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Biotic Grenades: Not a good power for Adepts (gameplay-wise). Addendum 01/24/12


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#126
Cloaking_Thane

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CanonShepard wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

CanonShepard wrote...

If this thing was called Vortex or something like that, would it matter?


Do you put the "vortex" in a grenade and throw it?

What if there were no "grenade?" It was just a blue/purple ball of energy?


That changes the dynamics of the power, and assuming the animation is different than a grenade toss, it would be more palatable, although IMO still redundant to sheps current skill set.

Really its just the inverse of singularity and we have a skill set in place that does alot of that stuff already.

#127
MJvasNormandy

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Shepard the Leper wrote...

Vapaä wrote...

Well that totally justify the Adept, the only thing that is yet to be see (besides grenades) is whether or not you can have cooldown bonuses if your weapons loadout is reduced to the bare minimum. If it's the case, that would just be great: with power evolutions emphasing on cooldown reducing, and combos+biotic focus as bonus power+the new arc pistol (to strip shields) you can have the ultimate biotic warrior, and crowd control what you wish. Seriously I don't want stasis, since there's no synegy with other adept's powers, this power loadout has a great potential


It does NOT do the Adept any justice because it has NOTHING to do with the class. You're talking about general gameplay mechanics, not about that little extra playing each class should provide (which is what I'm talking about).

ME1's class system was pretty bad, because there's no point to play Vanguard (with Singularity bonus power) if you just completed an Adept playthrough (with a shotgun). They're identical thus not worth (my) while. ME2 did a far better job in giving each class its own unique flavor. Playing a Vanguard or Adept did make a huge difference (as it should be).

It seems that I cannot get the message through using words, so I've searched for a ME2 gameplay video - that's ironically titled "Adept or Vanguard?" - to clarify:

www.youtube.com/watch

The guy that made the video is playing a Vanguard (and rather well), but I'm seeing (ME2) Adept gameplay here: Singularities, enemies flying all over the place, biotic combos, warp explosions, crowd control and smart use of the environment. Stuff like this is only possible with Liara around (when not playing Adept); she wasn't in ME2 (LotSB only), but she will be in ME3.

I don't want the ME3 Adept to become a Vanguard without Charge, Nova, and Inferno Ammo (I fear they're gonna be just that). I do like improved biotic potential for the ME3 Vanguard (which was lacking in ME2), but I'd also like the ME3 Adepts to have something extra. They're the biotic specialists after all, not the amateurs.

I don't care about Adepts being weaker or slower killers than the other classes; I don't care about protection blocking certain biotic abilities. I DO care about having an unique experience with all six classes - and thus far there's little to nothing showing signs that make the Adept class stand out in any way :(


Very much agree with your closing paragraphs, couldn't have said it better myself.

#128
Vapaa

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Shepard the Leper wrote...
It does NOT do the Adept any justice because it has NOTHING to do with the class. You're talking about general gameplay mechanics, not about that little extra playing each class should provide (which is what I'm talking about).


It makes biotic stuff > biotic > fits adept

Shepard the Leper wrote...
I don't want the ME3 Adept to become a Vanguard without Charge, Nova, and Inferno Ammo (I fear they're gonna be just that). I do like improved biotic potential for the ME3 Vanguard (which was lacking in ME2), but I'd also like the ME3 Adepts to have something extra. They're the biotic specialists after all, not the amateurs.


Yes, there are biotic specialits, just read the ME3 skill trees of singularity, pull, throw, shockwave, warp, biotic mastery....even better, you have cooldown bonuses if you don't carry much stuff, tell tme hat doesn't fit Adepts.

Shepard the Leper wrote...
I don't care about Adepts being weaker or slower killers than the other classes; I don't care about protection blocking certain biotic abilities. I DO care about having an unique experience with all six classes - and thus far there's little to nothing showing signs that make the Adept class stand out in any way :(


Well everything I see makes me feel like my Adept will be droping her AR this time and become the biotic godness she should be in ME2.

Modifié par Vapaä, 24 janvier 2012 - 06:31 .


#129
jasonsantanna

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@Cancer Puppet couldn't be that the grenade has a mass effect charged detonator in side of it once charged and thrown you have x amount of time before it detonates. . . .

#130
Shepard the Leper

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Vapaä wrote...

It makes biotic stuff > biotic > fits adept

Yes, there are biotic specialits, just read the ME3 skill trees of singularity, pull, throw, shockwave, warp, biotic mastery....even better, you have cooldown bonuses if you don't carry much stuff, tell tme hat doesn't fit Adepts.

Well everything I see makes me feel like my Adept will be droping her AR this time and become the biotic godness she should be in ME2.


Well, you clearly have no clue about what I'm trying to say so I leave it be.

I'm happy for you that you're so excited about the ME3 Adept, I, unfortunately, don't share your optimism. Oh, and I definitely don't want the Adept to become godlike, that would completely ruin my ME3 release day.

#131
Vapaa

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Shepard the Leper wrote...

Well, you clearly have no clue about what I'm trying to say so I leave it be.


Maybe, my english isn't very good.

Shepard the Leper wrote...

I'm happy for you that you're so excited about the ME3 Adept, I, unfortunately, don't share your optimism. Oh, and I definitely don't want the Adept to become godlike, that would completely ruin my ME3 release day.


That was an expression, what I mean is that my Adept in ME3 will finally be able to handle most of situtations with her powers alone (in ME2 she was really Vanguard-esque with that AR).

Modifié par Vapaä, 24 janvier 2012 - 06:54 .


#132
The Spamming Troll

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Shepard the Leper wrote...

Vapaä wrote...

Well that totally justify the Adept, the only thing that is yet to be see (besides grenades) is whether or not you can have cooldown bonuses if your weapons loadout is reduced to the bare minimum. If it's the case, that would just be great: with power evolutions emphasing on cooldown reducing, and combos+biotic focus as bonus power+the new arc pistol (to strip shields) you can have the ultimate biotic warrior, and crowd control what you wish. Seriously I don't want stasis, since there's no synegy with other adept's powers, this power loadout has a great potential


It does NOT do the Adept any justice because it has NOTHING to do with the class. You're talking about general gameplay mechanics, not about that little extra playing each class should provide (which is what I'm talking about).

ME1's class system was pretty bad, because there's no point to play Vanguard (with Singularity bonus power) if you just completed an Adept playthrough (with a shotgun). They're identical thus not worth (my) while. ME2 did a far better job in giving each class its own unique flavor. Playing a Vanguard or Adept did make a huge difference (as it should be).

It seems that I cannot get the message through using words, so I've searched for a ME2 gameplay video - that's ironically titled "Adept or Vanguard?" - to clarify:

www.youtube.com/watch

The guy that made the video is playing a Vanguard (and rather well), but I'm seeing (ME2) Adept gameplay here: Singularities, enemies flying all over the place, biotic combos, warp explosions, crowd control and smart use of the environment. Stuff like this is only possible with Liara around (when not playing Adept); she wasn't in ME2 (LotSB only), but she will be in ME3.

I don't want the ME3 Adept to become a Vanguard without Charge, Nova, and Inferno Ammo (I fear they're gonna be just that). I do like improved biotic potential for the ME3 Vanguard (which was lacking in ME2), but I'd also like the ME3 Adepts to have something extra. They're the biotic specialists after all, not the amateurs.

I don't care about Adepts being weaker or slower killers than the other classes; I don't care about protection blocking certain biotic abilities. I DO care about having an unique experience with all six classes - and thus far there's little to nothing showing signs that make the Adept class stand out in any way :(


your point of veiw on the adept and the biotic grenade is spot on. the biotic grenade is not going to make adept players happy, its going to make soldier players who try an adept playthrough once, happy.

what if biotic grenade is better then the rest of my biotics? what if it CCs protected enemies? is the point in playing a pure biotic user, to throw as many grenades as possible? i sure hope ME3s adept gameplay doesnt revolve around biotic grenades.

Modifié par The Spamming Troll, 24 janvier 2012 - 07:50 .


#133
Shepard the Leper

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Vapaä wrote...

Maybe, my english isn't very good.

That was an expression, what I mean is that my Adept in ME3 will finally be able to handle most of situtations with her powers alone (in ME2 she was really Vanguard-esque with that AR).


Alright, I'll try one last time ;)

I'm sure the ME3 Adept will be fun to play. If ME3 gameplay is anything like ME2, I'll be a happy guy. At this point we we can only look at the tools available to every class (on paper).
I see five "Commander Shepards" and one "Soldier 2nd class Shepard". Five classes that bring totally unique skills to the battlefield, and one who is exactly like everyone else (on the team).
Adepts can use an assault rifle equipped with Incendiary Ammo; knock down enemies with Concussive Shot; Overload shields; Freeze and shatter and so forth. All those tricks are real nice, but killing enemies in slowmotion, to make oneself invisible, conjure turrets and whatnot are things you can only experience playing the relevant class. I want something like that for my Adept too - that's all.

#134
Vapaa

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The Spamming Troll wrote...

 i sure hope ME3s adept gameplay doesnt revolve around biotic grenades.


From what I have seen, adept gameplay revolve around power synergy, THAT is IMO the strengh of the ME3 Adept: all those powers are designed to work together; Throw can now warplose, Pull can deal damage and the keystone of the adept can optimise the cooldown if you do biotic combos, and no other class can do extensive usage of biotics like the Adept. Adept playstyle doesn't just revolve around Warp like in ME2, now all powers seems to work with each other and to me this is the adept uniqueness.
Vanguard has a shiny Charge and Nova ? Adept powers may seem lamer, but togheter, they're outstanding :police:

Modifié par Vapaä, 24 janvier 2012 - 08:52 .


#135
Lycidas

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I think just like the Adept in ME2 the class is not focused one skill like Soldier, Vanguard, Sentinel and Infilitrator are. What makes the Adept fun to play is the synergy of powers used in combination. That makes the class unique.
Still I did not like to share Singularity with Liara...

#136
BatmanPWNS

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Why can't Adept Shepard do some Final Flash?

Everyone would be happy except the lore maniacs.

#137
The Spamming Troll

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Vapaä wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

 i sure hope ME3s adept gameplay doesnt revolve around biotic grenades.


From what I have seen, adept gameplay revolve around power synergy, THAT is IMO the strengh of the ME3 Adept: all those powers are designed to work together; Throw can now warplose, Pull can deal damage and the keystone of the adept can optimise the cooldown if you do biotic combos, and no other class can do extensive usage of biotics like the Adept. Adept playstyle doesn't just revolve around Warp like in ME2, now all powers seems to work with each other and to me this is the adept uniqueness.
Vanguard has a shiny Charge and Nova ? Adept powers may seem lamer, but togheter, they're outstanding :police:


on casual, yes, biotics are extremely devestating.

although on insanity, theres no such thing as adept synergy. you use singularity, followed by warp, and repeat. thats how adepts worked around enemy protections, by not using the majority of their abilities. thats not synergy, thats poor game design.

what is a fully evolve exploding-armor-peircing-mega-amped-up throw going to do against enemy protections?

if the answer is 'cause a half second stagger' then the adept is still the same ME2 adept, but with an unwanted biotic grenade.

whop dee frickin doo, bioware.

#138
Shepard the Leper

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Lycidas wrote...

I think just like the Adept in ME2 the class is not focused one skill like Soldier, Vanguard, Sentinel and Infilitrator are. What makes the Adept fun to play is the synergy of powers used in combination. That makes the class unique.
Still I did not like to share Singularity with Liara...


I'm under the impression that Bioware have gone some way to counter the spamming of one power (for some classes). That's a good thing.

The fact that the Adept has a collection of powers with nice synergy is not really important. ME isn't a solo endeavor, Shepard has two mates to help out in combat (plus the global cooldown system). A squad with 3 Overloads, or 3 Pulls, or 3 Shockwaves is rather pointless and counter-productive on the harder difficulty levels. To get the most out of power combos one needs a versatile squad, preferably one teammember for each power required to execute the relevant combo (so you can get the most out of the effect). This means that nearly all classes share the same power-combo potential, only the powers they use (and the sequence) will be slightly different (a Vanguard Pulls the target and uses a squadmate to detonate vs a Sentinel who uses a squadmate to Pull and detonates him/herself). And you already mentioned Liara and her Singularity.

Unfortunately, the ME3 Adept will be the "best" combo-ing class. But only because the other classes have got better things to do. I would have settled with anything extraordinary, it doesn't even have to be useful, just something really Adeptish. But we got to have grenades, the "best" thing Bioware could come up with in two year ...

My poor Adept Shep, completely neglected by its Creators :crying:

#139
CanonShepard

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I do recall at one point, one of the designers said that the Adept was TOO good on Insanity and that he had to nerf it. It was from a long time ago so you'd have to go way back in the Twitter thread to find it.

#140
Vapaa

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Shepard the Leper wrote...

Alright, I'll try one last time ;)

I'm sure the ME3 Adept will be fun to play. If ME3 gameplay is anything like ME2, I'll be a happy guy. At this point we we can only look at the tools available to every class (on paper).
I see five "Commander Shepards" and one "Soldier 2nd class Shepard". Five classes that bring totally unique skills to the battlefield, and one who is exactly like everyone else (on the team).
Adepts can use an assault rifle equipped with Incendiary Ammo; knock down enemies with Concussive Shot; Overload shields; Freeze and shatter and so forth. All those tricks are real nice, but killing enemies in slowmotion, to make oneself invisible, conjure turrets and whatnot are things you can only experience playing the relevant class. I want something like that for my Adept too - that's all.


You want a signature power ? if so you won't be happy. To me a class is not just a signature power, but its overall philosophy; Vanguard has an exuberant playstyle, Infiltration is more like "distant warfare", Engineer is distraction an debuff, Soldier is just shoot stuff, Sentinel is support & tanking......and Adept is biotic mayhem,  and as far as the class goes, it goes the right way. Simply put: the Adept don't need a signature power, the overall power synergy IS their signature
Besides the Adept is not the only one left with no great signature power, the Soldier one is also pretty meh, but it's because the Soldier's signature is raw firepower so the Soldier also don't need a great signature power.

The Spamming Troll wrote...

on casual, yes, biotics are extremely devestating.

although on insanity, theres no such thing as adept synergy. you use singularity, followed by warp, and repeat. thats how adepts worked around enemy protections, by not using the majority of their abilities. thats not synergy, thats poor game design.what is a fully evolve exploding-armor-peircing-mega-amped-up throw going to do against enemy protections?

if the answer is 'cause a half second stagger' then the adept is still the same ME2 adept, but with an unwanted biotic grenade.

whop dee frickin doo, bioware.


You missed my point, I was talking about ME3.

Modifié par Vapaä, 24 janvier 2012 - 11:18 .


#141
Someone With Mass

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BatmanPWNS wrote...

Why can't Adept Shepard do some Final Flash?

Everyone would be happy except the lore maniacs.


It'd only take four minutes to charge the damn thing up, but it'd be worth it. :P

#142
Kakita Tatsumaru

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BatmanPWNS wrote...

Why can't Adept Shepard do some Final Flash?

Everyone would be happy except the lore maniacs.

They do, it's called Cain.

#143
Ahglock

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God I hope the complaining has an effect, though given how late in the game it is I highly doubt it.

#144
Lycidas

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Shepard the Leper wrote...
The fact that the Adept has a collection of powers with nice synergy is not really important.

IMHO it is that's what makes the class stand out. Not considering it for something unique or important is doing the class wrong. I really don't know what makes people play as an Adept (note counting ME 1 here) if not the power combos.

Shepard the Leper wrote... 
ME isn't a solo endeavor, Shepard has two mates to help out in combat (plus the global cooldown system). A squad with 3 Overloads, or 3 Pulls, or 3 Shockwaves is rather pointless and counter-productive on the harder difficulty levels. To get the most out of power combos one needs a versatile squad, preferably one teammember for each power required to execute the relevant combo (so you can get the most out of the effect).

In ME2 you needed a 3 biotics squad to max your synergy potential. On every mission that somewhat required a tech or tank you felt a bit crippled as an Adept. Thats why it is importent to improve the combo potential for the class so you end up more flexible with your squad set up.
And thats what I think BW tried to do in ME 3

Shepard the Leper wrote...  
This means that nearly all classes share the same power-combo potential...

I think this is wrong. What I see on the paper is no class has more biotic power-combo potential as an Adept. And thats exaclty how it should be.

Shepard the Leper wrote...   
Unfortunately, the ME3 Adept will be the "best" combo-ing class.

True hands down

Shepard the Leper wrote...   
But only because the other classes have got better things to do.

IMHO there is noting better than combining biotic powers to control the battlefield. That is why I'm actually palying an Adept. 

Shepard the Leper wrote... 
I would have settled with anything extraordinary, it doesn't even have to be useful, just something really Adeptish. But we got to have grenades, the "best" thing Bioware could come up with in two year ...

I have to agree here to some degree. The thought of a Biotic Grenade does not really excite me

#145
mybudgee

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I would love to see a 'final flash' for the adept. But only if Shep says "PURPLE POWER!!!"

#146
Kakita Tatsumaru

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Vapaä wrote...
Yes, there are biotic specialits, just read the ME3 skill trees of singularity, pull, throw, shockwave, warp, biotic mastery....even better, you have cooldown bonuses if you don't carry much stuff, tell tme hat doesn't fit Adepts.

When did biotic mastery became an adept power?

#147
Vapaa

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Kakita Tatsumaru wrote...

Vapaä wrote...
Yes, there are biotic specialits, just read the ME3 skill trees of singularity, pull, throw, shockwave, warp, biotic mastery....even better, you have cooldown bonuses if you don't carry much stuff, tell tme hat doesn't fit Adepts.

When did biotic mastery became an adept power?


It isn't, but when it comes to building a character, the passive class power is pretty much the keystone of it.

#148
Shepard the Leper

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Vapaä wrote...

You want a signature power ? if so you won't be happy. To me a class is not just a signature power, but its overall philosophy; Vanguard has an exuberant playstyle, Infiltration is more like "distant warfare", Engineer is distraction an debuff, Soldier is just shoot stuff, Sentinel is support & tanking......and Adept is biotic mayhem,  and as far as the class goes, it goes the right way. Simply put: the Adept don't need a signature power, the overall power synergy IS their signature.


Yes. When all classes get one or two signature powers, I expect something similar for the Adept class (which isn't the case).

Well, it seems we agree to disagree ;) I don't really care about the class' "philosophy". Apparently, you're happy with a class that only has common (teammate) powers as long as the codex says they're all "biotic powers" (or grenades). I want each class to have something special, something that makes it worthwhile to play each class at least once. The Adept has nothing; and synergy between Shep's powers is non-existing in ME - it takes two to tango combo (Adept Shepard will have to rely on teammates (like everyone else), or toss a grenade first - see my previous (or next) post for an in-depth explanation).

#149
Kakita Tatsumaru

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Vapaä wrote...
It isn't, but when it comes to building a character, the passive class power is pretty much the keystone of it.

That's not what I meant.
I though it was something from the adept DLC character, not from Shepard.

#150
Shepard the Leper

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Lycidas wrote...

IMHO it is that's what makes the class stand out. Not considering it for something unique or important is doing the class wrong. I really don't know what makes people play as an Adept (note counting ME 1 here) if not the power combos.


Power combos are fun - no question - but in ME2 the Adept at least had its own "unique" combo'ing power - Singularity. This is no longer the case, anyone can bring Liara and experience the only thing that made the ME2 Adept stand out.

In ME2 you needed a 3 biotics squad to max your synergy potential. On every mission that somewhat required a tech or tank you felt a bit crippled as an Adept. Thats why it is importent to improve the combo potential for the class so you end up more flexible with your squad set up.

And thats what I think BW tried to do in ME 3


You never need 3 biotic squadmates. Every ME2 (biotic) combo only uses two powers (Pull + Throw, or Singularity + Warp). You only need 3 squadmates when playing on Insanity, the third one has the task to remove protection to get the target ready for a biotic power combo (and biotic characters are lacking defense-stripping powers).

I have no doubt that BW improved the overall combo potential in ME3 - but this has nothing to do with the Adept because anyone can use those combos.

I think this is wrong. What I see on the paper is no class has more biotic power-combo potential as an Adept. And thats exaclty how it should be.


Combo potential is not limited to Shepard. You would be right if ME gameplay wasn't about teamwork, but Shepard is never alone, (s)he always has a team to support. Therefore it's pointless to look at classes without taking all potential teammembers in consideration too. I fail to see the difference between Shepard casting Singularity and using a squadmate to detonate, or Liara casting a Singularity and Shep detonates, or Shep casts both powers (and has to wait a couple seconds before detonating). It's the same thing (IMHO).

When I play ME(2), I don't look at what my Shepard can do in battle, I look at what my team can do. When facing lots of shielded enemies - for example - I bring a squadmate with Overload to handle those; a second one with Pull Field (so I can Overload-Pull enemy groups - taking them out of combat instantly = very powerful); and my Shep decides whether to finish the lot with a Warpbomb or by tossing them off the map with Throw or Shockwave. Those are highly effective combos. But they are not Adept-only, anyone can execute those combos. The ME2 Adept only had Singularity to spice things up if needed (or just for the lulz).

When you're going to ignore your team completely: shooting down protection, casting Pull or Singularity to setup, and finish with Warp or Throw (all by yourself) is not effective and you're not playing ME as it's supposed to (no teamwork). It's also very slow, requires constant cover-wait for shield/health regen-cast/shoot-cover etc. That's a boring way to play the game.

When you look at all classes' combo potential, the Sentinel rules supreme. They have powers to handle any protection, to setup combos, and finish them with either Warp or Throw - plus they can freeze enemies for potential extra effects.

On paper, without counting squadmates, the Adept is maybe the second-best combo'ing class. When you include the squad that "advantage" no longer exists.

IMHO there is noting better than combining biotic powers to control the battlefield. That is why I'm actually palying an Adept.



Yeah, that's what I liked about the class in ME2 too. Adept was topping my list of the class I'd play ME3 the first time, but with the current info the Adept has dropped to last place. I feel sad about that :(

I have to agree here to some degree. The thought of a Biotic Grenade does not really excite me.


The thing that frightens me the most is that I suspect Adepts have to throw a grenade first to be able to combo (effectively) on their own. It's just silly they require grenades to do what they should be doing in the first place.

Modifié par Shepard the Leper, 25 janvier 2012 - 01:45 .