166 réponses à ce sujet

[ckriley]

Sorry to post this here, but since I purchased a digital copy of the game through Xbox Live Marketplace, I have been informed that there is no way to register my game on this site, which means I can't post in the appropriate forums because that's for registered game owners only, and I'd really like to discuss it.

I contacted EA three times and Xbox customer service twice.  Finally, an Xbox rep told me straight up there's no way to register your games on the official site because they do not provide UPC codes for digital purchases.  And the confirmation number they sent is invalid on here.  So, I did everything I could to try and resolve it.  Very frustrating process.

So, with all that being said, if you don't want to read any spoilers, stop reading now.  Again, I apologize but I'd like to discuss aspects of the game and how they might be improved for a possible DA3, but I'm unable to because I purchased a digital copy and can't register it on here.  This forum is pretty much it.



Spoilers after this point.




Okay, let me first start by saying I played through the game twice.  Once as a mage supporting the Circle, and once as a warrior supporting the templars.  And I have to say, this is the first BioWare game I have ever played where your choices are utterly meaningless.  Regardless of who you choose to support in Act 3, you will fight the exact same people and the exact same end boss.

But even in light of that, it is difficult to support the mages.  Not only is Hawke's mother killed by an insane mage, but Anders turns out to be a mass murderer.   On top of that, First Enchanter Orsino turns into some giant Abomination to kill everyone.  So, even if you were supporting the mages, you have to put him down.  Not to mention Merril messing around with blood magic which leads to a horrific ending.  In my warrior playthrough, I actually ended up slaughtering her entire clan after the other dalish elves confront my party as they are leaving the cave.  I tried to have Merril's back and they all attacked us for it.

Supporting the templars seemed like the right thing to do despite Meredith's harsh ways.  I know the argument used by the Circle saying that it is because of Meredith that they are resorting to such tactics, but in the end, all this does is prove Meredith right.

But then when all is said and done, you have to kill Meredith anyway.  Kind of poor writing and I'm hoping DA3 gets back to its origins (pun intended.)

[Atakuma]

Unfortunately the fight with Orsino was only there because someone wanted another boss battle.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Keep in mind, however, that we don't arrest or kill all gun owners for the crimes of one gun owner (though we do occasionally place restrictions on gun rights), nor do we exterminate one social group because, say, some of them are criminals. The mages aren't blameless of blood magic, but supporting the Templars essentially means you support punishment by loose association and collective punishment without due process. The Circle had nothing to do with Anders' stupidity and Orsino, in fact, condemns it.

[Vit246]

First, this should be in the DA2 Campaign board.

Its only difficult to support mages because Bioware intentionally designed it that way in the most skewed way possible. They even admitted that some time ago.

Anders killing the Grand Cleric and every other Chantry member along with Templars is a whole other issue that I don't feel like getting into again, but he's not a mass murderer. And neither did he kill any "innocents". Orsino turned into harvester whatever because Bioware itself said it wanted another boss fight whether it made sense or not. Merrill using blood magic has nothing to do with the fact that its entirely Marethari's fault for turning the clan against Merrill using lies and releasing the demon and the clan's fault for being stupid. Bear in mind that all of the mages that try to kill you are apostates, not representative of the Circle.

Prove Meredith right? Ever heard of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy? She pushed the Circle into a situation where the only way to live is to fight by using any means necessary.

In any case, all of this is still due to just poor bad writing.

Modifié par Vit246, 24 janvier 2012 - 10:35 .

[ckriley]

Orsino does indeed condemn Anders, but then he turn to blood magic at the end and everyone, even his own mages, have to kill him. I'm not saying Meredith was right. And in fact her Knight-Captain, Cullen, turns against her. But if a blood mage killed my mother in the most heinous, Buffalo Bill-type way, I'd probably join the templars too.

[ckriley]

Vit246 wrote...

First, this should be in the DA2 Campaign board.

Its only difficult to support mages because Bioware intentionally designed it that way in the most skewed way possible. They even admitted that some time ago.

Anders killing the Grand Cleric and every other Chantry member along with Templars is a whole other issue that I don't feel like getting into again, but he's not a mass murderer. And neither did he kill any "innocents". Orsino turned into harvester whatever because Bioware itself said it wanted another boss fight whether it made sense or not. Merrill using blood magic has nothing to do with the fact that its entirely Marethari's fault for turning the clan against Merrill using lies and releasing the demon and the clan's fault for being stupid. Bear in mind that all of the mages that try to kill you are apostates, not representative of the Circle.

Prove Meredith right? Ever heard of Self-Fulfilling Prophecy? She pushed the Circle into a situation where the only way to live is to fight by using any means necessary.

In any case, all of this is still due to just poor bad writing.

I can't post in the campaign forums.  Sorry. I totally would if I could.

Anyway, I was unaware that BW admitted to skewing the story like that.  It definitely clears things up.  Even the part of just wanting another boss fight clears things up a bit.  I mean, it's sad that they just wanted another boss fight" but at least it explains why you have to face both faction leaders.

And my point about Merrill is that even though her Keeper was the one that effectively launched a smear campaign against her, she only did so to try and save her.  As the Keeper said, a price had to be paid and she (the Keeper) was the one to pay it.

In Merrill's follow-up Questioning Beliefs quest, she admits that it was her actions and her's alone that led to the devastation.  Again, this happens after Hawke's mother is killed by an insane blood mage.  It all adds up pretty quick.

[CrimsonZephyr]

ckriley wrote...

Orsino does indeed condemn Anders, but then he turn to blood magic at the end and everyone, even his own mages, have to kill him. I'm not saying Meredith was right. And in fact her Knight-Captain, Cullen, turns against her. But if a blood mage killed my mother in the most heinous, Buffalo Bill-type way, I'd probably join the templars too.

Keep in mind that, as has been previously stated, his battle actually has no justification in-story, therefore the logic behind him turning to blood magic is weak at best. However, justifying an execution order by pointing out separate crimes post-facto is weak logic. Ergo, it's not simply "the mages shouldn't have used blood magic," the Templars should have limited their punishment to the guilty in the first place.

And using Leandra's death as an excuse to butcher possibly hundreds of people for a crime they did not commit ironically, undermines the "greater good" argument of the pro-Templar argument, because you place one life - albeit the life of a loved one - above the lives of a faceless minority about to be faced with certain-death for something they did not do. It puts personal emotions above a just solution.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 24 janvier 2012 - 10:48 .

[OdanUrr]

I have played the game several times already and at no time have I sided with the templars. Not once. The choice for me was simplicity itself: do you hold a group responsible for the actions of one man? I didn't. Anders made a personal choice and was not part of a larger conspiracy as far as we know. Annulling the Circle is several steps too far and borderline crazy when there are plenty of other options, more reasonable options, available.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: DA2 tried too hard to portray mages as psychotic serial killers and templars (in less proportion) as blind zealots. I could not, for the life of me, take it seriously. Meredith's reasoning (if there was any) was utterly flawed. Orsino's reasoning (for his transformation) if you side with him is downright stupid. If I'd had a choice, I would've sided with the Qunari.

[sylvanaerie]

Spoilers Below (though I suppose it's a moot point if someone has been reading the thread despite the warnings up-thread)

I've played over a dozen times and sided with templars exactly twice. Once, I did it to see the Anders confrontation in the gallows, and to witness Sebastian's fit/exit. And once to see what happens with Circle Bethany. I suppose I could have combined the two but I was curious for the first time on a mage, and it was Templar Carver, not Bethany who was the surviving sibling. (I also picked up Viscount achievement).

The Anders confrontation was a big let down. Having seen it once, I just go ahead and kill him now before taking off to go stop Merrydeath and her zealots from killing a bunch of innocent people for something Anders did.

The Orsino fight makes so much more sense on a Templar run, at least when he's backed into a corner, it seems more understandable he just gives up and goes for one blaze of glory in an effort to take as many of them with him as he can. Also Circle Bethany gets a lot more dialogue at that moment as she reacts to the news that Orsino was Quentin's 'study buddy'.

Althought "so much more" is relative when you consider it's completely moronic on a mage supportive run.

From a storyline point of view, I just can't justify siding with Templars, even if the scenes with Cullen and Bethany are so much better on a Templar run. I only did it to play out the ending differently, get an achievement and to see new scenes/dialogues.

Frankly most of my Hawke's would rather just sneak into the Hanged Man, and get drunk while the city burned.

Also, CK sorry to hear about your registration issues.  I hope it can be straightened out eventually for you. 

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 25 janvier 2012 - 01:20 .

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

OdanUrr wrote...
I've said it before and I'll say it again: DA2 tried too hard to portray mages as psychotic serial killers and templars (in less proportion) as blind zealots. I could not, for the life of me, take it seriously. Meredith's reasoning (if there was any) was utterly flawed. Orsino's reasoning (for his transformation) if you side with him is downright stupid. If I'd had a choice, I would've sided with the Qunari.

True dat.

Qunari have the right idea regarding mages (at least in the context of the way mages are portrayed in DA2). After all, would you let a mage wander around with no supervision, just waiting for some demon to come howling out of the Warp and possess him/her? Next thing you know everyone on the planet's screaming about "skulls for the skull throne" and you've gotta call in an Exterminatus.

...sorry, forgot what universe DA2 was set in for a second.

[Deadmac]

***SPOILER BELOW***

ckriley wrote...
Okay, let me first start by saying I played through the game twice. Once as a mage supporting the Circle, and once as a warrior supporting the templars. And I have to say, this is the first BioWare game I have ever played where your choices are utterly meaningless. Regardless of who you choose to support in Act 3, you will fight the exact same people and the exact same end boss.

After playing through the game three times, (Mage, Rouge, & Warrior), I discovered why the choices are meaningless. BioWare made it so that both Mages and Templars are hypocrites. Even though you are playing out things instinctively, BioWare turned all the endgame resolutions into a losing scenario. Regardless about how you try to control fate, the final act of the game turns Hawke into an idiot. Technically, people spent $20-$60 on a roleplaying game, which prevents the player from bringing the game to a desired resolution. Its a no win situation.

Hawke is not a Champion.

Hawke was being played and used by both sides.

sylvanaerie wrote...
Frankly most of my Hawke's would rather just sneak into the Hanged Man, and get drunk while the city burned.

Once I discovered the hypocrisy in the game's endings, I felt exactly the same way as you did. When the bad guys are always one step ahead of you, creating a no win situation, the only option on the table is the let the world burn. Even though it takes the fun out of playing "Dragon Age II", why bother playing a game where you cannot actually win?

Modifié par Deadmac, 25 janvier 2012 - 02:15 .

[ckriley]

I think that's mainly the problem. That Hawke isn't really a champion, he/she is a chess piece being used by more powerful characters, which is a bit of a departure from other BW games. But it's interesting reading some of the responses here. Siding with the templars seems to be the minority choice here.

But here's the thing. The zealots that are shown on the templar side are only targeting specific mages or mages in general, whereas the mage response to persecution is summoning demons from the Fade and wiping multiple people out. And yes, even though Anders was acting alone, he did so on behalf of mages everywhere. To make sure there would be no peace between the factions.

Anders may have been acting on his own convictions, but as Orsino put it, he singlehandedly doomed them all.

[OdanUrr]

ckriley wrote...

But here's the thing. The zealots that are shown on the templar side are only targeting specific mages or mages in general, whereas the mage response to persecution is summoning demons from the Fade and wiping multiple people out. And yes, even though Anders was acting alone, he did so on behalf of mages everywhere. To make sure there would be no peace between the factions.

Anders may have been acting on his own convictions, but as Orsino put it, he singlehandedly doomed them all.

Zealots, both mages and templars, target anyone and everyone who stands in their way. Sure, templars will mostly target mages and mages will mostly target templars, but that doesn't mean they're restricted to either group. Neither group has had any qualms about attacking Hawke and company. I can agree that, for the most part, templars were painted with more shades of grey than the mages, the vast majority of the latter being downright insane.

As for Anders, he thought he did it on behalf of mages everywhere. That's quite the claim to make, speaking/acting on behalf of thousands or millions of people. Nobody chose him to represent the mages, he only thinks he's acting for all mages. Let's take a look at Meredith. She also claims she's acting on behalf of the templars, the greater good, call it what you will. She's willing to annul an entire circle for the actions of a single man. Does that mean that all templars are evil? Of course not, you cannot extrapolate and judge an entire group based on a single subject, because any conclusions you draw will be utterly wrong.

And it wasn't Anders' deed that doomed mages. If Meredith had not handled the situation so badly, it would've probably been another entry in the long-standing conflict between mages and templars. Meredith overreacts, and you end up annulling the templars or the mages. My Hawke massacred practically the whole of Kirkwall, but that's just me. It's not as if the events in DA2 were the first time in history mages (templars) successfully killed templars (mages).

Modifié par OdanUrr, 26 janvier 2012 - 12:22 .

[Ghidorah14]

Totally agree with the OP. I usually do support mages in my playthroughs, but oppressing them feels more...right.

Mages in this game are nucking futs about 90% of the time, and aside from a few templars, theres no reason NOT to support them. I think the issue here is that they didnt show how cruel the templars apparently were outside of random mages just occasionally crying about it in the gallows courtyard.

I hope I'm not the only one who honestly didnt want to kill Meredith. Despite her cruel ways, in the end, it was completely justified IMO.

Anders and Orsino have the be the biggest idiots in the whole game. They basically proved Meredith right. I'm not saying they shouldnt be able to defend themselves, but after they did what they did (no spoilers blarg), I felt pretty stupid.

[Fast Jimmy]

Of the many things I did not agree with in the plot of DA2, the Templar/Mage conflict as it was handled in Act 3 is the top of my list. Instead of bringing together the narrative in a way that was cohesive and interesting, they blew it all up in our face and shattered the illusion of choice.

If instead of the ending the way it was, if Meredith and Orsino had come to blows and one killed the other, then you had to fight the "evil" version survivor (Harvester Orsino or Idol Meredith) depending on who you sided against (Orsino would survive if you sided with Templars, Meredith if you sided with Mages) then I would have found this tolerable.

Instead, I feel like I sided with no one and that my entire adventure was completely for nothing, regardless.

If Hawke wasn't there, Anders would still have blown up the Chantry. Most of the mages would have been killed and many Templars would have died. The only possible difference may have been that Meredith survived if Hawke wasn't there.

[kyles3]

My problem with the ending sequence is that Crazy Meredith calls for the Rite of Annulment before Hawke has to pick a side. At that point it's not even a choice for most people--even if you're pro-templar, unless you're a bloodthirsty zealot you have to defend the mages from her. To side with Meredith at that point is to voluntarily assist in mass execution without warrant, and that's not what the templars (who are sworn to protect mages) are about.

[Spicen]

Ghidorah14 wrote...

Totally agree with the OP. I usually do support mages in my playthroughs, but oppressing them feels more...right.

Mages in this game are nucking futs about 90% of the time, and aside from a few templars, theres no reason NOT to support them. I think the issue here is that they didnt show how cruel the templars apparently were outside of random mages just occasionally crying about it in the gallows courtyard.

I hope I'm not the only one who honestly didnt want to kill Meredith. Despite her cruel ways, in the end, it was completely justified IMO.

Anders and Orsino have the be the biggest idiots in the whole game. They basically proved Meredith right. I'm not saying they shouldnt be able to defend themselves, but after they did what they did (no spoilers blarg), I felt pretty stupid.

yaah, as if killing innocents is justified.
By the way wat sort of human r u?

[Spicen]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

OdanUrr wrote...
I've said it before and I'll say it again: DA2 tried too hard to portray mages as psychotic serial killers and templars (in less proportion) as blind zealots. I could not, for the life of me, take it seriously. Meredith's reasoning (if there was any) was utterly flawed. Orsino's reasoning (for his transformation) if you side with him is downright stupid. If I'd had a choice, I would've sided with the Qunari.

True dat.

Qunari have the right idea regarding mages (at least in the context of the way mages are portrayed in DA2). After all, would you let a mage wander around with no supervision, just waiting for some demon to come howling out of the Warp and possess him/her? Next thing you know everyone on the planet's screaming about "skulls for the skull throne" and you've gotta call in an Exterminatus.

...sorry, forgot what universe DA2 was set in for a second.

And maniacs with swords killing mages/being a sadist like alrik is veeeeeeeery good

[Spicen]

Excuse me but let me fly in to evaluate:
Templars:(bad)- Alrik, that guy who came after the starkhaven mages, Petrice,etc,etc, meredith
Mages:-Bad- Quentin, tarohne, (NOT ANDERS)

[Spicen]

ckriley wrote...

Sorry to post this here, but since I purchased a digital copy of the game through Xbox Live Marketplace, I have been informed that there is no way to register my game on this site, which means I can't post in the appropriate forums because that's for registered game owners only, and I'd really like to discuss it.

I contacted EA three times and Xbox customer service twice.  Finally, an Xbox rep told me straight up there's no way to register your games on the official site because they do not provide UPC codes for digital purchases.  And the confirmation number they sent is invalid on here.  So, I did everything I could to try and resolve it.  Very frustrating process.

So, with all that being said, if you don't want to read any spoilers, stop reading now.  Again, I apologize but I'd like to discuss aspects of the game and how they might be improved for a possible DA3, but I'm unable to because I purchased a digital copy and can't register it on here.  This forum is pretty much it.



Spoilers after this point.




Okay, let me first start by saying I played through the game twice.  Once as a mage supporting the Circle, and once as a warrior supporting the templars.  And I have to say, this is the first BioWare game I have ever played where your choices are utterly meaningless.  Regardless of who you choose to support in Act 3, you will fight the exact same people and the exact same end boss.

But even in light of that, it is difficult to support the mages.  Not only is Hawke's mother killed by an insane mage, but Anders turns out to be a mass murderer.   On top of that, First Enchanter Orsino turns into some giant Abomination to kill everyone.  So, even if you were supporting the mages, you have to put him down.  Not to mention Merril messing around with blood magic which leads to a horrific ending.  In my warrior playthrough, I actually ended up slaughtering her entire clan after the other dalish elves confront my party as they are leaving the cave.  I tried to have Merril's back and they all attacked us for it.

Supporting the templars seemed like the right thing to do despite Meredith's harsh ways.  I know the argument used by the Circle saying that it is because of Meredith that they are resorting to such tactics, but in the end, all this does is prove Meredith right.

But then when all is said and done, you have to kill Meredith anyway.  Kind of poor writing and I'm hoping DA3 gets back to its origins (pun intended.)

Dude everybody hates Templars. Just look at Age of empires 2, DA:2, ASSASSIN's creed. So they are kinda sons of bi*****

[Spicen]

Ghidorah14 wrote...



Anders and Orsino have the be the biggest idiots in the whole game. They basically proved Meredith right. I'm not saying they shouldnt be able to defend themselves, but after they did what they did (no spoilers blarg), I felt pretty stupid.

and WHAT THE F*** DID THE MAGES DO?

[randomcheeses]

Honestly it's hard to fully support either side in this game. Which is kind of the point. I still sort of wish there had been a third option where Hawke could say to Meredith and Orsino "Screw this! I'm not helping either of you maniacs. I'm going home to Ferelden. Bye!"

[Klidi]

ckriley wrote...
But even in light of that, it is difficult to support the mages.  Not only is Hawke's mother killed by an insane mage, but Anders turns out to be a mass murderer.   On top of that, First Enchanter Orsino turns into some giant Abomination to kill everyone.  So, even if you were supporting the mages, you have to put him down.  Not to mention Merril messing around with blood magic which leads to a horrific ending.  In my warrior playthrough, I actually ended up slaughtering her entire clan after the other dalish elves confront my party as they are leaving the cave.  I tried to have Merril's back and they all attacked us for it.

Just because the murderer of Hawke's mother is a mage, doesn't mean all mages are lunatics. Hawke's father wasn't, for example. Or Bethany. Or Hawke, if he/she is a mage - even a blood  mage. So it wasn't difficult to support mages at all.
Most of the mages, including Orsino, turn into abomination when they're overwhelmed with strong negative emotions - when they fear for their life, when they feel there's no hope for them. The stronger the opression from Templars, the more negative emotions it causes - there are more abominations and as a result, the Templars are harsher...
I was always sorry I couldn't ask Zev to assassinate Meredith and Orsino - more reasonable leaders would be maybe able to cut that circle of hate and despair and avoid things getting that far.
But even when I supported mages, I never supported Merill - including the case when my Hawke was a bloodmage himself. It's not the bloodmagic that bothers me, it's her stubborness and stupidity. She acts as if she knew everything the best, while it's clear she has no clue about what is she doing. So the ending where she slaughters everyone never happened to me.
Same with Anders - he's stubborn and totally blind to everything except his case. I supported mages underground, but I was never able to romance the whiny hypocrite. And that you can't stop him from blowing the Chantry is one of the things I hate about the game..

ckriley wrote...
Supporting the templars seemed like the right thing to do despite Meredith's harsh ways.  I know the argument used by the Circle saying that it is because of Meredith that they are resorting to such tactics, but in the end, all this does is prove Meredith right.

Or it proved that her methods had completely reverse effect than what she wanted. Even without Anders, mages would stand up against it. It was inevitable.
Oppression, denying of basic human rights, and threat of lobotomy (tranquility) for every disobediance - that couldn't work in the long term. So for me, it was much more difficult to support Templars.

But I agree, that the battles were exactly the same no matter who I supported was a huge disappointment.