166 réponses à ce sujet

[sylvanaerie]

Oodles of spoilers in this post:

I didn't redo, I rarely redo. I have turned Fenris over, and Isabela (and redid--I just wanted to see it). I killed the Dalish clan in Origins just to see the werewolf takeover and immediately redid. People argue about the templars slaughtering kids in the Circle should watch what they say if they went along with the werewolves slaughtering elves in the Dalish camp. Or if they allowed Merrill's clan to be slaughtered to a man. You don't think the elves had kids too?

But i get curious about certain things in the games, want to see something different, and yes, there are shades of grey throughout the game, it's not all 'good guys/bad guys' black and white. If I thought it was all 'good guys/bad guys' mentality, I'd side templars all the time, because I see little of templars trying to kill my PC, and a hell of a lot of whacked out mages trying to. Let's not even go into the warden's dirty little secret in the Vimmark. Or the sadist who kills Mama Hawke and a bunch of other ladies to make Frankenmom.

Those two times I kept the templar playthrough as they played out, mostly because if I want an import with that, then I have saves ready without having to replay the game, cause frankly I don't like siding with the templars, one of the achievements I have left is "Sided with templars 5 times" because the playthrough would require me doing a lot of things I find personally incapable. I've played over a dozen times, sided with the mages because personally I do prefer to sympathize with the underdog, but I will also say there are nothing but abominations, two pride demons and a group of blood mages and their controlled templar minions and templars attempting the RoA left in the Gallows after the Orsino fight.
So, a lot of mages get away (if Varric isn't lying at the end), and those left were really what Merrydeath was claiming was in the Circle--blood mages and abominations. I'm going to assume since I saw no children killed and saw no kid-sized abominations running around, that the other mages who escaped got the kids out? Just like if you kill the Dalish clans the kids all ran away?

Of course, why the blood mages and abominations just stand around waiting to be killed by Hawke and company (instead of making good their escape) makes about as much sense as my old D&D games where monsters just wait in their respective rooms to be beaten up...

It's a game, it has limitations to the story. I accept it (regardless of the level of stupid) and try to enjoy it on the merits it does have.

*And I don't defile the ashes because in my head it's equivalent to pissing on someone's grave*  It's not illegal and some people may not care if they do it or not (nor do I care if others want to do it, I certainly wouldn't stop them) but personally--for myself--I'm not gonna do it.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 28 janvier 2012 - 10:41 .

[WhiteKnyght]

Ghidorah14 wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...

That's not entirely true. A twisted person with enough power and money can cause great tragedies as well. It's just that magic isn't as pretty. A rich man can have a thousand people raped and murdered in very grisly ways, and one blood mage can kill ten people and then animate the bodies to do his bidding. And yet the blood mage is worse by chantry standards. That doesn't seem a bit unbalanced to you?

Not really, since the rich man could eventually be found out and arrested. He's rich, yeah, but not untouchable.

He also cant throw fire and ice at you. Or summon demons. Or.....well, I dont want to repeat myself but you know.

Not quite. Plenty of rich men know which palms to grease to stay out of trouble. Look how long Bann Vaughan Kendals got away with being a perverted rapist and a killer of elves before he got a little vigilante justice.

And look at Kelder in DAII. He was a schizophrenic serial killer and he was spared punishment simply because his dad was the law. The only real justice he can get is vigilante.

Not to mention the City Guard who raped the sister of those elven qunari converts. They reported him to the other guards and it got swept under the rug. Right under Aveline's nose. And she's the guard captain.

Demons and Abominations aren't untouchable. Stick them with the sword and they die just like all the things above.

Also let's not forget that abominations are actually curable. But the preferred way for everyone to be rid of them is to just kill them. Like Marethari, she gave herself willingly, so she could have easily been cured like Connor was. And a MageHawke was trained by a Circle Mage and would know how to enter the Fade and follow the connection to find the demon, and has Merril and Anders to help with the ritual. All they would need is the lyrium to do it and there are plenty of smugglers in Kirkwall.

[sylvanaerie]

Marethari says there is no 'miracle cure' even among the Dalish, that a soul once possessed would be picked off by other predators even if you did destroy the possessing demon. Also I imagine the risk of a rescuer being overcome/possessed/killed precludes most people from even trying it unless they are particularly brave/loyal/downright stupid. Killing the possessed is the easiest way to ensure the demon is gone.

Makes me wonder about Connor, since Irving seems pretty sure of himself when he says it's doable. 

But then the game does contradict itself (sometimes in the same game).

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 28 janvier 2012 - 10:52 .

[Ryzaki]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Marethari says there is no 'miracle cure' even among the Dalish, that a soul once possessed would be picked off by other predators even if you did destroy the possessing demon. Also I imagine the risk of a rescuer being overcome/possessed/killed precludes most people from even trying it unless they are particularly brave/loyal/downright stupid. Killing the possessed is the easiest way to ensure the demon is gone.

Makes me wonder about Connor, since Irving seems pretty sure of himself when he says it's doable. 

But then the game does contradict itself (sometimes in the same game).

I always got the impression it was doable but required another mage to go into the fade and kill the demon [either using bloodmagic or alot of lyrium and mages] and that the person would be scarred from that for the rest of their life.

[sylvanaerie]

Ryzaki wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Marethari says there is no 'miracle cure' even among the Dalish, that a soul once possessed would be picked off by other predators even if you did destroy the possessing demon. Also I imagine the risk of a rescuer being overcome/possessed/killed precludes most people from even trying it unless they are particularly brave/loyal/downright stupid. Killing the possessed is the easiest way to ensure the demon is gone.

Makes me wonder about Connor, since Irving seems pretty sure of himself when he says it's doable. 

But then the game does contradict itself (sometimes in the same game).

I always got the impression it was doable but required another mage to go into the fade and kill the demon [either using bloodmagic or alot of lyrium and mages] and that the person would be scarred from that for the rest of their life.

Marethari says the soul will be scarred from the experience and soon fall prey to other predators (like a wounded animal).  She says this is the result after the possessing demon is killed/driven off.  That Connor seems fine in my epilogues precludes her perceptions of this, but then the game not only contradicts itself, but Marethari doesn't give you a choice, going all demony and attacking Hawke and co.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 28 janvier 2012 - 11:05 .

[Ryzaki]

sylvanaerie wrote...
Marethari says the soul will be scarred from the experience and soon fall prey to other predators (like a wounded animal).  She says this is the result after the possessing demon is killed/driven off.  That Connor seems fine in my epilogues precludes her perceptions of this, but then the game not only contradicts itself, but Marethari doesn't give you a choice, going all demony and attacking Hawke and co.

Huh. I'll just chalk it up to elves not knowing as much as they think they do.

[sylvanaerie]

Ryzaki wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...
Marethari says the soul will be scarred from the experience and soon fall prey to other predators (like a wounded animal).  She says this is the result after the possessing demon is killed/driven off.  That Connor seems fine in my epilogues precludes her perceptions of this, but then the game not only contradicts itself, but Marethari doesn't give you a choice, going all demony and attacking Hawke and co.

Huh. I'll just chalk it up to elves not knowing as much as they think they do.

That she's in error is entirely possible too.  Since she hasn't encountered many abominations (and Irving has just by dint of he's been around more mages in his lifetime) I'm more inclined to believe his take on it.  And also since Connor was 'saved' in all but one of my Origin games.

Merrill does say if a Dalish becomes an abomination, the clan is forced to hunt down and kill their Keeper.

Marethari doesn't give you a choice anyway so it's kind of a moot point whether she could have been 'cured' of her possession or not.

That's my biggest issue with the game, no matter what choices you make, the outcomes are always the same. 

[WhiteKnyght]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Marethari says there is no 'miracle cure' even among the Dalish, that a soul once possessed would be picked off by other predators even if you did destroy the possessing demon. Also I imagine the risk of a rescuer being overcome/possessed/killed precludes most people from even trying it unless they are particularly brave/loyal/downright stupid. Killing the possessed is the easiest way to ensure the demon is gone.

Makes me wonder about Connor, since Irving seems pretty sure of himself when he says it's doable. 

But then the game does contradict itself (sometimes in the same game).

To be fair, The Dalish lack knowledge that the Circle has and vice-versa.

The Circle has ways to enter the fade and purge the demons from within abominations, thus curing them. But it requires lyrium and at least two mages(As seen in Asunder when Rhys and Adrian perform the ritual to send Wynne into the Fade to cure Pharamond.)

The Dalish have a simple(only one mage is needed to cast and apparently requires no lyrium) spell that allows multiple people to be sent into the Fade, regardless of whether or not they have magical ability.

If the Dalish Keepers and the Circle Mages shared their knowledge. It could benefit a lot of possession victims.

As for what she said. Wynne also says that after a person is cured they are changed forever. But better to live with a few psychological scars than to be killed out of a flawed sense of mercy.

Connor apparently becomes a respected mage after being cured. And Pharamond's uncrontrollable emotions were a side effect of his tranquility being cured. He suffered no apparent scarring after being purged of his demon.

[masseffectexpert94]

Take into account that mages have been murdered, hunted and made tranquill for the smallest reasons for 1000 years. The chantry also tried to genocide the elves and plan to march on orzammar in the future, mages fight back the only way they know how. Anders is the only one who is willing to fight back without the black arts, the grand cleric tells meredith and orcino to go away everytime there is a fight. Mages need to be heard and will only be free once the chantey lies in ruin once and for all!

Modifié par masseffectexpert94, 29 janvier 2012 - 12:40 .

[Xilizhra]

Or if they allowed Merrill's clan to be slaughtered to a man. You don't think the elves had kids too?

Wait, what? Allowed? Merrill's whole clan turns out to be a bunch of berserker maniacs if you tell them the truth. That has nothing to do with Hawke's character.

Regarding the comparison about children, I think one major difference is that we don't see the entirety of the Gallows, far from it. Just the bits around Templar Hall and one of the interior rooms. Much of the battle is invisible.

[sylvanaerie]

Xilizhra wrote...

Or if they allowed Merrill's clan to be slaughtered to a man. You don't think the elves had kids too?

Wait, what? Allowed? Merrill's whole clan turns out to be a bunch of berserker maniacs if you tell them the truth. That has nothing to do with Hawke's character.

Regarding the comparison about children, I think one major difference is that we don't see the entirety of the Gallows, far from it. Just the bits around Templar Hall and one of the interior rooms. Much of the battle is invisible.

Yes, allowed as in "The player allowed his/her character to slaughter the entire clan" (knowing that there is a way to avoid it).  Remember it's just a game!  Jiminy Crickets, people!

Also, even though it's said there are children in there who will also be killed, I think whatever power that be that censors that kind of thing would be all over Bioware if it showed the senseless slaughter of little kids.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 29 janvier 2012 - 01:02 .

[vlight]

***Spoilers***
Am i the only one who gave away Anders to the templars in the Awakening? He clearly was a suspicious blood mage and i was right. When i met Anders in DA2 i was like "wtf this guy is doing here? And he is with Justice now?". And when he blasted the Chantry i killed him myself. Those lazy templars cannot get the job done properly themselves.

As for siding with templars, it was very easy choice. Kill every mage that turns into abomination or use blood magic. After all, mages caused the blight, Anders blasted Chantry. And, contrary to real life, we know exactly that there is God(Maker) and he was really mad at those mages.

There were some mages that asked for mercy and sweared that they do not use blood magic. I let them go. I always leave mages alone if they do not look like possible threat and the game leaves me that choice. Meredith was very mad. I wonder if i have killed those innocent mages, would Meredith still have attacked me? I was pretty much loyal to her until she wanted to kill innocent in front of my eyes.

I am not for killing innocent mages and i feel very sorry for them, but the reality in the game is that mages can cause very serious problems and we have to deal with them at any cost.

Modifié par vlight, 29 janvier 2012 - 01:52 .

[Nimpe]

vlight wrote...

 And, contrary to real life, we know exactly that there is God(Maker) and he was really mad at those mages.

Well, I don't know. DO we know if the Maker is real? Has there been any undeniable proof? 

[Grimgriz]

Lol wow i always suport mages because they repreasent power & choas damn order thats for sheep

[Grimgriz]

^waiting for slaughter

[Grimgriz]

But i was mad at anders but hes the only healer respect his gangsta

[vlight]

Nimpe wrote...

Well, I don't know. DO we know if the Maker is real? Has there been any undeniable proof? 

Urn of sacred ashes quest
Blight
Black City in the fade
The excistance of magic
...

In short, far more reasons to believe that there is a God in the DA than there are reasons in real life.

Modifié par vlight, 29 janvier 2012 - 01:57 .

[Grimgriz]

i am mad at how rushed da2 felt, u cant have conversation with ur companions might as well call em slaves or hired help. i like dao better cuz of the humanity of the character that comes out be it evil good or just kinda fair

[sylvanaerie]

**Spoilers**

I don't know if there is a Maker or not. We know there were magisters who went into the fade looking for the golden city and found only darkness, thanks to Dumat (according to Corypheus). No "Maker" was mentioned in the encounter with Corypheus, only the Old God who became the first Archdemon.

Frankly, I'm inclined to believe Andraste was a mage herself and that was how she performed some of the 'miracles' she attributed to the Maker. But that's just supposition on my part.

Most of my PC's tend to be agnostics about the whole thing.

[Grimgriz]

lol god is mearly a colective of lifes force or da languege (mana) like a star u cant see but we all feel eternal dreams of delight or terror (sorry iam a lil high)

[Fast Jimmy]

There is no Maker... only Zuul.

[Grimgriz]

well enogh video game philosophy back to the game (hope to see yall in da3 multiplayer) sry spoiler

[TEWR]

vlight wrote...

***Spoilers***
Am i the only one who gave away Anders to the templars in the Awakening? He clearly was a suspicious blood mage and i was right. When i met Anders in DA2 i was like "wtf this guy is doing here? And he is with Justice now?". And when he blasted the Chantry i killed him myself. Those lazy templars cannot get the job done properly themselves.

He was never a blood mage in Awakening. Not unless you made him one when you made him a Warden. He's a Spirit Healer only.

There were some mages that asked for mercy and sweared that they do not use blood magic. I let them go. I always leave mages alone if they do not look like possible threat and the game leaves me that choice. Meredith was very mad. I wonder if i have killed those innocent mages, would Meredith still have attacked me? I was pretty much loyal to her until she wanted to kill innocent in front of my eyes.

Considering she had been under the effects of the lyrium idol ever since she acquired it in Act II -- and is made evident by the fact that she has a lyriumsaber with her at all times, which is all one needs to know that she's insane -- and the fact that those mages you saved will most likely be made Tranquil, I can't see why anyone would side with Meredith.

Add into that the fact that the mages were innocent of Anders' act, and I really don't see a reason why a person would side with Meredith.

I am not for killing innocent mages and i feel very sorry for them, but the reality in the game is that mages can cause very serious problems and we have to deal with them at any cost.

So.... you choose to murder the mages innocent of an apostate's act simply because they're "dangerous mages"? Yea, that makes sense.