24/7. That's great news. To play the ME3 Vanguard, with improved abilities and Nova, plus Liara on the team should make it a potent biotic warrior who also has Charge to spice things up.

The problem is not the improvement of the Vanguard, or the tweaks to the power system in general. It's the lack of having something unique to toy around with. Something that makes you feel you're playing the biotic specialist and not someone with a random set of "standard" biotic powers - regardless how powerful or cool they might be.

I know my ideas are not good enough for you (and I respect that) but they are good enough for me. I think at this point you and I must agree to disagree.

Now what we can agree on is that we both are skeptical of the bionade idea and would have liked something else in it's place. I however believe that the developers likely tried multiple ideas before deciding on the bionade. Your stance seems to (this is my asumption I am sorry if it is wrong) believe that it was more of a last minute decision. Neither of us really know for sure. I do believe both of us could have an enjoyable time brainstorming ideas what could be put in place other than the bionade. I'm not sure any of those ideas would ever be able to make it into the game at this point but it would still be fun to speculate. I do believe we could also have fun brainstorming ideas about what the bionade could do for the adept. I would find it more likely that those ideas could be considered by developers this close to release. (tweaking vs redo)

My gripe with Bioware's ME3 approach is their "conservatism". I don't like their (apparent) stubbornness to hold on to the ME2 power system - every class has the exact same (power) loadout plus one extra, and all bonus powers have remained bonus powers. It has been known, almost since release day, that some powers didn't suited the class(es) that got them. Instead of swapping a couple powers to improve the (class) system, they've chosen to stick to it and try to improve each power as best they could.
Consensus about something Adept related is usually wishful thinking at best, but even here at the BSN almost everyone agreed that Stasis should have been part of the default Adept loadout. Bioware will likely have their reasons to hold on to ME2's loadout, but I fail to see the point of looking for something new when everything you need is already at hand (as a bonus power, or in the hands of squadmates).

I'm kind of more along a wait and see sort of mentality. I also believe the other classes got a seemingly (on paper) flashier power because they needed it (other classes were underwhelming to me in ME2).

If on game release I find the bionade is awful and the adept becomes broken then I may very well be sharing your opinions. Until then I would like to agree to disagree about our vision of what an adept is and instead work together to brainstorm ideas.

I see you have taken a lot of effort in your post (kudos) and I hope I have achieved my goal in giving you a proper reply.

Us adepts need to unite and not be at each others throats

LOL, there's a group called "Adepts United" here at the BSN.

I always appreciate a constructive discussion where the participants at least try to understand the other's point of view. Obviously we cannot say much about how ME3 is going to be. It's gonna be fun, no doubt. Well, I just feel Bioware could have (quite easily) given me a little more to biotic-daydream about than these bionades