411 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

eyesofastorm wrote...


I have been a gamer for more than 20 years.  I have LOVED games from every genre that has risen and fallen in that time.  Bioware has almost been its own genre in that time.  No one else has shown the ability to make games quite like them.  I'd hate to lose an entire genre, if you will, so they can melt into the homogenous goop.  

But that just gets us back to the question of what a Bioware game really is. For me, Bio games have gottten more Bioware-y. The interactive movie aspects, the VOd protagonist, drama over logic -- this is what Bio's always been about.

[izmirtheastarach]

eyesofastorm wrote...

They *are* favoring you, but it is incidental.  

Is it not then incidental that they are NOT favouring you? Seeing that they don't actually know you personally.

[AlanC9]

eyesofastorm wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
So even though I like what they are doing they are not favoring me?

You have this nasty habit of assuming that I either don't exist or am somehow not a part of their base.

They *are* favoring you, but it is incidental.  

Oh, I see. You're talking about your mental image of the decision-making process at Bio rather than any objective actions they've taken.

Not being a psychic, I'm not going to worry about what Bio's thinking about. Only what they do.

[izmirtheastarach]

Honestly, as long as they are still in the genre of "good games that are enjoyable to play", I could not care less whether they fit within arbitrary genre conventions.

[eyesofastorm]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...

I have been a gamer for more than 20 years.  I have LOVED games from every genre that has risen and fallen in that time.  Bioware has almost been its own genre in that time.  No one else has shown the ability to make games quite like them.  I'd hate to lose an entire genre, if you will, so they can melt into the homogenous goop.  

And that is your opinion. It's a wholely valid one too. But there are millions of people who don't agree. And in the end, that's the only thing that really matters. If people don't like the games, they won't sell well. But people do like them, whether they are traditional RPGs or not.

I was never agruing whether or not the games they are making sell well.  I was arguing about who broke trust first. I was loyal to them for a long time and it meant something... to me at least..  This whole line of conversation began with Stan essentially trashing the concept of loyalty.  And as for that last bit, I'd point you to the sales numbers of DA:O and DA2 and let your draw your own conclusions.  

[eyesofastorm]

AlanC9 wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
So even though I like what they are doing they are not favoring me?

You have this nasty habit of assuming that I either don't exist or am somehow not a part of their base.

They *are* favoring you, but it is incidental.  

Oh, I see. You're talking about your mental image of the decision-making process at Bio rather than any objective actions they've taken.

Not being a psychic, I'm not going to worry about what Bio's thinking about. Only what they do.

Because it's convenient for you at this time because what they do works out in your favor.  I don't begrudge you that.  But it doesn't invalidate any of the points I've been arguing.

[eyesofastorm]

AlanC9 wrote...
The interactive movie aspects, the VOd protagonist, drama over logic -- this is what Bio's always been about.

I'm sorry, but... how long did you say you went back?

[izmirtheastarach]

eyesofastorm wrote...

I was never agruing whether or not the games they are making sell well.  I was arguing about who broke trust first. I was loyal to them for a long time and it meant something... to me at least..  This whole line of conversation began with Stan essentially trashing the concept of loyalty.  And as for that last bit, I'd point you to the sales numbers of DA:O and DA2 and let your draw your own conclusions.  

You are still using these absurdly pretentious phrases. Broke trust? Did you have a binding agreement with Bioware about exactly what kind of games they would deliver to you?

The only loyalty Bioware can provide you is by making game they think are good. Whether you, and the fanbase at large agree with them about the level of quality in the game is neither here nor there. All they can do is try. They don't know if a game will succeed or not. If they did, DA2 might have been quite different. But the clearly thought they were moving in the right direction. 

The only thing that will prove they were not is the sales. No the fact that you personally didn't like it, but that it didn't sell as many copies as the original did. And even then you are just assuming that you know why it didn't.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 24 janvier 2012 - 07:16 .

[Dewart]

If the bioware broke trust first debate is coming down to:

They seem to be switching from traditional rpg to action and that is the best point.

I seem to remember some of the earliest games being action. MDK 2 anyone?

[Bad King]

Bioware will reward the loyal fans... but only if they pre-order these figurines.

[AlanC9]

eyesofastorm wrote...

Because it's convenient for you at this time because what they do works out in your favor.  I don't begrudge you that.  But it doesn't invalidate any of the points I've been arguing.

No. But they are based on speculation. 

And crazy speculation at that. Bio's decided that they can get along without gamers like you, but concluding that this means they've decided they can also get along without gamers like me is not supported by any evidence, and would require a very flawed decision-making process at Bioware; since they'd basically have to abandon all of their core competencies and brand identity to do it. It's not impossible -- that clown Apotheker tried something like this at Hewlett-Packard -- but you haven't made any case that they're doing it.

Modifié par AlanC9, 24 janvier 2012 - 07:31 .

[Stalker]

Your reward is that you enjoy the story much more if you have played previous Mass Effect's.

[AlanC9]

eyesofastorm wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...
The interactive movie aspects, the VOd protagonist, drama over logic -- this is what Bio's always been about.

I'm sorry, but... how long did you say you went back?

BG2; specifically, the CGW demo disk, since I had pretty well written off the CRPG genre as worthless until Bio came along. If Bio could have had fully voiced characters, cinematic cutscenes, and so forth in that game, they would have.

Modifié par AlanC9, 24 janvier 2012 - 07:40 .

[Leanansidhe]

I, too, have been a fan of BioWare's since Baldur's Gate 1.  I've been playing video games since Pong. (On a black and white tv, no less! )

I have all of their games.  I prefer DA2 to Origins, ME2 to ME1, and SW:TOR to KoTOR.  As far as I'm concerned, they just keep getting better and better.

Is that enough to make me an "established fan?"

What keeps giving certain people the right to make sweeping pronouncements regarding the "BioWare Fanbase," as if they, and they alone, are the arbiter of all things sacred about BioWare?  You only speak for yourselves.  Learn to live with it.

[eyesofastorm]

AlanC9 wrote...

And crazy speculation at that. Bio's decided that they can get along without gamers like you, but concluding that this means they've decided they can also get along without gamers like me is not supported by any evidence, and would require a very flawed decision-making process at Bioware; since they'd basically have to abandon all of their core competencies and brand identity to do it. It's not impossible -- that clown Apotheker tried something like this at Hewlett-Packard -- but you haven't made any case that they're doing it.

I agree on almost every point, but I don't think it's that crazy.  I think the evidence supports the conclusion.  The only change I'd make to what you said is that they had no expectation of losing their entire base.  I suspect they figured that a sizable portion of their base would be just fine with the change in direction and they were right.  I suspect they knew they'd lose a portion of their base and they were right about that as well.  Finally, I suspect that they knew going in the action direction would net them more fans than they lost and I think that outcome is still in question.  Again, the DA:O vs. DA2 sales figures are applicable here.  In the end though, if the assumption is correct, then my argument that Bioware is the guilty party in breaking the bond of loyalty first is supported.  What irks me and what drew me into the conversation was that Stan poo-poo'd the concept of loyalty.  To me, that comes off as a defense mechanism.

[AlanC9]

So we don't have an actual disagreement here, eyesofastorm ,except that you think that Bio owed your portion of the fanbase some sort of loyalty and I don't.

I just don't see how you could run a business on that definition of loyalty. How could you ever change anything? People complained when Bio abandoned BG1's open map for discrete areas in BG2, for instance.

Modifié par AlanC9, 24 janvier 2012 - 07:49 .

[eyesofastorm]

AlanC9 wrote...

So we don't have an actual disagreement here, eyesofastorm ,except that you think that Bio owed your portion of the fanbase some sort of loyalty and I don't.

I just don't see how you could run a business on that definition of loyalty. How could you ever change anything? People complained when Bio abandoned BG1's open map for discrete areas in BG2, for instance.

I think they owe *every* portion of the fanbase some sort of loyalty.  And I am ok with change.  I've stayed with them with the exception of DA2.  My problem is that they seem to have approached the problem of expanding the fanbase in the wrong way.  I would see them say, "How do we attract non-RPG fans into the RPG genre?" where it seems instead they have said, "How can we change our games to suit people who don't like RPGs?"  The difference is subtle but important.

Modifié par eyesofastorm, 24 janvier 2012 - 07:58 .

[Dewart]

From what I remember of the old bioware rpgs they always possesed more action than other rpgs from the same era. A lot of rpgs at that time would run turn based while bioware did the real time thing (with the nice pause featre). From what I'm seeing, technology today has allowed the action to get better. I think traditional the streamlining that has occured is making the games better again. I like having tons of items but I'm also not complaining about not having to spend 3 hours setting up my squad/party inventory in a dated interface.

[lolerk53]

Ahhh now I feel bad for owning Mass Effect only for PS3....
Sure I have ME1 and Two for PC but after I finished and ported my charcter to ME2, I instantly got bored since I played the game literaly for 600-700 hours on my PS3! (Yes I counted by the time it took me to finish the game on each save)

[AlanC9]

eyesofastorm wrote...
I think they owe *every* portion of the fanbase some sort of loyalty.  And I am ok with change.  I've stayed with them with the exception of DA2.  My problem is that they seem to have approached the problem of expanding the fanbase in the wrong way.  I would see them say, "How do we attract non-RPG fans into the RPG genre?" where it seems instead they have said, "How can we change our games to suit people who don't like RPGs?"  The difference is subtle but important.

Oh, god.... now you've done it.

I don't see how we get any further with this without opening up the "what is an RPG" question.

[eyesofastorm]

AlanC9 wrote...

eyesofastorm wrote...
I think they owe *every* portion of the fanbase some sort of loyalty.  And I am ok with change.  I've stayed with them with the exception of DA2.  My problem is that they seem to have approached the problem of expanding the fanbase in the wrong way.  I would see them say, "How do we attract non-RPG fans into the RPG genre?" where it seems instead they have said, "How can we change our games to suit people who don't like RPGs?"  The difference is subtle but important.

Oh, god.... now you've done it.

I don't see how we get any further with this without opening up the "what is an RPG" question.

I have no desire to go there for multiple reasons not the least of which is that we know such conversation are not allowed anywhere but off-topic.  For reference though, when I say RPG, I mean all the traditional trappings of western RPGs... not pieces and portions of them.  Anything less than the whole is... less than the whole.  I never understood the desire of some to distill that formula down beyond the fact that doing so will make a liquor that tastes better to some and worse to others.  

[Stanley Woo]

Wow, this conversation went to weird places.

I think they owe *every* portion of the fanbase some sort of loyalty.

If that's the kind of loyalty you're talking about, eyesofastorm, then i believe the fact that we're still here making the kinds of games that many RPG players like, the fact that we're around to talk to you guys, and the fact that we have evolved character and story-based games to the level we have, all speak to us still being "loyal" to several portions of our fanbase.

[eyesofastorm]

Stanley Woo wrote...
several

'Nuff said.  

[CannonO]

Personally, I never found the import rewards to be that rewarding in ME2.

[Iakus]

The reward for being a loyal Bioware fan is getting to play Bioware games. Tossing me free DLC for a game I won't like or play won't keep me a Bioware fan. Achievements don't get me playing games. The storyline that unlocks the achievements does.

That being said, Bioware has in the last couple of years, pretty much assumed that the two in the bush are more important than the one already in hand. They're assuming it'll stay there regardless, of where they go in pursuit of more birds.

Anyway, the point being, Bioware has a rare gift for narrative in games, unlike any other developers out there. Lately it seems they've been neglecting it for more, shall we say "non storyline aspects" of their games. "Resting on their laurels" as the saying goes. We'll see whether that trend continues in ME3. But I'd advise them to look at the games that put them on the map, and study what made them so popular. That's how they can reward "loyal fans"

Here's a hint: Epic. Not Awesome.