166 réponses à ce sujet

[Rockworm503]

Atakuma wrote...

Unfortunately the fight with Orsino was only there because someone wanted another boss battle.

Sad but true.
I wish game designers would focus on the game around the story and not the story around the game.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

To OP, why would you want to support ANYONE? Everyone is insane. Beside, DA 2 is suppose to be personal and a story about rising to power where the world should revolve around you.

Hmm.....Wait. It isn't about rise to power but about Mage-templar conflict where the world completely ignore you? I guess I purchase the wrong game then.

[OdanUrr]

Xilizhra wrote...

I disagree. The very premise of the Templar Order is built on rotten foundations, I believe.

What is the premise of the Templar Order? Historically, they hunted down threats to the civilian population, such as abominations, blood mages, cultists, anything and anyone that constituted a specific danger to another group of people. They didn't hunt down every mage, only those that abused their power and preyed on those who couldn't defend themselves. Who knows, maybe they even fought side by side with other mages in these quests. But when mages use their talents for evil, how can the non-magical population hope to defend themselves? Thus we have the historical birth of the templars (paladins). In a way, it's not unlike what every PC in a RPG ends up doing: cleansing the land of evil in all its forms.

It is only later that the Chantry persuades the Templar Order to join under a single banner, and thus we have the military branch of a religious organisation whose purpose is also now changed: from hunter to guardian, their purpose will be to watch over mages, who are herded into Circles.

Now, there's a difference. Their purpose was to protect the land from all supernatural threats (that includes mages who abused their powers), and the way they end up going about this is by herding mages into Circles (and everything relating to how a Circle operates). The first one has to do with their purpose and the second one with their methods. The templars weren't created to guard mages in Circles, but rather that's what they end up doing to fulfill their original mission. Is this solution flawed? Oh, yes, terribly flawed indeed, but that's another story.

Modifié par OdanUrr, 28 janvier 2012 - 11:48 .

[Rifneno]

This game has really just stomped what little faith I had in humanity away.  It's incredible how many people have morals that they don't understand the reasoning of.  Because when you change a fairly meaningless factor of the equasion, all of a sudden things like racism are a-okay.  Hell, not even racism, supporting the templars is actually fascist more than racist.  Authoritarianism bordering on totalitarianism?  Check.  Politicial or religious indoctrinating propaganda?  Check.  Ethnic "cleansing"?  Checkity check check!

Oh but the mages are such a great danger!  ...  Oh sorry, I can't get on board that ship.  I understand cause and effect, you see.  Let's see what the situation they're in here...  Raised in a world where they're demonized to the point of children often being killed or abandoned because they turned out to be mages.  Then either on the run their entire lives or put in a totalitarian prison with "guards" that often abuse, rape, or outright torture them if they don't just decide to steal their soul becaused on rumor and speculation.  Oh, and we can't forget, that prison is so rife with demonic haunting that it'd send the Ghostbusters running.  Demons that can, for the most part, only bother those mages.  And do so love to drive them mad.
And then many of them do bad things?!  What a shocker!  I would've expected a peoples that the Chantry has so intensely abused psychologically and physically for a millennium would be all warm and cuddly!

Anders' only problem was that he didn't have an ICBM for Val Royeaux.

[Xilizhra]

What is the premise of the Templar Order? Historically, they hunted down threats to the civilian population, such as abominations, blood mages, cultists, anything and anyone that constituted a specific danger to another group of people. They didn't hunt down every mage, only those that abused their power and preyed on those who couldn't defend themselves. Who knows, maybe they even fought side by side with other mages in these quests. But when mages use their talents for evil, how can the non-magical population hope to defend themselves? Thus we have the historical birth of the templars (paladins). In a way, it's not unlike what every PC in a RPG ends up doing: cleansing the land of evil in all its forms.

It is only later that the Chantry persuades the Templar Order to join under a single banner, and thus we have the military branch of a religious organisation whose purpose is also now changed: from hunter to guardian, their purpose will be to watch over mages, who are herded into Circles.

Actually, it was originally the Inquisition, which was even worse and tended to be simply murderous. The Chantry had to rein it in to turn it into the Templar Order when it created the Circle system, and that evidently hasn't helped much.

Anders' only problem was that he didn't have an ICBM for Val Royeaux.

Well, they do have ten thousand powerless elves crammed into it. Wasting all of them would be unfortunate.
Also, yay, you're back!

[TEWR]

Hard? No. The game makes it a point to make it damn near impossible to support the mages, and if you do still support the mages the game gets pissed off at you and makes things that make no sense happen.

@Rifneno, if Anders had bombed Val Royeaux he would've taken out some of the few higher-up Chantry authorities that actually are on the side of the mages.

How you can say that he should've bombed Val Royeaux when you're pro-mage is.... somewhat mindboggling.

[Camenae]

I don't think we should confuse the two issues of: SHOULD the mages be kept in check? And WHO should be keeping the mages in check?

Arguing "Mages should run as free as the wind because the ones controlling them--the Chantry folks--are terrible!!" doesn't make sense. That's like saying ALL children should go without supervision if I found out a few kids have abusive parents.

[Thiefy]

It's not really that hard to support the mages. Meredith wants to kill ALL mages; if you are doing a mage PT that means you, if you are a melee class and bethany is in the circle, that means her as well, your only surviving family.

despite all the cases made against mages, at the very least you know your PC or sister don't deserve to be slaughtered. there are at least a FEW good mages and all of them shouldn't be killed because of a handful of idiots.

[Camenae]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

despite all the cases made against mages, at the very least you know your PC or sister don't deserve to be slaughtered. there are at least a FEW good mages and all of them shouldn't be killed because of a handful of idiots.

I agree.  Therefore I also take issue with those--not saying you do--who say that it's no problem that all the people in the cathedral got killed because "they are not civilians" or whatever...even assuming for argument's sake that there are fewer good chantry folks than there are good mages, which I don't think can really be proven and is besides the point.

[lobi]

Just choose a side and stay away from the other alignments sidequests. Sacrifice xp and settle for minimum level in the endgame. Enemys have same crappy weapons and lame skills Hawk does at a level (mostly). Game will still be nonsense but confuse you less. Also will be a decent challenge for tactical play.

Modifié par lobi, 28 janvier 2012 - 03:31 .

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, they do have ten thousand powerless elves crammed into it. Wasting all of them would be unfortunate.
Also, yay, you're back!

True.    I suppose I didn't mean the entire city should go up, but that Chantry definitely needs to.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

@Rifneno, if Anders had bombed Val Royeaux he would've taken out some of the few higher-up Chantry authorities that actually are on the side of the mages.

How you can say that he should've bombed Val Royeaux when you're pro-mage is.... somewhat mindboggling.

And it's mindboggling that you think pro-mage and pro-Chantry aren't contradictory.  It's pretty mutually exclusive.

Besides, I'm in favor of demolishing the entire organization.  Either their entire belief structure is based on a lie, or they worship a god that is by leaps and bounds the most evil being in Dragon Age.  The only time the Maker does anything, it's to punish everyone for the crimes of a few.  The incomprehensible horror of the darkspawn is because their supreme evil of a god decided that all sentient races should suffer for who knows how many hundreds or thousands of years because of a handful of tyrants that he made and he let climb to power to abuse the populace.  And it says right there in their own doctrine that he has the power to cleanse the taint from the world, but he won't do it.  Yeah, there's a god that deserves to be worshipped alright.  Want to know more about the Maker?  Google "Cthulhu."

Camenae wrote...

I don't think we should confuse the two issues of: SHOULD the mages be kept in check? And WHO should be keeping the mages in check?

Arguing "Mages should run as free as the wind because the ones controlling them--the Chantry folks--are terrible!!" doesn't make sense. That's like saying ALL children should go without supervision if I found out a few kids have abusive parents.

Wow.  I'd have figured the Strawman Store was out of the "Chantry sucks, so mages should be allowed to do whatever they want" model.  I guess they started producing them in bulk.  Good for them.

Modifié par Rifneno, 28 janvier 2012 - 03:29 .

[Camenae]

@Rifneno,

All I was trying to say is that I don't like how the mages were being treated, and I also don't necessarily agree that the Chantry should be 100% demolished because a few, a lot, or even most people dislike it. To me those two issues are certainly related, but the relationship is not of the mutually-exclusive type.

If that was alread obvious to you, then I apologize, because I haven't read this forum very extensively. Really not trying to straw man anything and sorry if I came across that way.

By the way I like your honey badger avatar.

[Xilizhra]

Besides, I'm in favor of demolishing the entire organization. Either their entire belief structure is based on a lie, or they worship a god that is by leaps and bounds the most evil being in Dragon Age. The only time the Maker does anything, it's to punish everyone for the crimes of a few. The incomprehensible horror of the darkspawn is because their supreme evil of a god decided that all sentient races should suffer for who knows how many hundreds or thousands of years because of a handful of tyrants that he made and he let climb to power to abuse the populace. And it says right there in their own doctrine that he has the power to cleanse the taint from the world, but he won't do it. Yeah, there's a god that deserves to be worshipped alright. Want to know more about the Maker? Google "Cthulhu."

True, but killing a religion is exceedingly difficult and I don't think the entire Chantry can be destroyed. The Templar Order, yes, and the Chantry's power can be ripped away, but obliterating the whole thing seems unlikely and would lose too many allies. The mages are in a weak PR position as it is.

[dragonflight288]

The most effective way of battling the Chantry, in my humble opinion, is pointing out its founding historically. It was just one of many Andrastian cults after he execution. Then an Orlesian Emperor just picked one he agreed with, started snuffing out all the others, and expanding the Orlesian Empire and bringing the Chantry with him.

The Chantry spread far and wide because of Orlesian invasion. That's why in places where Orlais has lost influence, the Chantry in Val Royeuax still has a lot of sway about how things are done and taught. It's very beginning has a history of violence.

And the Chantry is very prejudiced against mages. In Orlais, the Divine was going to call an exalted march on her own cathedral because the mages locked themselves in the balcony and were peacefully protesting.

[esper]

Xilizhra wrote...

Besides, I'm in favor of demolishing the entire organization. Either their entire belief structure is based on a lie, or they worship a god that is by leaps and bounds the most evil being in Dragon Age. The only time the Maker does anything, it's to punish everyone for the crimes of a few. The incomprehensible horror of the darkspawn is because their supreme evil of a god decided that all sentient races should suffer for who knows how many hundreds or thousands of years because of a handful of tyrants that he made and he let climb to power to abuse the populace. And it says right there in their own doctrine that he has the power to cleanse the taint from the world, but he won't do it. Yeah, there's a god that deserves to be worshipped alright. Want to know more about the Maker? Google "Cthulhu."

True, but killing a religion is exceedingly difficult and I don't think the entire Chantry can be destroyed. The Templar Order, yes, and the Chantry's power can be ripped away, but obliterating the whole thing seems unlikely and would lose too many allies. The mages are in a weak PR position as it is.

It don't know about demolished completely simply because I am not willing to kill everyone who believe in the Maker. However, it do think that the chantry should be stripped of all political and military influence. As much I want mage freedom I don't want it at the expense that the chantry regain military influence over the mages and the templars that are currently running wild. But I fear that bioware forces us to play a 'cool' seeker in the next game    

[dragonflight288]

That or have a Seeker who is romanceable be in the party.

[sylvanaerie]

Although I must say I am enjoying reading the different opinions being expressed on the thread, reading all these posts, I have to ask, am I the only one who sided with the templars simply from a gaming point of view? To see things I hadn't before, get the achievement, do something different? It's a game, and matters of 'right and wrong' are so grey on both sides.

Not every templar is a collossal religious psycho (Thrask, Keran, Carver--if made a templar--and Cullen who is much more reasonable than his origin self) and not every mage is a freaked out abomination trying to kill everything that moves (Terrie, some of the mages with Thrask, Solivitus, Mage Hawke, Merrill and Alain--despite their use of blood magic--which they use as a tool, nothing more). We see examples of good and bad people on both sides. Of course we don't see a lot of good mages because they seem to be the primary antagonists in the game, but I'm willing to give the majority of mages in the circle the benefit of the doubt. If they were all blood mages, there would be a lot less death among those in the courtyard when the templars break down the doors, and a lot more dead templars.

I wish we had more options that actually impact the story and change the outcome. Ultimately regardless of what you do, who you support/choose to help the ending is the same (even becoming Viscount only alters some of the ending, it always ends the same way).

At least in Origins you got to choose what your Warden would do at the end, who would be ruling, what boon you chose (if any) of the King/Queen.  It always ended with the Blight being stopped and the archdemon dead but the path you chose to that ending differed and the choices of your Warden's destiny was altered even as late in the game as post coronation.

So I go for anything that changes how the story plays out just to be different. Choosing the same path every single time would be boring as hell after the first couple of playthroughs.

Spoiler below for Origins:

The only things I've never been able to do (even just to see, I can't even UTube them) is kill Alistair at the Landsmeet and despoil Andraste's ashes.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 28 janvier 2012 - 05:59 .

[Rifneno]

Camenae wrote...

@Rifneno,

All I was trying to say is that I don't like how the mages were being treated, and I also don't necessarily agree that the Chantry should be 100% demolished because a few, a lot, or even most people dislike it. To me those two issues are certainly related, but the relationship is not of the mutually-exclusive type.

If that was alread obvious to you, then I apologize, because I haven't read this forum very extensively. Really not trying to straw man anything and sorry if I came across that way.

By the way I like your honey badger avatar.

Ahh, my apologies then. I jumped the gun and thought you were one of the many, many templar supporters who interpretted complaints about the Chantry as an endorsement of Tevinter. I haven't been on the forums in months myself, but that was a pretty common defense amongst Chantry defenders when I had stopped reading.

I don't think the Chantry should be demolished because people dislike it, I think it should be demolished because it does far more harm than good. It doesn't preach peace and love, it preaches fear and hate, likely purposely as a tool for political goals. As for their god, if he is real then getting his attention back would be the worst thing humanity (and assorted mythical races) could do. Which isn't to say that I think destroying the Chantry is a feasible goal. It's clearly not. Just what I'd wish for if I found a genie in Thedas.

Xilizhra wrote...

True, but killing a religion is exceedingly difficult and I don't think the entire Chantry can be destroyed. The Templar Order, yes, and the Chantry's power can be ripped away, but obliterating the whole thing seems unlikely and would lose too many allies. The mages are in a weak PR position as it is.

Of course. I worded the original thing poorly in more ways than one. I only meant that'd be the optimal outcome in my opinion.

sylvanaerie wrote...

Although I must say I am enjoying reading the different opinions being expressed on the thread, reading all these posts, I have to ask, am I the only one who sided with the templars simply from a gaming point of view? To see things I hadn't before, get the achievement, do something different? It's a game, and matters of 'right and wrong' are so grey on both sides.

I did it one time only for the "seeing things I hadn't seen before" angle. It honestly made me sick to my stomach. When you have to stop your allies, armed soldiers, from butchering helpless people who did nothing wrong as they're on their knees begging for their lives... And of course, Meredith the Impaler trying to execute Bethany, that was another "fun" one. And just think! That's the censored version of the Right of Annulment! You don't have to see soldiers murdering terrified children in their beds. Remind me where the "gray" is there. I don't see any gray. 

[Klidi]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Although I must say I am enjoying reading the different opinions being expressed on the thread, reading all these posts, I have to ask, am I the only one who sided with the templars simply from a gaming point of view? To see things I hadn't before, get the achievement, do something different? It's a game, and matters of 'right and wrong' are so grey on both sides.

I did, once. But I had to force myself to do it - for me, it was really easier to support mages. Then again, I am biased - I prefer mages in all games I play. Stll, what wouldn't a gamer do for an achievement... (Yes, I even killed Alistair... I'm a... bad, bad person. Yes! Very bad!)

[Ryzaki]

I tend to support the templars.

It's the best decision for my Hawkes (Most of whom are warriors/rogues). Bethany is either with the Wardens or dead so there's no reason to worry about her death in the annullment and my Hawkes don't know or care about any of the mages in the circle. Especially not enough to uproot their lives and comfort for them.

That added to the chaos in the street and it's quicker and to them better to side with the templars and get it over with.

Getting to off Meredith and Orsino was just a bonus.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 janvier 2012 - 07:12 .

[Patchwork]

I've only managed to support Meredith at the end with one PC. She romanced and helped Anders so it was very much a horrified "what have I done!" guilt reaction to try and restore order by helping the templars. Came to her senses before killing her sister though.

Otherwise it's hard to agree with Meredith when the guilty party is sitting right there and she ignores him in favour of taking the opportunity to annul the circle.

-

Destroying a religion is difficult without an opposing one in play. The only other significant religion in Thedas is the Qun and no mage is going to be better off under that regime.

IMO mages need circles, or at least a place to teach TNG. They even need people like the templars who are willing and able to kill abominations. What they don't need is dogma which lays all the evils of the world at their feet, in other words they don't need the Chantry.

[esper]

I supported the templars once, however, once I had finished that playthrough I felt so sick my stomach that I reloaded the last straw and redid the whole thing, but I have a pro-templar ending if I ever wants to use it. It is one the same page as handing Fenris over to Danerius, just can't do it.

I could easily defile Andrastes ashes though, since it didn't have to mean Leliana's and wynnes dead and I kinda wish I did it in my main playthrough.

[Rifneno]

Ryzaki wrote...

That added to the chaos in the street and it's quicker and to them better to side with the templars and get it over with.

That made less sense than a Pauly Shore movie.

esper wrote...

I supported the templars once, however, once I had finished that playthrough I felt so sick my stomach that I reloaded the last straw and redid the whole thing, but I have a pro-templar ending if I ever wants to use it. It is one the same page as handing Fenris over to Danerius, just can't do it.

I could easily defile Andrastes ashes though, since it didn't have to mean Leliana's and wynnes dead and I kinda wish I did it in my main playthrough.

My only problem handing Fenris over to Danarius is that Danarius gets to live. I'm fine with condemning Fenris. Sounds like fun actually. He murdered the Fog Warriors so he could go back to slavery, I think the least he can do is go through with it.

For Andraste's ashes, I just reminded myself that she was the Dumat OGB. Easy as pie after that.

[esper]

Rifneno wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

That added to the chaos in the street and it's quicker and to them better to side with the templars and get it over with.

That made less sense than a Pauly Shore movie.

esper wrote...

I supported the templars once, however, once I had finished that playthrough I felt so sick my stomach that I reloaded the last straw and redid the whole thing, but I have a pro-templar ending if I ever wants to use it. It is one the same page as handing Fenris over to Danerius, just can't do it.

I could easily defile Andrastes ashes though, since it didn't have to mean Leliana's and wynnes dead and I kinda wish I did it in my main playthrough.

My only problem handing Fenris over to Danarius is that Danarius gets to live. I'm fine with condemning Fenris. Sounds like fun actually. He murdered the Fog Warriors so he could go back to slavery, I think the least he can do is go through with it.

For Andraste's ashes, I just reminded myself that she was the Dumat OGB. Easy as pie after that.

I did try to have a Hawke who would hand him over simply for sleeping with her and then leaving her (Yes, she was that petty) but I couldn't do it, so I sided with the mages without doing his final question belief instead. Problem solved and Danerius dead.

As for the ashes it is ashes, not a real person. I don't see why I should have trouble with it.

[Ryzaki]

Rifneno wrote...

That made less sense than a Pauly Shore movie.

I know right! Those mages and templars fighting in the street weren't actually fighting each other they were hugging and dancing around. And those demons came up for cake. Too bad the cake was a lie.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 28 janvier 2012 - 08:19 .