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Rewarding the loyal fans who made Mass Effect 3 Possible


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#326
Terror_K

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MELTOR13 wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Personally, I don't have any real expecations as far as basic "ME1 to ME2 to ME3" loyalty goes beyond a satisfying end to the trilogy and for the choices I've made before to have satisfying consequences.

The thing is though, I think BioWare shot themselves in the foot from the get-go for this to happen by not making the games a proper trilogy with all this "each game stands on its own" nonsense. Especially when they're going, "this is the best place to start" all the time and I recently read an article about how ME3 apparently hand-holds newcomers even more than ME2 did.

The fact is, due to them trying to hand-hold newbies and make sure they can jump in anywhere, the true potential of the series has been squandered and lost, IMO. ME2 felt far too removed from the original, trivialising stuff that should have been important or sweeping it under the rug, and largely just feeling isolated. Given comments about ME3 being the same, I find it hard to believe that things will be any different in this regard. Instead of having what could and should have been a really unique and diverse series where our choices mattered, we've got three seperate stories that are all essentially the same but with a slightly different flavouring here and there. The fact that the PS3 version(s) don't even really need the first game just seems to hit this home even more and make the first chapter come across as almost entirely superficial.


Translation:

BioWare doesn't make games exactly to my specifications, so I feel upset and bitter because I think I am entitled to some type of exclusiveness simply because they made games that I have liked in the past. 



I think I got that pretty much.


Not really. It's more a case of me expecting Mass Effect 3 to remain true to the original formula, and not keep pushing a bunch of over-the-top, dudebro nonsense in my face that makes it come across as designed more for the Gears of War and CoD fanbase than for those who became fans of Mass Effect with the original game. Mass Effect 3 doesn't have to be "Baldur's Gate in Space" or anything like that, but it should be "Mass Effect 3" and not "Gears of War with Dialogue Wheels 3."

Mass Effect, Dragon Age or anything else don't have to follow the same formula, rules and style as their prior flagship titles like Baldur's Gate, NWN and KotoR, but they should at the very least follow the same formula, rules and style as their direct predecessors.

#327
Mclouvins

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Rudy Lis wrote...


Sorry for cropping rest out.
I agree on this part. When I buy sequel (a.k.a. games with +1 number in title) I want to see practically same game it was before, with minimal changes.
If game passes through severe changes in gameplay, design - all I want is just different name, stating that game was "rebooted", "relaunched" or whatever that modern verbal diarrhea names it.
I don't care what game we talk about, if there are changes - reflect them in name. Different name. Fallout 3? Hell, no. Fallout DC - why not? Witcher: Assasin of kings - no problem (yes, I even poked Witcher), Witcher 2 - sorry, too much changes. Jagged Alliance: back in action? Yay, welcome! Space Rangers 1-2 - good, changes were minimal. Gothic 1-2-3 - fine, Arcania is crap, but it's Arcania, not Gothic 4, so no hard feelings. Half-life, Halo (though I dislike arsenal changes), NWN, Battlefield, Operation Flashpoint (from Bohemia), ArmA, ArmA2 - basically SoS, so no gripes here too.
I strongly support "If it ain't broke, don't fix it". But it's just me.
P.S. Don't colour me as Luddite. Changes have to be made from time to time (a.k.a. "bethesda, throw out that gamebryo crap"). But please, be consistent and reasonable with them and replace what's need to be replaced. And don't forget to reflect changes.Image IPB 


In four years you and I are going to have a talk about the merits of Call of Duty: MW7.

#328
Eclipse_9990

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I'm hoping I get a bonus for sticking with Sentinel for ME1, and ME2.

#329
android654

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Eclipse_9990 wrote...

I'm hoping I get a bonus for sticking with Sentinel for ME1, and ME2.


Your bonus is you get to be a sentinel in ME3

Feel special yet?:wizard:

#330
Rudy Lis

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Mclouvins wrote...

In four years you and I are going to have a talk about the merits of Call of Duty: MW7.


Unless they change their dealer - no. Image IPB

#331
Confused-Shepard

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Bioware sold out to the MAN! I liked them when they were underground! Too mainstream now!

#332
Tazzmission

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Confused-Shepard wrote...

Bioware sold out to the MAN! I liked them when they were underground! Too mainstream now!



dude they didnt sell out and if i had to pick who is the most evil that would be ms. i say that as a owner of the 360.

how often do you hear ea release a beta dema to spite a developer? because thats what ms did.

im not denying ea has a bad history  but they have changed a bit

#333
AlanC9

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Terror_K wrote...
Not really. It's more a case of me expecting Mass Effect 3 to remain true to the original formula, and not keep pushing a bunch of over-the-top, dudebro nonsense in my face that makes it come across as designed more for the Gears of War and CoD fanbase than for those who became fans of Mass Effect with the original game. Mass Effect 3 doesn't have to be "Baldur's Gate in Space" or anything like that, but it should be "Mass Effect 3" and not "Gears of War with Dialogue Wheels 3."


Leaving aside your opinion of the games, there's a couple of obvious problems here.

First, who gets to define what's the "original formula," as opposed to stuff that's in the first game but is extraneous to the formula?

Second, does a publisher have a duty to stick to the "original formula" even if the "original formula" is bad?

Modifié par AlanC9, 25 janvier 2012 - 06:45 .


#334
StephanieBengal

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Confused-Shepard wrote...

Bioware sold out to the MAN! I liked them when they were underground! Too mainstream now!


You're a ****ing idiot, since when is life about not making money and trying to come up? You must enjoy being broke. You must enjoy not being known to everyone. 

Heaven forbid that a company expands it's company and games to more people. 

Seriously, shut the hell up. Unless you work for the company all you're doing is making assumptions to make your sorry existence feel better. 

#335
StephanieBengal

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AlanC9 wrote...

Terror_K wrote...
Not really. It's more a case of me expecting Mass Effect 3 to remain true to the original formula, and not keep pushing a bunch of over-the-top, dudebro nonsense in my face that makes it come across as designed more for the Gears of War and CoD fanbase than for those who became fans of Mass Effect with the original game. Mass Effect 3 doesn't have to be "Baldur's Gate in Space" or anything like that, but it should be "Mass Effect 3" and not "Gears of War with Dialogue Wheels 3."


Leaving aside your opinion of the games, there's a couple of obvious problems here.

First, who gets to define what's the "original formula," as opposed to stuff that's in the first game but is extraneous to the formula?

Second, does a publisher have a duty to stick to the "original formula" even if the "original formula" is bad?


Someone gets it, thank you. 

#336
Inquisitor Recon

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StephanieBengal wrote...

Confused-Shepard wrote...

Bioware sold out to the MAN! I liked them when they were underground! Too mainstream now!


You're a ****ing idiot, since when is life about not making money and trying to come up? You must enjoy being broke. You must enjoy not being known to everyone. 

Heaven forbid that a company expands it's company and games to more people. 

Seriously, shut the hell up. Unless you work for the company all you're doing is making assumptions to make your sorry existence feel better. 


I think that was sarcasm...

#337
Terror_K

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AlanC9 wrote...

Leaving aside your opinion of the games, there's a couple of obvious problems here.

First, who gets to define what's the "original formula," as opposed to stuff that's in the first game but is extraneous to the formula?


For two examples, being originally dubbed as an "Action RPG" I expect the game to me more RPG than shooter and to have an RPG core. ME2 didn't, which the devs admitted to: they went back to the drawing board and gave it a Shooter core, then re-added (some of) the RPG elements on later. Christina Norman pretty much outlined this in her famous Powerpoint presentation for GDC. The second example is the concept of Mass Effect being a trilogy where choices and consequences mattered, but that seems to have either been exaggerated or a lie, because what we really have three seperate parts where the choices are a hint of varied flavours at best. Finally, Mass Effect was said to be an attempt at a homage to classic sci-fi of the 70's and 80's, etc. but as time has gone on it's taken a distinctly more modern Hollywood action movie approach to things.

Dragon Age is a lot easier to point to for failing of course. The original was supposed to be a return to BioWare's RPG roots, a proper PC fantasy RPG, and a spiritual successor to Baldur's Gate. The sequel was absolutely NONE of these things whatsoever, turning it's back on these principles. It was a console action RPG with limited roleplaying, reduced functionality and even went so far as to completely redesign the visual style of the game so that dark spawn, qunari and elves bore no resemblance to their original forms.

On top of that the style and feel of it should remain consistent. Changes and improvements should always be made, but none so drastic as to change the recipe to something else. If Mass Effect 1 is a cake, so too should ME2 and ME3 be cakes. Instead it seems more like ME1 was a cake and ME2 and ME3 are cookies of some kind, or perhaps a pie or dessert.

Second, does a publisher have a duty to stick to the "original formula" even if the "original formula" is bad?


Whether it's bad is a point of view. There are lots of things that I think are bad that other people like, and I don't expect those things to be retooled to suit me, I just go, "this isn't for me, it's for those who like that sort of thing, so they can have it." At the same time I don't expect the things that are aimed at me to be retooled to suit another audience either. There just seems to be too many companies and producers of entertainment out there who are trying to please as many as possible instead of realising that different people have different interests and making different products to suit these people.

Personally, I would say that ME2's formula is bad for instance, while many others would not. I admit that ME1 had many a flaw, but the style and feel of it and what it was trying to do, even if it didn't always quite pull it off, were part of its charm and appeal to me. ME2 had too many factors that, to me, seemed counterintuitive to the original. I often feel it's restricted me where it should give freedom, and given too much freedom where it should have restricted me. And it just never felt the same or like it was even trying to be the same. ME1 felt like it was made for me overall, despite its flaws... ME2 felt like it was deliberately not made for me because of its ones.

#338
G3rman

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Okay we get it, you disliked ME2. It won't be remade in the near future and ME3 is supposed to return with enhanced RPG features returning from ME1. If you dislike Bioware enough you wouldn't be on this forum I would reckon. However, you have expressed your dislike for their handling of past games to a great extent that will only lead to more arguments.

Is it necessary to continue?

#339
AlanC9

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Terror_K wrote...
For two examples, being originally dubbed as an "Action RPG" I expect the game to me more RPG than shooter and to have an RPG core. ME2 didn't, which the devs admitted to: they went back to the drawing board and gave it a Shooter core, then re-added (some of) the RPG elements on later. Christina Norman pretty much outlined this in her famous Powerpoint presentation for GDC.


Hmmm..... that wasn't what I took away from that presentation.

The second example is the concept of Mass Effect being a trilogy where choices and consequences mattered, but that seems to have either been exaggerated or a lie, because what we really have three seperate parts where the choices are a hint of varied flavours at best.


I gotta give you this one. Bio should never have promised something they were in no position to deliver.

Finally, Mass Effect was said to be an attempt at a homage to classic sci-fi of the 70's and 80's, etc. but as time has gone on it's taken a distinctly more modern Hollywood action movie approach to things.


What was 70's-80's sci-fi, anyway? Buck Rogers in the 25th Century? Blake's 7? Doctor Who? Aliens? Hell, Omega had a Blade Runner look to it, and that's what I think of when I think of 80's sci-fi.

In any event, Omega shouldn't have looked like the Citadel, since it wasn't the Citadel. The ME2 Citadel looked Citadel-y to me. The other places looked like what they should have looked like, too.

On top of that the style and feel of it should remain consistent. Changes and improvements should always be made, but none so drastic as to change the recipe to something else. If Mass Effect 1 is a cake, so too should ME2 and ME3 be cakes. Instead it seems more like ME1 was a cake and ME2 and ME3 are cookies of some kind, or perhaps a pie or dessert.


You see a difference, I don't. ME2 has a different look because you're going to different places.

Second, does a publisher have a duty to stick to the "original formula" even if the "original formula" is bad?


Whether it's bad is a point of view. There are lots of things that I think are bad that other people like, and I don't expect those things to be retooled to suit me, I just go, "this isn't for me, it's for those who like that sort of thing, so they can have it." At the same time I don't expect the things that are aimed at me to be retooled to suit another audience either. There just seems to be too many companies and producers of entertainment out there who are trying to please as many as possible instead of realising that different people have different interests and making different products to suit these people.

Personally, I would say that ME2's formula is bad for instance, while many others would not. I admit that ME1 had many a flaw, but the style and feel of it and what it was trying to do, even if it didn't always quite pull it off, were part of its charm and appeal to me. ME2 had too many factors that, to me, seemed counterintuitive to the original. I often feel it's restricted me where it should give freedom, and given too much freedom where it should have restricted me. And it just never felt the same or like it was even trying to be the same. ME1 felt like it was made for me overall, despite its flaws... ME2 felt like it was deliberately not made for me because of its ones.


I guess I don't have any disagreement with this, but I do have a question. Where did ME2 offer too much freedom?

#340
Terror_K

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AlanC9 wrote...

What was 70's-80's sci-fi, anyway? Buck Rogers in the 25th Century? Blake's 7? Doctor Who? Aliens? Hell, Omega had a Blade Runner look to it, and that's what I think of when I think of 80's sci-fi.

In any event, Omega shouldn't have looked like the Citadel, since it wasn't the Citadel. The ME2 Citadel looked Citadel-y to me. The other places looked like what they should have looked like, too.


...and...

You see a difference, I don't. ME2 has a different look because you're going to different places.


I'm not actually talking visually, since I actually feel visually that ME1 and ME2 are largely consistent, despite their differences. ME2 definitely still looks "Mass Effecty" to me, if you follow me. The designs of Omega and Illium were both very Blade Runner-esque and cuberpunk in their own ways. I always loved the look of the mechs... very 70's/80's style there, etc.

But I'm going on... my point was more the way it was presented and felt. It seemed more bombastic and over-the-top, less mature, and more trying to be edgy and adult in a very silly, not very mature way. To simplify it down, ME1 felt like it was directed by Ridley Scott, while ME2 felt more like a Michael Bay movie. Not entirely, but just here and there. A lot more dudebro and "Rule of Cool" stuff, a lot more silliness, IMO. ME3 just seems to be continuing this trend a little too much from what I can tell, with Ashley oversexified like Miranda, pointless profanity that seems more there to be edgy than add anything, explosions and Shepard being tossed all over the place repeatedly, dudebro-seeming characters like James Vega, the way they go on about the omni-blade, etc.

That pretty much sums it up. To me ME1 felt like it was made for me: a fan who grew up with classic sci-fi from that period and loves RPGs and sci-fi in general. ME2 feels aimed at Gears of War addicted teenagers and just happens to be sci-fi. More accurately, it feels like with ME2 and ME3 BioWare are trying to go for both audiences, but are simply more focused on adding things for the latter than the former.

I guess I don't have any disagreement with this, but I do have a question. Where did ME2 offer too much freedom?


For some examples, I don't feel it restricted players enough when it came to things like every class being able to suddenly hack/decrypt terminals and computers, etc. with the same ability, and that since Charm/Indimidate was no longer skill-based that players didn't need to work on creating a charismatic character either. Essentially I feel that in ME2 Shepard was too easily made a master of all trades: he could be any class or build and it didn't effect his ability to use tech skills or persuade somebody, so he could also be a master fighter as well. I don't feel a good RPG should allow you to too easily be all of these things by removing the need to actually build these non-combat aspects by plattering and automating them so much. A character should need to be built to be charismatic and to use tech skills should logically be suited to that, IMO.

I feel the research/upgrade system allowed you to too easily upgrade everything to the max with no restrictions, no real choices and no trade-offs or downsides. In ME1 you had limited mod slots for your weapons and armour and had to choose your biotic amps and omni-tools. ME2 was basically the equivalent of allowing the player to put every mod in every item and have the power of every biotic amp and omni-tool strapped together. IMO, a player should have to pick and choose their equipment and how it's upgraded or improved wisely, rather than without a thought just click a button that automatically makes their gear the ultimate best every single playthrough without them having to pay any real attention or be restricted to "this or that" here and there.

#341
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Terror_K wrote...

Finally, Mass Effect was said to be an attempt at a homage to classic sci-fi of the 70's and 80's, etc. but as time has gone on it's taken a distinctly more modern Hollywood action movie approach to things.


Sometimes I think this is what bothers me the most.

#342
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ReconTeam wrote...

StephanieBengal wrote...

Confused-Shepard wrote...

Bioware sold out to the MAN! I liked them when they were underground! Too mainstream now!


You're a ****ing idiot, since when is life about not making money and trying to come up? You must enjoy being broke. You must enjoy not being known to everyone. 

Heaven forbid that a company expands it's company and games to more people. 

Seriously, shut the hell up. Unless you work for the company all you're doing is making assumptions to make your sorry existence feel better. 


I think that was sarcasm...

Hard to know. It's partially true even if it was sarcasm.

#343
Arijharn

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I think I see where Terror_K is coming from in regards to the whole 'Action RPG' system in regards to ME2 but I think what they did was more 'streamline' the system as opposed to 'dumbing down.' In ME1 for example you had something like 15-20 pips for Assault rifle which unlocks progressively more powerful 'power-ups' whereas ME2 just had four slot dumps etc to unlock. To me; the difference was superior in terms of a more immediate impact in gameplay (unless you're someone who can actually tell the difference between an increased accuracy or firepower of .1% each stack etc) for ME2 because the reward was more 'in your face.'

The problem with ME1 was that it looked like a shooter but didn't perform like a shooter, and I think it was irritating to point my crosshair's over something and still not hit because of some random (hidden) chaotic element that ruled that the shot lay outside my percentage to hit, and thus, completely out of my control.

I will grant though that ME2 didn't have enough choice though (I missed carnage terribly for example, because that was unique, it wasn't something like: 'For 30 seconds you generate no heat' which was badly designed in my opinion because it was an effect that could be duplicated by gear etc) or worse it had some strange design decisions like you could only unlock medium armour if you put enough points into pistols (for a loose example).

The only thing I really missed from ME1 for ME2 was weapon customization like Ramjets etc, etc, but it seems like that is being put back into ME3, although ammo mods are still class mods for some baffling (and completely arbitrary) reason imo.

Modifié par Arijharn, 25 janvier 2012 - 10:19 .


#344
Exia001

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Basically we've got Terror throwing out the same arguments the ME1 crowd throe out, seriously its in the past, they aint remaking it so buy me 3 or dont, simple

#345
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Exia001 wrote...

Basically we've got Terror throwing out the same arguments the ME1 crowd throe out, seriously its in the past, they aint remaking it so buy me 3 or dont, simple

Please don't lump Terror and "ME1 crowd" in together.

#346
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jreezy wrote...

Exia001 wrote...

Basically we've got Terror throwing out the same arguments the ME1 crowd throe out, seriously its in the past, they aint remaking it so buy me 3 or dont, simple

Please don't lump Terror and "ME1 crowd" in together.



I agree, Terrors posts have been way more thoughtful than Exia gives him\\her credit for.

#347
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Fandango9641 wrote...

jreezy wrote...

Exia001 wrote...

Basically we've got Terror throwing out the same arguments the ME1 crowd throe out, seriously its in the past, they aint remaking it so buy me 3 or dont, simple

Please don't lump Terror and "ME1 crowd" in together.



I agree, Terrors posts have been way more thoughtful than Exia gives himher credit for.

They have. He actually has valid concerns for the franchise outside of "ME2 sux becuz iz not RPG enuf"

#348
Rudy Lis

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Little fence of text below.

Arijharn  wrote...
 
I think I see where Terror_K is coming from in regards to the whole 'Action RPG' system in regards to ME2 but I think what they did was more 'streamline' the system as opposed to 'dumbing down.' In ME1 for example you had something like 15-20 pips for Assault rifle which unlocks progressively more powerful 'power-ups' whereas ME2 just had four slot dumps etc to unlock. To me; the difference was superior in terms of a more immediate impact in gameplay (unless you're someone who can actually tell the difference between an increased accuracy or firepower of .1% each stack etc) for ME2 because the reward was more 'in your face.'

 
Yes, differences were more graphical and obvious, but were they better? Let’s think (or look like we thinkingImage IPB) – we have 29 y.o. Lieutenant-Commander, who have just couple of “ticks” in skills and at the same time he is N7 uber-kommando, wielding some pea-shooter with accuracy range in “minutes of screen”? If that is Alliance top-secret supplies, than Alliance is done for, I call shotgun on first life boat from it, move to another end of galaxy and I want my “outdated” “place_your_service_firearm_here” (AK/M16/M14/Mosin) back!Image IPB Maybe they are “greatly inferior” to “space age” weapons, but at least their outdated bullets flies where you aiming, not just “some way over there”.
I understand it’s just game and they follow standard gaming procedure – we starting from space rats and space daggers (only if ranged, not melee) and ending with space dragons and space great swords of total overkill:)., but c’mon, how ‘bout common sense? IMHO if our Shepard had about 20-30% of total available skillpoints ready to distribution at very beginning and some decent gear, grade III or IV that would be much more realistic. Partially ME2 corrected that IF you imported 50-60lvl Shepard, but that’s slightly not the same.
Plus, what I totally dislike in sequels, especially with some serious changes in game mechanics, it’s how our PC “forgets” everything. Gothic, Witcher, ME – all suffer from this “simplification”. If memory serves, only Alpha protocol had “premade” template for character, “Veteran” or something.
 
 

Arijharn  wrote...
The problem with ME1 was that it looked like a shooter but didn't perform like a shooter, and I think it was irritating to point my crosshair's over something and still not hit because of some random (hidden) chaotic element that ruled that the shot lay outside my percentage to hit, and thus, completely out of my control.

 
Strange. My experience with ME1 decent guns (accuracy rating 30 and higher) and proper Shepard’s skills tells me otherwise. More than that – all misses I scored are my and only my fault, not weapon's. First shot went exactly where it was aimed (if target was small enough to fit into “crosshairs” (circlehairs, to be more correctImage IPB)). With high-end weapons, from Master or Rosenkov range, weapon POI was practically equal to POA. That is one of reasons of my dislike to ME2 weapons, with “inherently” inaccurate guns like Avenger or Revenant with their accuracy somewhere within “minutes of broad side of barn”, if you lucky. Add reduced projectiles velocities, and in pure result all I got was huge amount of misses, even under Adrenalin Rush effect, even in short range. Not pointblank, but somewhere around 10-20 metres. For my first ME2 playthrough I had that “WTF Jokerface”Image IPB during most of combats and accepted new weapon model with not pinch, but heap of salt. Still hate it. Probably one of few things in ME2 I really hate. Not some pet peeves, but major psychotic hatred. Image IPB
 
 

Arijharn  wrote...
I will grant though that ME2 didn't have enough choice though (I missed carnage terribly for example, because that was unique, it wasn't something like: 'For 30 seconds you generate no heat' which was badly designed in my opinion because it was an effect that could be duplicated by gear etc) or worse it had some strange design decisions like you could only unlock medium armour if you put enough points into pistols (for a loose example).

 
If memory serves, weapon progress opened weapons only. Armor opens armor. But I understand what you mean, at least I hope so. ;) IMHO ME1 had typical RPG “skill-tree”, when ME2 had “skill-log (or trunk)”, with 1-2 branches.
Referring to “no overheat” skills – they were neutralized only by high-end mods and only until some enemy will use overheating skill on you. So, as counters to enemy abilities they were good. Regardless, I trained those skills for accuracy increase mostly, not for skillls. However, ME2 removed most of those abilities entirely. Image IPB
I can’t say that one system is inferior or superior to another – they just too different. One and only thing I do not understand completely – is “Speech” skill, no matter how it is named. If Shepard is really some great leader, whose fire made others follow him into hell, than why all that “charm/intimidate” skills fuss?
 
 

Arijharn  wrote...
The only thing I really missed from ME1 for ME2 was weapon customization like Ramjets etc, etc, but it seems like that is being put back into ME3, although ammo mods are still class mods for some baffling (and completely arbitrary) reason imo.

 
Agree completely. Lab-mods were too… artificial (or alien (not to poke other space species)). Minor lab-mods like 5-10% could be Ok, like custom gunsmithing, but 50% is too much. Better create proper weapon from start or use grade system from ME1.
Plus, what I really hate and consider total failure – is thermal clip system. Starting with inconsistencies like “they are universal, but you have separate amount of them for different weapon” and ending with everspawning clips in many hard fights. Final slap – those “10% ammo increase” pouches. They were bugged and 10% were given rounded down. 1 extra round for Carnifex – just to put final bullet into your own temple. Image IPB

Modifié par Rudy Lis, 25 janvier 2012 - 01:03 .


#349
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Rudy Lis wrote...

Arijharn  wrote...
The problem with ME1 was that it looked like a shooter but didn't perform like a shooter, and I think it was irritating to point my crosshair's over something and still not hit because of some random (hidden) chaotic element that ruled that the shot lay outside my percentage to hit, and thus, completely out of my control.

 
Strange. My experience with ME1 decent guns (accuracy rating 30 and higher) and proper Shepard’s skills tells me otherwise. More than that – all misses I scored are my and only my fault, not weapon's.

What Mass Effect game did you play?

#350
Rudy Lis

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jreezy wrote...

What Mass Effect game did you play?


I thought I said that. And I'm pretty sure your read that. 
Of course now we can argue how much I'm exaggerating and start narrowing conditions of experiments...Image IPB