393 réponses à ce sujet

[Cloaking_Thane]

*restrains from responding*

[Shepard the Leper]

MJvasNormandy wrote...

Well thanks for the preemptive apology. And yes, I prefer if we keep this thread on topic (not discussing "lore" aspects). But to that final point, note that the description of the Soldier's Frag Grenade from the leaked script (thanks to AVPen on Biotic Sage's thread) sounds eerily similar to the description of BioGrenades from Manveer Heir's tweet:

"...does a ton of force, flinging enemis across the screen."

Frag Grenade   Powerful explosives that rip through enemies and send them flying.

Aside from the biotic combo implications, their function seems similar.

Well, this is your party - I'm just gatecrashing

Yeah, I noticed the similarities too, hence the Flashbang grenade reference.

MELTOR13 wrote...

I don't personally think that the 'biotic grenade' is the coolest power in the world, but I'm not going to sit here and be an armchair devloper. If BioWare couldn't get Overpower to work as intended, they couldn't get it to work. Do I think they could have selected a different (/better) power to give Adepts? Yes. Barrier, IMO, would've been nice. It's an old throwback power from ME1 and I think it's an iconic power of the series, and we all know that Adepts could use a little more survivability.

To me it does look like Bioware neglected the Adept class. They've shown their skill with the other five, and had the option to pick an existing power that suited the class well. I don't understand why they need to fall back to grenades to fill the gap. That looks like incompetence to me, especially because it has been changed at such a late stage in development.

I think it's saying something that a lot of people would have been much happier with the ME3 Adept having Stasis instead of Shockwave and Barrier as the extra skill. A general cooldown bonus (a little better than the other classes) would have solved the "throwing grenade whilst on cooldown" issue (at least for me).

[Malanek]

OP does make some good points. They are made with a lot of speculation but superficially it does sound like the design of new powers is not very imaginative which has led to overlap, which then has a habit of descending into powercreep and imbalance. I hope it wasn't the evolution system that led to new powers being cut because they couldn't come up with all the needed evolutions.

[MELTOR13]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

To me it does look like Bioware neglected the Adept class. They've shown their skill with the other five, and had the option to pick an existing power that suited the class well. I don't understand why they need to fall back to grenades to fill the gap. That looks like incompetence to me, especially because it has been changed at such a late stage in development.

I think it's saying something that a lot of people would have been much happier with the ME3 Adept having Stasis instead of Shockwave and Barrier as the extra skill. A general cooldown bonus (a little better than the other classes) would have solved the "throwing grenade whilst on cooldown" issue (at least for me).

I'm not going to label anyone incompetent. They're on deadlines, and sometimes **** just won't work. I'm not going to jump into that armchair developer slot, because, frankly, most of the people on this board have horrendous ideas in regards to gameplay and balance in general. I don't know all the behind-the-scenes-stuff so I won't try to believe I've got it all figured out. 

As I said before, ANYTHING can look great on paper. It's usually not near as simple as you think it is.

[Shepard the Leper]

MELTOR13 wrote...

I'm not going to label anyone incompetent. They're on deadlines, and sometimes **** just won't work. I'm not going to jump into that armchair developer slot, because, frankly, most of the people on this board have horrendous ideas in regards to gameplay and balance in general. I don't know all the behind-the-scenes-stuff so I won't try to believe I've got it all figured out. 

As I said before, ANYTHING can look great on paper. It's usually not near as simple as you think it is.

May I ask why the heck you've joined this discussion? If it's to say that everybody who criticizes Bioware is a moron, I've got nothing more to say to you.

[CanonShepard]

Shepard the Leper wrote...

MELTOR13 wrote...

I'm not going to label anyone incompetent. They're on deadlines, and sometimes **** just won't work. I'm not going to jump into that armchair developer slot, because, frankly, most of the people on this board have horrendous ideas in regards to gameplay and balance in general. I don't know all the behind-the-scenes-stuff so I won't try to believe I've got it all figured out. 

As I said before, ANYTHING can look great on paper. It's usually not near as simple as you think it is.

May I ask why the heck you've joined this discussion? If it's to say that everybody who criticizes Bioware is a moron, I've got nothing more to say to you.

He's not saying you can't disagree with the decision. He's just saying not to call them incompotent or anything like that because they couldn't get Overpower to work how people wanted to.

Modifié par CanonShepard, 25 janvier 2012 - 11:03 .

[Dewart]

MELTOR13 wrote...

No other class has the available biotic combo potential that the Adept does.

"durr hurr all classes can warp bomb" - spoken like someone who doesn't know how to play an Adept. If you think the only draw of an Adept is Singularity-->Warp, then I honestly don't even know why you are a fan of the class. No other class is capable of matching what the Adept can do in regards to potential biotic prowess, because no other class has Singularity, Pull, Throw, Warp, and Shockwave in it's arsenal. Squadmate powers can't be aimed, and can't really take advantage of any insta-kills.

Vanguards have Pull, but they can't use it in the same way that Adepts do, because they don't Throw. Sentinels have Warp, but they can't really use it in the same way that Adepts do because they don't have access to a complimentary power like Singularity/Pull. Soldiers can use Warp bombs, if they want to lug Liara everywhere and hope that the Secret Squadmate has access to Warp (I'm not sure if SS's full power set is known or not).

Just because they don't have an exclusive power doesn't mean that their playstyle isn't unique, and we haven't even started talking about the addition of bonus powers and what that can do to change up the class's style.

If you limit yourself to one or two powers, then yes, your Adept will be pretty dull. As will pretty much every other class you use.

Besides, this is all baseless speculation. You are crying about milk that hasn't even been spilt yet.

MELTOR13 wrote...

I'm not going to label anyone incompetent. They're on deadlines, and sometimes **** just won't work. I'm not going to jump into that armchair developer slot, because, frankly, most of the people on this board have horrendous ideas in regards to gameplay and balance in general. I don't know all the behind-the-scenes-stuff so I won't try to believe I've got it all figured out. 

As I said before, ANYTHING can look great on paper. It's usually not near as simple as you think it is.

After reading through this whole topic I would have to say that these two posts have to be the most intelligent ones. It's neat that they come from the same person. good on you sir. 

Most people in here are complaining about nothing. I agree to an extent that the biotic grenades seem a bit redundant (only on paper). If that is the case once we get the game then the solution is simple. In fact the solution has already been posted very early in the discussion.

Ahglock wrote...

The only good thing about the power is it makes leveling your skills easier since it is an easy choice to skip. That I guess is the cool new feature of the adept, his unique power is so lame you wont waste points on it so you will have more points for the things that matter.

don't know if this person was saying this as a joke or not but truer words have never been spoken.

Now with all that aside the main points that keep surfacing which are completely baseless are:

The adept is forgotten.
The adept is going to be weak.
The adept is no longer unique.
The other classes got more attention.

Whine whine whine. The adept will be completely fine and we will all have just as much fun with the class as we did in the first two games. If you really need a fancy new power then you should be playing a different class.

I would like to add that the biotic grenade seems like it may be able to help the adept pull off combos. Pulling off combos and doing it with skill and style is what the adept class is all about.

Modifié par Dewart, 25 janvier 2012 - 11:15 .

[Cloaking_Thane]

Oh dear, you agree with the OP/topic and acknowledge the only solution we have is to ignore it, keeping in mind we will have 178 points which maxes all but one power and puts one at level 4 or so im told. Why on earth is that a palatable or meaningful solution to you

When alternatively, they could have chosen Barrier and satisfied more varied gameplay and a much needed defensive power for the adept and it's off cooldown.

What would you choose out of

Stasis, Barrier, Warp Ammo, Biotic grenade if you had one slot left for default adept shep

You are given: Pull, Throw, Warp, Shockwave, Singularity, passive

[Sailears]

Yeah I agree. I'm sure the adept will still play fantastically, but there's too many good powers that are restricted to the bonus slot because of this grenade.

Barrier, stasis, biotic focus - shame you can only pick one of these...

Modifié par Curunen, 25 janvier 2012 - 11:50 .

[Dewart]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Oh dear, you agree with the OP/topic and acknowledge the only solution we have is to ignore it, keeping in mind we will have 178 points which maxes all but one power and puts one at level 4 or so im told. Why on earth is that a palatable or meaningful solution to you

If you need more than that then you probably arn't doing something right. I mean with Liara in the squad we'll be able to be rocking 2 singularities. Don't be pulling out you blackstorm rebuttle either because if you want to go there then an adept class could potentially have 3 singularities going. It has been stated that the adept powers are different dude. You're way too worried about this. Bioware is not going to let us adept players down. Anyone who thought the move from ME1 to ME2 for an adept was a let down wasn't a very good adept player IMO.In ME1 the adept was too overpowered is that what you want for ME3?

Cloaking_Thane wrote...


When alternatively, they could have chosen Barrier and satisfied more varied gameplay and a much needed defensive power for the adept and it's off cooldown.

What would you choose out of

Stasis, Barrier, Warp Ammo, Biotic grenade if you had one slot left for default adept shep

You are given: Pull, Throw, Warp, Shockwave, Singularity, passive

Personally the choice would have been between stasis or warp ammo. Likely stasis since I don't shoot too often but warp ammo also goes good with the sniper.

Modifié par Dewart, 25 janvier 2012 - 11:54 .

[Dewart]

Curunen wrote...

Yeah I agree. I'm sure the adept will still play fantastically, but there's too many good powers that are restricted to the bonus slot because of this grenade.

Barrier, stasis, biotic focus - shame you can only pick one of these...

We got through ME2 with only one. I'm not a fan of only picking one but it isn't going to break the adept for me unlike a few people involved in this topic. I loved ME2 especially the changes from the first. In my opinion Bioware had the adept pretty much perfect so we really don't need an extra power. Vanguard, engineer, and sentinel I found were lacking a bit so yeah they need a fancy new power for the third game.

[jasonsantanna]

CanonShepard wrote...

Shepard the Leper wrote...

MELTOR13 wrote...

I'm not going to label anyone incompetent. They're on deadlines, and sometimes **** just won't work. I'm not going to jump into that armchair developer slot, because, frankly, most of the people on this board have horrendous ideas in regards to gameplay and balance in general. I don't know all the behind-the-scenes-stuff so I won't try to believe I've got it all figured out. 

As I said before, ANYTHING can look great on paper. It's usually not near as simple as you think it is.

May I ask why the heck you've joined this discussion? If it's to say that everybody who criticizes Bioware is a moron, I've got nothing more to say to you.

He's not saying you can't disagree with the decision. He's just saying not to call them incompotent or anything like that because they couldn't get Overpower to work how people wanted to.

I was under the assumption that overpower was scrapped . . .  but some of the important functions of it was placed into the Adepts passive ability. . . so the birth of the Bgrenade was born to fill out the power . . . .
Is this correct. . . . ?

[Dewart]

yeah it was likely cut since it was just that overpowered probably made the adept similar to ME1 where you could have beat insanity with your eyes closed and without your squadmates

[Cloaking_Thane]

Dewart wrote...

If you need more than that then you probably arn't doing something right. I mean with Liara in the squad we'll be able to be rocking 2 singularities. Don't be pulling out you blackstorm rebuttle either because if you want to go there then an adept class could potentially have 3 singularities going. It has been stated that the adept powers are different dude. You're way too worried about this. Bioware is not going to let us adept players down. Anyone who thought the move from ME1 to ME2 for an adept was a let down wasn't a very good adept player IMO.In ME1 the adept was too overpowered is that what you want for ME3?

Personally the choice would have been between stasis or warp ammo. Likely stasis since I don't shoot too often but warp ammo also goes good with the sniper.

Look I can appreciate your point of view but lets please refrain from the "you're doing it wrong/not a good player stuff". This game is one of the easiest games on insanity you'll ever find, it's paper rock scissor combat, not mind blowing.

No one has said anything about a return to the ME1 adept.

Lastly, your last statement proves the point, grenade probably wasn't best option for a default adept shep. Beside the V character, almost unanimously every single adept player in here would have preferred almost anything else

[Patchwork]

For my play style I have to go with barrier.

Bgrenade sounds very underwhelming and out of my Sheps the adept is likely to be the last one I play- and probably on story mode.

I can't imagine scrapping overpower was a decision made lightly or quickly (telling your boss you've wasted company time on a project that's not going to work out isn't fun) but I wish the adept power set was more interesting even if we didn't get anything new.

[MJvasNormandy]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Dewart wrote...

snip*

Look I can appreciate your point of view but lets please refrain from the "you're doing it wrong/not a good player stuff". This game is one of the easiest games on insanity you'll ever find, it's paper rock scissor combat, not mind blowing.

Thank you. I was about to post this with almost the exact same phrasing. Let's keep this thread civil, we don't want a lock. Or worse, a devolved argument with no real discussion.

[Dewart]

I would also like to point out that no where in the game lore does it state that the adept/biotics rely solely on their powers. The argument that a biotic grenade does not fit the adept because it is a grenade is simply a non issue. We don't even know how the grenade works yet. Adepts who rely completely on their powers is a concept made up by individual players heck I'm even one of them. I'm one of those players that doesn't use unity/medigel in both games. For this game I hope Bioware finds a way to finally make me break down and actually use grenades/unity/medigel.

If the grenade part of the power is what's really bothering you, then you the individual are just going out of your way to find something to complain about.

[Dewart]

MJvasNormandy wrote...

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

Dewart wrote...

snip*

Look I can appreciate your point of view but lets please refrain from the "you're doing it wrong/not a good player stuff". This game is one of the easiest games on insanity you'll ever find, it's paper rock scissor combat, not mind blowing.

Thank you. I was about to post this with almost the exact same phrasing. Let's keep this thread civil, we don't want a lock. Or worse, a devolved argument with no real discussion.

sorry lol just trying to get my point across that the adept class is pretty much perfect the way it is where the other classes actually really need a new power to make them more interesting.

stepping on people's toes is not really my intent.

edit: also mentioning ME1 in that bit since I know there are a lot of players who were pretty upset that the adept was weakened/balanced a bit for ME2.

Modifié par Dewart, 26 janvier 2012 - 12:29 .

[MJvasNormandy]

Dewart wrote...

I would also like to point out that no where in the game lore does it state that the adept/biotics rely solely on their powers. The argument that a biotic grenade does not fit the adept because it is a grenade is simply a non issue. We don't even know how the grenade works yet. Adepts who rely completely on their powers is a concept made up by individual players heck I'm even one of them. I'm one of those players that doesn't use unity/medigel in both games. For this game I hope Bioware finds a way to finally make me break down and actually use grenades/unity/medigel.

If the grenade part of the power is what's really bothering you, then you the individual are just going out of your way to find something to complain about.

Read the OP. I have also posted several responses (but I don't expect you to have read those) stating that this thread is not about "lore." I have told people who "are on my side of the argument" not to use lore as a basis for an argument. I agree with you completely, it is a non issue--that's why I'm encouraging not to discuss it in this thread.

I never use medigel/unity/grenades either...lol. I like your style.

Edit: Regarding your post above^....thanks for understanding. I love debate and good discussion. I think it's important that both sides be represented in this thread. Which is why we all need to be respectful here. Not doing so weakens our arguments.

Btw, thanks for contributing to the thread, opinions like yours are needed. A one-sided debate, is not a debate.

Modifié par MJvasNormandy, 26 janvier 2012 - 12:31 .

[Cloaking_Thane]

I think it's fairly self evident that there were better options available, and that is the rub. You're devolving the topic quickly Dewart, and frankly you agree with the OP.

[Sailears]

Sure nothing extra is really needed as such, the class will handle the game fine I'm sure.

But a small switch like giving the secret squaddie the grenade and giving adept Shepard biotic focus would be my choice, because I prefer fewer explosions when playing a biotic. Obviously I have little idea of the consequences of a change like this, and it could lead to other problems which is why it is the way it is now.

[Dewart]

MJvasNormandy wrote...

Dewart wrote...

I would also like to point out that no where in the game lore does it state that the adept/biotics rely solely on their powers. The argument that a biotic grenade does not fit the adept because it is a grenade is simply a non issue. We don't even know how the grenade works yet. Adepts who rely completely on their powers is a concept made up by individual players heck I'm even one of them. I'm one of those players that doesn't use unity/medigel in both games. For this game I hope Bioware finds a way to finally make me break down and actually use grenades/unity/medigel.

If the grenade part of the power is what's really bothering you, then you the individual are just going out of your way to find something to complain about.

Read the OP. I have also posted several responses (but I don't expect you to have read those) stating that this thread is not about "lore." I have told people who "are on my side of the argument" not to use lore as a basis for an argument. I agree with you completely, it is a non issue--that's why I'm encouraging not to discuss it in this thread.

I never use medigel/unity/grenades either...lol. I like your style.

lol I read your introduction and then read through the whole rest of this discussion. By this point I had forgotten that was even part of the disclaimer. I did see lore poping up as an argument through the discussion and decided to make a comment.

Also you're the only other person I've heard of that avoids the medigel/unity anyone I've mentioned it to usually calls me crazy. Off topic question have you ever tried doing the the no unity/medigel/no squad deaths insanity playthrough lol if not try it out it can make you want to throw your controller/keyboard at points (ymir mech battles are really good then grrr)

[The Spamming Troll]

CanonShepard wrote...

Shepard the Leper wrote...

MELTOR13 wrote...

I'm not going to label anyone incompetent. They're on deadlines, and sometimes **** just won't work. I'm not going to jump into that armchair developer slot, because, frankly, most of the people on this board have horrendous ideas in regards to gameplay and balance in general. I don't know all the behind-the-scenes-stuff so I won't try to believe I've got it all figured out. 

As I said before, ANYTHING can look great on paper. It's usually not near as simple as you think it is.

May I ask why the heck you've joined this discussion? If it's to say that everybody who criticizes Bioware is a moron, I've got nothing more to say to you.

He's not saying you can't disagree with the decision. He's just saying not to call them incompotent or anything like that because they couldn't get Overpower to work how people wanted to.

im a moron who has no idea how to design a game.

but......

adept:
-singularity
-warp
-throw
-pull
-stasis
-barrier
-biotic focus

.......this is a better adept.

[MJvasNormandy]

Dewart wrote...

lol I read your introduction and then read through the whole rest of this discussion. By this point I had forgotten that was even part of the disclaimer. I did see lore poping up as an argument through the discussion and decided to make a comment.

Also you're the only other person I've heard of that avoids the medigel/unity anyone I've mentioned it to usually calls me crazy. Off topic question have you ever tried doing the the no unity/medigel/no squad deaths insanity playthrough lol if not try it out it can make you want to throw your controller/keyboard at points (ymir mech battles are really good then grrr)

Good god man! You are crazy! I always do no medigel/unity (mainly because I don't pause), and I have a no Shepard deaths insanity run...but a no squad deaths insanity playthrough??? To put my psyche at the mercy of companion AI?....wow!

The way it sounds, I would probably smash my monitor.

[Dewart]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

I think it's fairly self evident that there were better options available, and that is the rub. You're devolving the topic quickly Dewart, and frankly you agree with the OP.

I agree there are better options available but I also believe those options would have possibly overpowered the adept with the new balance for ME3.

if we had the regular adept powers plus barrier plus bonus then maybe the adept was op still.

I don't think biotic grenade was made up on a whim is what I'm getting at. Not to mention I'm sure they want to avoid taking those previous bonus powers away from the other classes. Some people have formulated their strategy based on those bonus powers and that was likely in the back of the developers' minds once they had scrapped overpower.