411 réponses à ce sujet

[Wulfram]

I try to make a point of not being a loyal fan, but instead one who buys only the products that I actually want, at prices which which seem like decent value to me.

And I suppose any content which builds off decisions in ME1 can be considered a reward for loyalty if you really want one.

Modifié par Wulfram, 24 janvier 2012 - 05:49 .

[ganthet2000]

Stanley Woo wrote...

I want a free coffee mug and balloon, mother[fathers]

[no swearing, please]

I know! I know! How about a free in game T-shirt for Shepard. It could say. "I saved the Citadel and Humanity and all I got was his lousy T-Shirt." What you you guys think? I could be unlocked if you have played ME1 and ME2.

[eyesofastorm]

Il Divo wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...

Loyalty is a two way street. And you're right... it's a concept that has little meaning between Bioware and it's "long-time fans" anymore.

I'd say that kind of "loyalty" never existed. When did Bioware start rewarding long time fans with exclusive content simply for buying their previous products? That's more in line with what the OP is suggesting. I don't recall KotOR deals for people who bought Neverwinter Nights.

This is how I look at it: There was a solid decade where I would buy a game that Bioware made based solely on the fact that they made it because I knew they were making games for me.  I was loyal to them because I knew they were loyal to their established fan base.  A point in time came where they became more concerned with those who were not their established fans.  I suspect they began to take their established fans for granted and assumed that this established base would chase them as they chased those with different tastes.  As I said, loyalty is a two way street.

edit:  I am no longer a loyal fan.  That's probably obvious.  I didn't buy DA2 and if the Origin policy doesn't change, I won't buy ME3 even though I'm faily well dying to play it.  If I go two major releases without a purchase, I'd say the love affair is over.  Why am I still here?  I remember that decade fondly and I know Bioware is still probably more capable of making the sort of games I love than any other developer out there.  I want them back and I'm probably a little bitter that they couldn't care less about me.  A lover scorned and whatnot.  

Modifié par eyesofastorm, 24 janvier 2012 - 05:56 .

[AlanC9]

eyesofastorm wrote...
  I was loyal to them because I knew they were loyal to their established fan base.  A point in time came where they became more concerned with those who were not their established fans.  I suspect they began to take their established fans for granted and assumed that this established base would chase them as they chased those with different tastes.

I have to take strong exception to this. Unless you were a Bio fan from the BG1 days, I've been with them as long as you have, and they haven't gotten away from my tastes.

They've gotten away from your tastes, and I'm sorry for your loss. But you do not represent "established fans."

[eyesofastorm]

AlanC9 wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...
  I was loyal to them because I knew they were loyal to their established fan base.  A point in time came where they became more concerned with those who were not their established fans.  I suspect they began to take their established fans for granted and assumed that this established base would chase them as they chased those with different tastes.

I have to take strong exception to this. Unless you were a Bio fan from the BG1 days, I've been with them as long as you have, and they haven't gotten away from my tastes.

They've gotten away from your tastes, and I'm sorry for your loss. But you do not represent "established fans."

I have been with them since BG1 and bought every pc release up until DA2, but I'll accept that I don't have any way to prove that I am representative of "established fans'.  Of course that means that you can't make that claim for your part either.  I think it would be very difficult to argue that Bioware has not been moving away from the traditional RPG and more towards an action orientation though.  

Modifié par eyesofastorm, 24 janvier 2012 - 06:14 .

[izmirtheastarach]

AlanC9 wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...
  I was loyal to them because I knew they were loyal to their established fan base.  A point in time came where they became more concerned with those who were not their established fans.  I suspect they began to take their established fans for granted and assumed that this established base would chase them as they chased those with different tastes.

I have to take strong exception to this. Unless you were a Bio fan from the BG1 days, I've been with them as long as you have, and they haven't gotten away from my tastes.

They've gotten away from your tastes, and I'm sorry for your loss. But you do not represent "established fans."

That's the point. No one represents anyone but themselves. All anyone can say is whether the games appeal to them personally. One single person. Not a group.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 24 janvier 2012 - 06:14 .

[AlanC9]

eyesofastorm wrote...
I have been with them since BG1 and bought every pc release up until DA2, but I'll accept that I don't have any way to prove that I am representative of "established fans'.  Of course that means that you can't make that claim for your part either.  I think it would be very difficult to argue that Bioware has not been moving away from the traditional RPG and more towards an action orientation though.  

Sure. Neither of us speaks for "established fans." No one does, because there's no such thing. There are just individual fans with individual tastes. (Ninja'd by izmir)

And, yep, they've moved away from traditional CRPGs in some ways. Not far enough for my tastes -- my problem with ME2 was that it fixed inventory but didn't go to the logical conclusion and remove credits and shops altogether. Also that it let you screw around before the IFF mission so that you could do all the sidequests without bad consequences, which is a CRPG tradition as well, and a bad one.

Modifié par AlanC9, 24 janvier 2012 - 06:30 .

[royceclemens]

I've played Mass Effect since November 20, 2007 and Mass Effect 2 since January 26, 2010. And come Mass Effect 3 what will I have to show for it?

An endlessly replayable game, twenty-five gamerscore for importing it, and nothing.

NOTHING!

But seriously, the reward for the thing I made possible is the thing I made possible. We played it, we loved it, we got the word out and here we are five years later. Not every trilogy reaches fruition. Just ask Advent Rising.

[Dewart]

Forsythia wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

...

EDIT: I should add that usually, if and when we offer something extra like a bonus DLC or something, we try to offer it to as many fans as possible, so "loyalty" has nothing to do with it.

I agree with almost the entire post, but this last edit seems a bit off from a company that likes to throw around exclusive promotional and pre-order items.

This
I don't like debating fan loyalty. We are all loyal fans here (other than the ones openly denouncing that)
I have no problem with Bioware games they are high quality no matter what anyone says.

The one thing I will dislike and debate is the word exclusive (what it means to fans and what it means to Bioware)

I don't expect free but I don't expect to be teased like dangling a piece of bacon in front of a dog.

I know I know that what I expect and it's not how it is (sigh)

[stonbw1]

For me, one great expression of BW's appreciation to "loyal fans" would simply be the meaningful references to storylines/characters of ME1 & 2. ( I stress "meaningful").

[Dewart]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

That's the point. No one represents anyone but themselves. All anyone can say is whether the games appeal to them personally. One single person. Not a group.

also agree very much with this statement I think it clears up the loyalty debate

[eyesofastorm]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sure. Neither of us speaks for "established fans." No one does, because there's no such thing. There are just individual fans with individual tastes. (Ninja'd by ismir)

And, yep, they've moved away from traditional CRPGs in some ways. Not far enough for my tastes -- 

I'm going to work with assumptions here, but I think they are relatively safe assumptions.  Take exception if you will.  If their established base was built of fans of RPGs and they are consistently moving away from RPGs, then is it not logical to conclude that they are slowly abandoning their established base?  You yourself said that they just haven't moved far enough.  How many more games before they have moved far enough?  I'm not certain, but I seem to recall seeing you deriding DA2.  If that is correct, then have they not moved far enough already?  I know that I cannot speak for anyone but myself, but I think there is some validity to the statement that I made.

[ratzerman]

I guess this means there won't be any trilogy-spanning achievements.

It would've been cool to make one for importing a save that started in ME1, or for remaining loyal to the same romance through all three games, or... you know... stuff.

[izmirtheastarach]

Dewart wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

That's the point. No one represents anyone but themselves. All anyone can say is whether the games appeal to them personally. One single person. Not a group.

also agree very much with this statement I think it clears up the loyalty debate

Right. There is no way that Bioware can be loyal to me personally, because they have no idea who I am or what I want. All that game studios can ever do is make game that they think people will like. Sometimes those people are those that have been playing their games for years, and sometimes they are brand new people.

[AlanC9]

eyesofastorm wrote...

I'm going to work with assumptions here, but I think they are relatively safe assumptions.  Take exception if you will.  If their established base was built of fans of RPGs and they are consistently moving away from RPGs, then is it not logical to conclude that they are slowly abandoning their established base?  You yourself said that they just haven't moved far enough.  How many more games before they have moved far enough?  I'm not certain, but I seem to recall seeing you deriding DA2.  If that is correct, then have they not moved far enough already?  I know that I cannot speak for anyone but myself, but I think there is some validity to the statement that I made.

The question is why those people liked RPGs in the first place.

If a player liked RPGs for the role-playing -- for playing a character in a story -- then Bioware games have gotten better, not worse. While DA2 is a setback from DAO, I'll take it hands-down over the NWN1 OC. And ME2 over ME1, because some of  the traditional RPG mechanics it lost (inventory and exploration) are things that make role-playing worse, not better. (At least, worse within the established parameters of the ME story; an RPG about a merchant explorer funding his own missions would need those things back. Though not in their ME1 forms)

If what a player liked about RPGs was the traditional RPG mechanics, then Bio games are getting worse.

So I don't have a problem with saying that Bio is favoring one part of its established base over another part.

Modifié par AlanC9, 24 janvier 2012 - 06:40 .

[izmirtheastarach]

eyesofastorm wrote...

I'm going to work with assumptions here, but I think they are relatively safe assumptions.  Take exception if you will.  If their established base was built of fans of RPGs and they are consistently moving away from RPGs, then is it not logical to conclude that they are slowly abandoning their established base?  You yourself said that they just haven't moved far enough.  How many more games before they have moved far enough?  I'm not certain, but I seem to recall seeing you deriding DA2.  If that is correct, then have they not moved far enough already?  I know that I cannot speak for anyone but myself, but I think there is some validity to the statement that I made.

See, but this also assumes that fans of RPGs are fans of "traditional RPGs" and nothing else. As I gamer, I am a fan of many different genres. If Bioware games become less "traditional RPG" and more something else, that has no impact whatsoever on whether I enjoy them or not.

You make some sort of assumption that all people who loved BG are unhappy with the direction Bioware games have taken. But again, all you can really say is how you feel. Sharing that opinion is valuable feedback for Bioware, but you can't expect them to make their games just for you.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 24 janvier 2012 - 06:42 .

[eyesofastorm]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Right. There is no way that Bioware can be loyal to me personally, because they have no idea who I am or what I want. All that game studios can ever do is make game that they think people will like. Sometimes those people are those that have been playing their games for years, and sometimes they are brand new people.

This is wrong.  They *know* in broad terms what the people who have bought their previous games like.  They *know* in broad terms what different market segments like and don't like in relation to the games they have made in the past.  They can then choose to develop their games in such a way as to appeal to those who have bought their games in the past or they can choose to develop their games in such a way to appeal those those who have not bought their games in the past.

[izmirtheastarach]

eyesofastorm wrote...

This is wrong.  They *know* in broad terms what the people who have bought their previous games like.  They *know* in broad terms what different market segments like and don't like in relation to the games they have made in the past.  They can then choose to develop their games in such a way as to appeal to those who have bought their games in the past or they can choose to develop their games in such a way to appeal those those who have not bought their games in the past.

I still don't get that. I like shooters. I like RPGs. I like plaformers. I like action games. I like all kinds of games. I have real trouble understanding your thesis that there is a group of gamers out there who like one kind of game and hate all others. If there are, then no wonder Bioware is changing their focus. Who would want to appeal only to these demanding weirdos when ther are millions of potential gamers out there they could be selling their games to?

[eyesofastorm]

AlanC9 wrote...
So I don't have a problem with saying that Bio is favoring one part of its established base over another part.

I could almost agree with this, but I don't think they are choosing a segment of their base over another segment.  I think they are chosing a market outside of their base over a segment of their base and this brings us back to the question of loyalty.  

[AlanC9]

eyesofastorm wrote...
 They can then choose to develop their games in such a way as to appeal to those who have bought their games in the past or they can choose to develop their games in such a way to appeal to those who have not bought their games in the past, as well as some of those who have bought their games in the past

Fixed.

[izmirtheastarach]

eyesofastorm wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
So I don't have a problem with saying that Bio is favoring one part of its established base over another part.

I could almost agree with this, but I don't think they are choosing a segment of their base over another segment.  I think they are chosing a market outside of their base over a segment of their base and this brings us back to the question of loyalty.  

It also brings up the question of idiocy. Which is to say that only focusing on your base and not trying to go outside it is a great way to drive your company into the ground.

[AlanC9]

eyesofastorm wrote...

I could almost agree with this, but I don't think they are choosing a segment of their base over another segment.

So even though I like what they are doing they are not favoring me?

You have this nasty habit of assuming that I either don't exist or am somehow not a part of their base.

[eyesofastorm]

izmirtheastarach wrote...
I still don't get that. I like shooters. I like RPGs. I like plaformers. I like action games. I like all kinds of games. I have real trouble understanding your thesis that there is a group of gamers out there who like one kind of game and hate all others. If there are, then no wonder Bioware is changing their focus. Who would want to appeal only to these demanding weirdos when ther are millions of potential gamers out there they could be selling their games to?

I have been a gamer for more than 20 years.  I have LOVED games from every genre that has risen and fallen in that time.  Bioware has almost been its own genre in that time.  No one else has shown the ability to make games quite like them.  I'd hate to lose an entire genre, if you will, so they can melt into the homogenous goop.  

[eyesofastorm]

AlanC9 wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...

I could almost agree with this, but I don't think they are choosing a segment of their base over another segment.

So even though I like what they are doing they are not favoring me?

You have this nasty habit of assuming that I either don't exist or am somehow not a part of their base.

They *are* favoring you, but it is incidental.  

[izmirtheastarach]

eyesofastorm wrote...

I have been a gamer for more than 20 years.  I have LOVED games from every genre that has risen and fallen in that time.  Bioware has almost been its own genre in that time.  No one else has shown the ability to make games quite like them.  I'd hate to lose an entire genre, if you will, so they can melt into the homogenous goop.  

And that is your opinion. It's a wholely valid one too. But there are millions of people who don't agree. And in the end, that's the only thing that really matters. If people don't like the games, they won't sell well. But people do like them, whether they are traditional RPGs or not.