166 réponses à ce sujet

[vlight]

Get Magna Carter wrote...

Hawke's father was a mage, Hawke's nice sister is/was a mage, Hawke may be a mage
How can you support persecution of your own family?

Because no one of the family members who were mages are alive.
Because i use "Templar" specialization.
Because the game does not give a choice to flee the city when things get ugly.
Because siding with mages still means that you will kill a lot of people anyway.

Modifié par vlight, 29 janvier 2012 - 01:11 .

[Xilizhra]

Normally, I hate censorship. But I think this one time I'm gonna have to go with the censors. Because if we continually push the bar (as is human nature), there's only one place left to go after that. And I REALLY couldn't stomach Hawke walking in on Kerras raping somebody.

We already saw that in DAO's city elf origin. I mean, didn't see it exactly, but that was definitely the scene.

If we have to see Quinten's crap to show us why mages suck, there's no reason Hawke couldn't have to be around for a victimized mage having a mental breakdown.

One would think that Karl's begging to be killed would qualify, but for many people, it apparently doesn't.

[sylvanaerie]

esper wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Or if they allowed Merrill's clan to be slaughtered to a man. You don't think the elves had kids too?

Wait, what? Allowed? Merrill's whole clan turns out to be a bunch of berserker maniacs if you tell them the truth. That has nothing to do with Hawke's character.

Regarding the comparison about children, I think one major difference is that we don't see the entirety of the Gallows, far from it. Just the bits around Templar Hall and one of the interior rooms. Much of the battle is invisible.

Yes, allowed as in "The player allowed his/her character to slaughter the entire clan" (knowing that there is a way to avoid it).  Remember it's just a game!  Jiminy Crickets, people!

Also, even though it's said there are children in there who will also be killed, I think whatever power that be that censors that kind of thing would be all over Bioware if it showed the senseless slaughter of little kids.

I am just going to bring this up, because it is a point I see in many Merrill discussion that is entirely moot. Neither Hawke nor Merrill can see the dialog wheel or have the meta knowlegde to avoid it. As for us players, yeah we have the power to avoid it, but I know that I killed them on my first blind playthrough simply because I didn't knew the outcome of picking each choice, that is not being allowed to slaughter the clan that is the clan being arrogant and attempting murder. 

Weren't you the one who said that you sided with templars simply from your Hawkes point of view. I don't see killing the clan as a moral choice. Grace asking to killing Trask is a moral choice, Handing Fenris over to Danerius is a moral choice, siding with the Templars or mages is a moral choice also for Hawke, but for the dalish clan is a question about how good Hawke is to defuse a potential violent confrontation.
Two of my Hawke just so happened to bad at exactly such a thing because the first of them is standing very firm on her principles  and as a result honestly say her opinion, the other happens to have a short temper react with anger if anyone insults her, ironiclly if she had known she could have avoided a fight she would have, but she didn't. 

I suppose I should make a point of stating, I am debating from a player perspective (my own) not a character (Hawke's) RP perspective. I'm talking about player choices, not RP.  And I guess that's where the breakdown in communication is happening. 

I support the mages.  I only chose to side templars twice in a dozen games just to see different scenes/get the achievement, and to have 2 imports (one with Carver alive and one with Bethany alive) for DA3.  That is the only reason I did it, and it had nothing to do with Hawke's PoV because I didn't have an RP reason for doing it when I did it.  I just did it from a gamer's (my own) desire to see something different.

Just because I prefer mages doesn't mean I can't see OP's point or even, to some extent, agree with him, because the game does skew the perspectives.  KKK references aside, the point I was making when misquoted by Rifneno was "I don't choose to persecute an entire group of people for someone else's actions".  That the game does go out of it's way to skew the player toward that kind of thing.  I found his post extremely insulting and offensive.

I'm going to bow out of this discussion now because arguing on these boards is pointless and exhaustive.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 29 janvier 2012 - 02:01 .

[philippe willaume]

esper wrote...

Well of course, if you are picking the middle option which is downright rude to the clan, but they already know she are dead, so telling them the truth about why you have to kill her does not seem like a sure way to fight the whole clan.

I disagree with the mage-templar war. Meridith had to die. Outside of her mage paranoia, Meridith is power hungry and always have been. She has been trying to run the city behind the scenes until the end of act 2 where she doesn't even bother to try and hide it anymore. Hawke's status of champion would always be a threat to her and the annulement would always be the perfect opporunity to have Hawke come 'by an accident' even if you side with her. If in the name of fairness, Orisno, would have to die (Not sure I actually mean that, but I am pro-mage so I would be not so objective here) then they could simply have shown a sceene of the templars overwhelming the mages instead of having the player team mob the floor with templars. Then his freak out would at least have made sense.

about your 1st point. yes it is all about role playing.

about the second
you are not going to get any grief from me on the Orsino stunt and don't get me started on Anders.Not to mention the "Hawk darling, Were you even awake during those 3 years.

i was talking about what ACT III could have been.
I play pro-mage (and tried pro templar to see if it was going to change anything) but we can see it is the same for someone who sided fro the templar. i have to say getting "we are all domed, this is our last option" and then go Masey Fergusson just after we spanked the templars silly is a bit lame.
but really if you had sided with the emplar haveing Meredith go duracell bunny after you did Orsino hugly is just the same.
Phil



 

[esper]

sylvanaerie wrote...

esper wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Or if they allowed Merrill's clan to be slaughtered to a man. You don't think the elves had kids too?

Wait, what? Allowed? Merrill's whole clan turns out to be a bunch of berserker maniacs if you tell them the truth. That has nothing to do with Hawke's character.

Regarding the comparison about children, I think one major difference is that we don't see the entirety of the Gallows, far from it. Just the bits around Templar Hall and one of the interior rooms. Much of the battle is invisible.

Yes, allowed as in "The player allowed his/her character to slaughter the entire clan" (knowing that there is a way to avoid it).  Remember it's just a game!  Jiminy Crickets, people!

Also, even though it's said there are children in there who will also be killed, I think whatever power that be that censors that kind of thing would be all over Bioware if it showed the senseless slaughter of little kids.

I am just going to bring this up, because it is a point I see in many Merrill discussion that is entirely moot. Neither Hawke nor Merrill can see the dialog wheel or have the meta knowlegde to avoid it. As for us players, yeah we have the power to avoid it, but I know that I killed them on my first blind playthrough simply because I didn't knew the outcome of picking each choice, that is not being allowed to slaughter the clan that is the clan being arrogant and attempting murder. 

Weren't you the one who said that you sided with templars simply from your Hawkes point of view. I don't see killing the clan as a moral choice. Grace asking to killing Trask is a moral choice, Handing Fenris over to Danerius is a moral choice, siding with the Templars or mages is a moral choice also for Hawke, but for the dalish clan is a question about how good Hawke is to defuse a potential violent confrontation.
Two of my Hawke just so happened to bad at exactly such a thing because the first of them is standing very firm on her principles  and as a result honestly say her opinion, the other happens to have a short temper react with anger if anyone insults her, ironiclly if she had known she could have avoided a fight she would have, but she didn't. 

I suppose I should make a point of stating, I am debating from a player perspective (my own) not a character (Hawke's) RP perspective. I'm talking about player choices, not RP.  And I guess that's where the breakdown in communication is happening. 

I support the mages.  I only chose to side templars twice in a dozen games just to see different scenes/get the achievement, and to have 2 imports (one with Carver alive and one with Bethany alive) for DA3.  That is the only reason I did it, and it had nothing to do with Hawke's PoV because I didn't have an RP reason for doing it when I did it.  I just did it from a gamer's (my own) desire to see something different.

Just because I prefer mages doesn't mean I can't see OP's point or even, to some extent, agree with him, because the game does skew the perspectives.  KKK references aside, the point I was making when misquoted by Rifneno was "I don't choose to persecute an entire group of people for someone else's actions".  That the game does go out of it's way to skew the player toward that kind of thing.  I found his post extremely insulting and offensive.

I'm going to bow out of this discussion now because arguing on these boards is pointless and exhaustive.

I certainly didn't mean to insult you, but it just seemed like a moot point to make when you was the person to ask if no one sided with the templars because of role play and then making a point of dismissing roleplay.

The places I personally have trouble roleplaying in is when it comes to moral points since I have a hard time getting into characthers who are too morally different from me. As such there are thing I can't do and won't be responsible for a character doing. When it comes to the clan, it is not a question of morale though, but of communication and the ability to defuse a situation in which case I can play all roles equally.  

[esper]

philippe willaume wrote...

esper wrote...

Well of course, if you are picking the middle option which is downright rude to the clan, but they already know she are dead, so telling them the truth about why you have to kill her does not seem like a sure way to fight the whole clan.

I disagree with the mage-templar war. Meridith had to die. Outside of her mage paranoia, Meridith is power hungry and always have been. She has been trying to run the city behind the scenes until the end of act 2 where she doesn't even bother to try and hide it anymore. Hawke's status of champion would always be a threat to her and the annulement would always be the perfect opporunity to have Hawke come 'by an accident' even if you side with her. If in the name of fairness, Orisno, would have to die (Not sure I actually mean that, but I am pro-mage so I would be not so objective here) then they could simply have shown a sceene of the templars overwhelming the mages instead of having the player team mob the floor with templars. Then his freak out would at least have made sense.

about your 1st point. yes it is all about role playing.

about the second
you are not going to get any grief from me on the Orsino stunt and don't get me started on Anders.Not to mention the "Hawk darling, Were you even awake during those 3 years.

i was talking about what ACT III could have been.
I play pro-mage (and tried pro templar to see if it was going to change anything) but we can see it is the same for someone who sided fro the templar. i have to say getting "we are all domed, this is our last option" and then go Masey Fergusson just after we spanked the templars silly is a bit lame.
but really if you had sided with the emplar haveing Meredith go duracell bunny after you did Orsino hugly is just the same.
Phil



 

Why do you have so much space at the bottom of your post?
Anyway Meridith was stated seperated of the whole mage issue to be power hungry. Hawke would always be a threath to that, no matter what. For Meridith a pro-templar Hawke is more use dead, because then she can say to the city who has become more pro-mage than proberly any city under the white divine. 'See the mages killed your beloved champion.´ Proganda plus the bonus of her greastet rival being dead. She proberly just should have checked with Cullen first, who actually makes even less sense in a pro-mage path. How could he get into his head that Meridith was only going to arrest pro-mage Hawke, really, really. 

[Rifneno]

Grimgriz wrote...

i know this is for da2 but i need some quick advice concerning dao the water jug /altar in the werewolf woods. i know ur suposed to fill it , put it on altar ,pray sip , dump then door opens i have done that first run as a human. Know that im playin an elf it isnt giving me the take a sip option instead the altar boils the water is it racist to non dalvish elfs? lol any 1 else ever experience this or know how to fix it?

Grimgriz wrote...

gee thanx for the help ..................................not

You have to read the tablet earlier in the dungeon telling you how to do the ritual even if you as the player already know the sequence. Be sure to be pick up the second tablet that tells you how to not spaz out if no one answers in 10 minutes at 7 AM on a Sunday.

Xilizhra wrote...

We already saw that in DAO's city elf origin. I mean, didn't see it exactly, but that was definitely the scene.

Yeah, that's about as close as we'll get. Or should get. Though it was very underplayed. A lot of people didn't even realize she was raped.

One would think that Karl's begging to be killed would qualify, but for many people, it apparently doesn't.

It still blows my mind that people thought "there should be a way to stop Anders from murdering that poor tranquil fellow." Anyway, the only example I can think of that might be recognized around here... Any of the BG2 fans still around remember the Imoen romance mod? The scenes where she recalls what happened during the kidnapping? THAT kind of mental breakdown. 

[philippe willaume]

esper wrote...
Why do you have so much space at the bottom of your post?
Anyway Meridith was stated seperated of the whole mage issue to be power hungry. Hawke would always be a threath to that, no matter what. For Meridith a pro-templar Hawke is more use dead, because then she can say to the city who has become more pro-mage than proberly any city under the white divine. 'See the mages killed your beloved champion.´ Proganda plus the bonus of her greastet rival being dead. She proberly just should have checked with Cullen first, who actually makes even less sense in a pro-mage path. How could he get into his head that Meridith was only going to arrest pro-mage Hawke, really, really.

Hello
Yes and no, roughly until the end of act II, she is really no more than a zealot.
I would argue that at act III she is under the influence of the idol. At the beginning of act III you can still side with the templar

But regardless, to be fair it is hard to be pro-templar with that type of stunt
.
So yes it is quite hard to rationalise standing with the templar

Modifié par philippe willaume, 29 janvier 2012 - 03:52 .

[Grimgriz]

Yah i remembered that but ty for advice i cant wait till the multiplayer in da3 i hope to the maker (lol) they bring back arcane warriors in da3 omg there amazing sorta like darth vader meets sauron if u were creepy black armor like me, there simular to tivintars i think. i wish BIOWARE (pay atention programers) would make a tevintar campain with the ending bein the massive blood sacrafice fueled travel to heaven and the followin descent to hell id pay to play that. man i love the story line ofthis game it makes lotro seem so lame in retrospect.

[Gyrefalcon]

Grimgriz wrote...

Yah i remembered that but ty for advice i cant wait till the multiplayer in da3 i hope to the maker (lol) they bring back arcane warriors in da3 omg there amazing sorta like darth vader meets sauron if u were creepy black armor like me, there simular to tivintars i think. i wish BIOWARE (pay atention programers) would make a tevintar campain with the ending bein the massive blood sacrafice fueled travel to heaven and the followin descent to hell id pay to play that. man i love the story line ofthis game it makes lotro seem so lame in retrospect.

Yeah, but it's been done and done in other games.  And I haven't heard of a "hell" in this one.  There is the Void in the elven myths.  I would not mind a much later "Return to the Black City" to try to restore it.  But they have such good storylines without repeating their own work, I will just look forward to the next one.

However, if you are fond of the idea, you will probably like the Legacy DLC!

[Demonhoopa]

ckriley wrote...

Sorry to post this here, but since I purchased a digital copy of the game through Xbox Live Marketplace, I have been informed that there is no way to register my game on this site, which means I can't post in the appropriate forums because that's for registered game owners only, and I'd really like to discuss it.

I contacted EA three times and Xbox customer service twice.  Finally, an Xbox rep told me straight up there's no way to register your games on the official site because they do not provide UPC codes for digital purchases.  And the confirmation number they sent is invalid on here.  So, I did everything I could to try and resolve it.  Very frustrating process.

So, with all that being said, if you don't want to read any spoilers, stop reading now.  Again, I apologize but I'd like to discuss aspects of the game and how they might be improved for a possible DA3, but I'm unable to because I purchased a digital copy and can't register it on here.  This forum is pretty much it.



Spoilers after this point.




Okay, let me first start by saying I played through the game twice.  Once as a mage supporting the Circle, and once as a warrior supporting the templars.  And I have to say, this is the first BioWare game I have ever played where your choices are utterly meaningless.  Regardless of who you choose to support in Act 3, you will fight the exact same people and the exact same end boss.

But even in light of that, it is difficult to support the mages.  Not only is Hawke's mother killed by an insane mage, but Anders turns out to be a mass murderer.   On top of that, First Enchanter Orsino turns into some giant Abomination to kill everyone.  So, even if you were supporting the mages, you have to put him down.  Not to mention Merril messing around with blood magic which leads to a horrific ending.  In my warrior playthrough, I actually ended up slaughtering her entire clan after the other dalish elves confront my party as they are leaving the cave.  I tried to have Merril's back and they all attacked us for it.

Supporting the templars seemed like the right thing to do despite Meredith's harsh ways.  I know the argument used by the Circle saying that it is because of Meredith that they are resorting to such tactics, but in the end, all this does is prove Meredith right.

But then when all is said and done, you have to kill Meredith anyway.  Kind of poor writing and I'm hoping DA3 gets back to its origins (pun intended.)

Your choices do not impact the end game. However, the choices you make throughout the game have impact on the JOURNEY. I'm on my 15th playthrough and there have been so many of combinations of things that you get little differences through out the game. Just this very morning I had something happen that I had NEVER seen before......on my 15th playthrough. This game is more about personal relationships and drama than "epic events".

I have a feeling this is a "bridge" story, like ME2, which is why there is only one ending. With the chaos in the aftermath of this game, I expect them to go back to "epicness" in the next part. If it's a trilogy, you''ll probably have big time END game consequences.

Yes it's all speculation but I suspect that's what is happening.

Modifié par Demonhoopa, 30 janvier 2012 - 07:41 .

[Rifneno]

Demonhoopa wrote...

Your choices do not impact the end game. However, the choices you make throughout the game have impact on the JOURNEY. I'm on my 15th playthrough and there have been so many of combinations of things that you get little differences through out the game. Just this very morning I had something happen that I had NEVER seen before......on my 15th playthrough. This game is more about personal relationships and drama than "epic events".

I have a feeling this is a "bridge" story, like ME2, which is why there is only one ending. With the chaos in the aftermath of this game, I expect them to go back to "epicness" in the next part. If it's a trilogy, you''ll probably have big time END game consequences.

Yes it's all speculation but I suspect that's what is happening.

No, this is definitely an "epic events" story. It's just a really bad one.  Look at the last...  quest, I guess you'd call it?
I don't see the ME2 comparison. ME2 had lots of choices you can make. While it's true that many of them are also personal character choices, those mean much more in ME for 2 reasons. First, ME is based around a recurring main character while DA is not. Personal choices for Shepard will mean something in ME3 because we're still playing Shepard. We won't be playing Hawke in DA3, so Hawke's personal choices are meaningless. Second, ME's writers respect the player's canon in character deaths. If you killed someone in ME2, they'll be dead in ME3. If you killed someone in DA2, expect to find them alive and well in a tavern in DA3.
Oh, and DA isn't a trilogy. They haven't said how long they planned it for (at least that I've seen) but I distinctly remember one of the DA team responding to someone saying that they had DA mixed up with ME when they refered to it as a trilogy.

[Demonhoopa]

Rifneno wrote...

Demonhoopa wrote...

Your choices do not impact the end game. However, the choices you make throughout the game have impact on the JOURNEY. I'm on my 15th playthrough and there have been so many of combinations of things that you get little differences through out the game. Just this very morning I had something happen that I had NEVER seen before......on my 15th playthrough. This game is more about personal relationships and drama than "epic events".

I have a feeling this is a "bridge" story, like ME2, which is why there is only one ending. With the chaos in the aftermath of this game, I expect them to go back to "epicness" in the next part. If it's a trilogy, you''ll probably have big time END game consequences.

Yes it's all speculation but I suspect that's what is happening.

No, this is definitely an "epic events" story. It's just a really bad one.  Look at the last...  quest, I guess you'd call it?
I don't see the ME2 comparison. ME2 had lots of choices you can make. While it's true that many of them are also personal character choices, those mean much more in ME for 2 reasons. First, ME is based around a recurring main character while DA is not. Personal choices for Shepard will mean something in ME3 because we're still playing Shepard. We won't be playing Hawke in DA3, so Hawke's personal choices are meaningless. Second, ME's writers respect the player's canon in character deaths. If you killed someone in ME2, they'll be dead in ME3. If you killed someone in DA2, expect to find them alive and well in a tavern in DA3.
Oh, and DA isn't a trilogy. They haven't said how long they planned it for (at least that I've seen) but I distinctly remember one of the DA team responding to someone saying that they had DA mixed up with ME when they refered to it as a trilogy.

 

Trilogy or not, DA2 is a "setup" for the events of DA3 and is not "epic".  DA2 is about saving ONE CITY as opposed to "saving the world" in Origins. DA3 will be events on a more worldwide or epic scale.

I get that there are flaws and don't disagree with all you're saying. However that does not prevent me from understanding what the game is and enjoying the strengths. The flaws are not deal breakers for me. Probably in part because I wasn't totally in love with Origins and find it to be vastly overrated. Consequently the changes don't offend me and some of the changes are welcome.

I tolerated the story flaws and the lack of impact of my decisions on the end game even if I'm not thrilled about it. I totally get where those thing would be a deal breaker for you and others (most people it seems. LOL).

What is game breaking or a deal breaker is a personal decision. I understand where you're coming from and totally get it, respect it, understand it and agree with alot of it. 

For example,  Mark Meer is a deal breaker in Mass Effect for me PERSONALLY (Shepard fans, save your breath I said "my opinion", not fact, I know you love him, I get it). I find him to be so god awful, I can't play the game. Some others, like my son, understand where I'm coming from (like I understand you) but it's not a deal breaker so they can enjoy the game. I can respect that.

Modifié par Demonhoopa, 31 janvier 2012 - 05:33 .

[Elvis_Mazur]

Well, after beating the game once recently, I came to the conclusion that everyone, except Hawke and his family and Varric, is crazy.

"LET'S BOOOOM THE WHOLE THING AND FORCE MEREDITH GIVE HERSELF TO COMPLETE CRAZINESS LOLOLOLOL!!!"

[Darkrider296]

I support Mages at the end of the day. Mages are mostly pushed into the arms of demons. Yes Mages NEED early education. So that there can never be any Connor mishaps. But to lock them away from society is just as foolish. Do you know how many people a healer mage could save. Anders was saving loads of people everyday and he was just one man. Society needs to be cautious but not fearful of Mages. Oppressing an entire group is never justified in my books. Its also best that blood magic is avoided (I hate justifications for it). Just talking with demons screws up your mind. Just be blunt with mage children. Do you want to live respectable lives with dignity or do you want to lose your self and everything you love to demons. If mages lived free tests and inspections could be performed on a monthly basis to make sure their avoiding blood magic and demons. Similar to the test Anders does in in Enemies among Us. Plus people forgot that Mages could help in regulating other mages in a racially combined secular police force. There are so many possibilities beyond the status quo, its just people are too fearful to see otherwise.

[Chiramu]

 Hawke and the Warden are also mass murderers. Count the number of actual humans, elves and dwarves your opponents are. 

Death is meaningless in Dragon Age because our characters kill way more people than anything in the story.

[Plaguemaster]

I'm ok with blood mages...and killing the chantry....and Orsino. Hell, I don't care for them - I'm a Blood Mage!
Tevinter Rules Supreme!