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[SaturnRing]

Ottemis wrote...

SaturnRing wrote...

Ottemis wrote...
We are one to readily claim Organic life deserves a chance to prove it can rise above a pattern of spiralling destruction, so when we do after tons of failure, StarChild HAS to adapt. This is all founded on the principle of this/us being fluent, and based on the belief that we CAN infact be the exeption that breaks this chain of events.

It was never starchild intention to give the universe a chance to prove that it could brake the cycle. Shepard made it possible by defeating Saren.
Starchild destroyed all the past civilization based on the ASSUMPTION that they wouldn't be able to avoid chaos.

If the catalist is the citadel, and the citadel was 'build by reapers' and the reaper were 'built by starchild' who do you think made this all possible to begin with. They are vague about the origin of the crucible plans.

How far of a stretch is this? No more or less than your assertion I'd say. It all depends on your perspective.

You making the case for me. Starchild underestimates who capable the universe races are: despite unbeatable odds the Protheans were able to start building the crucible; that by the way got completed under reaper massive attack; pretty much under starchild noze. The universe used starchild own tech agaisnt him. Then why not give them a chance and stop assuming that they too dumb to break that cycle 

Modifié par SaturnRing, 19 mars 2012 - 04:42 .

[adneate]

Ottemis wrote...
If the catalist is the citadel, and the citadel was 'build by reapers' and the reaper were 'built by starchild' who do you think made this all possible to begin with. They are vague about the origin of the crucible plans.

Doesn't that assertion rip a giant hole in the space time continuum of the entire franchise going all the way back to the very first game? If the citadel is in fact where the Reaper leader's AI is then why wasn't the entire franchise over as soon as Sovereign is hooked up to the Citadel tower? That's it he hooked up to the mothership, it's all over right there. The Citadel isn't a mass relay it's the Reaper God. Or are we expected to believe that the keepers not being able to be controlled remotely by Sovereign also means the eternal omnipotent AI of the Citadel can't access it's vital functions. Since in 3 it seems like it does when it makes an FTL jump to Earth once it learns that Shepard got the prothean VI.

The entire Starchild sequence is just a pile of vague garbage that nukes the entire canon of the franchise in 5 minutes. As soon as it starts nothing makes any sense anymore and every single theme the franchise built for 5 years is just dropped and traded from some BS Cylon garbage that comes out of left field and relies simply on the word of a character we meet at the last minute who has all the answers but won't tell them to us because.

[Ottemis]

@SaturnRing: I'm not making a case for you, you're not reading it right.
What I said was, it's not inconceivable to think StarChild offered us with the opportunity to create the crucible from the beginning.
Ofc we still made it happen in the end, but that we had that option could very well be StarChild's doing and intention. Nothing suggests that he is not willing to re-assess based on new variables. That's the whole premiss the ending is based off.

@adneate: If they didn't touch the subject of the reaper's creator, that would have been a giant plothole.
Your conclusions in light of it though are all asumptions. Not so much logical conclusions.

Modifié par Ottemis, 19 mars 2012 - 04:18 .

[Sialater]

YAY! I'm back! And I'm all legit and registered and stuff.

Meghan says, hi.

[TheMarshal]

I'd rather not get into a discussion of the potential merits or shortcomings of the existing endings in this thread.

Assuming instead that we got the "Mega-Happy Ending" (Copyright Wayne's World), where the Reapers were destroyed or at least no longer a threat, the Mass Relays remained intact, etc. etc., what would your Shep do afterwards? Stick with the Alliance and be promoted to Admiral-Goddess of all militaries? Try her hand in politics? Gun for hire? Baby factory? Wandering minstrel?

Alice would most certainly do everything that she and Liara talked about, flying off to some distant world where it could be just the two of them, leaving the rest of the galaxy behind. That would be find for a few years, until their first daughter was born. Then Alice would want to return to civilization to make sure her daughter (and future daughters) get a decent education. Not anyplace super busy, like the Citadel (if it remained) or any of the homeworlds. Somewhere off the grid. Busy, but not a megalopolis, with a good spread of humans and other races. Preferably someplace with a beach nearby, where she could live off the vid royalties...

[SaturnRing]

Ottemis wrote...

@SaturnRing: I'm not making a case for you, you're not reading it right.
What I said was, it's not inconceivable to think StarChild offered us with the opportunity to create the crucible from the beginning.
Ofc we still made it happen in the end, but that we had that option could very well be StarChild's doing and intention. Nothing suggests that he is not willing to re-assess based on new variables. That's the whole premiss the ending is based off.

Ok. Ma mistake.
It doesn't look like he's ready to re assess considering how fast poeple are dying. But...you're point is valid; i just don't share it. Giving the universe the technology to create the crucible without being given a chance to finish it...well

Modifié par SaturnRing, 19 mars 2012 - 04:30 .

[Ottemis]

@Flies_by_Handles : She doesn't have to be, that's the first choice. There is no right or wrong in that, because we have no evidence to support or deny StarChild is who he claims to be. The first choice is that, and completely unique for each Shep and Player. No rights or wrongs. Just pure opinion.

My argumentation comes from the belief he is telling the truth.
If he isn't then logically everything is up in the air, but that first choice, before the yosti colourpick is the one that decides that.

And I am and am not at peace as I've stated. I'm objectively arguing the endings, having said that: people should stop assuming how I must feel based on things that have nothing to do with the emotional impact the ending had on me.

Maybe I should add, I'm an atheist.

Modifié par Ottemis, 19 mars 2012 - 04:33 .

[sagefic]

edit: delete

nevermind.

i'm in the indoctrination camp and depressed to boot.  don't mind me.

Modifié par sagequeen, 19 mars 2012 - 04:32 .

[adneate]

Ottemis wrote...
@adneate: If they didn't touch the subject of the reaper's creator, that would have been a giant plothole.
Your conclusions in light of it though are all asumptions. Not so much logical conclusions.

Starchild says he created the Reapers and they are his solution, he also has complete control over them and can make them do whatever he wants. It seems logical to me to wonder why in ME1 everything didn't just come to an end as soon as Sovereign hooked up to the Citadel, as they explain it the Protheans just screwed up the remote signal  so he had to make a "hard" connection. He does that after that shouldn't Starchild be like "Sup Sovvy! Time for another cycle? Well let me go get the others." Game Over everyone dies.

It doesn't make sense why Sovereign has to go through all this BS to get the Citadel relay to open when the Citadel is 1) Their God and 2) Capable of jumping to anywhere it wants whenever it wants to. So there's obviously a contradiction of some kind here, either the Protheans sabotaged the Citadel and it doesn't work at all without a Reaper plugging into in which case we missed a giant full scale attack on the Citadel while at TIM's base, and nobody said anything about it to anyone. Or the Citadel has all it's functionality and just screwed around with Sovereign for no real reason. Either one doesn't really make sense.

Modifié par adneate, 19 mars 2012 - 04:33 .

[Ottemis]

I don't know about that one, because it's more logical to me, the Reapers were created to act independently to StarChild, because otherwise Shep's input wouldn't logically be necessary for the control-ending.

So to that extend, the cycle ends when the Reapers complete their purpose and reap what they're heading to reap. OR when the catalyst is triggered, as we've now seen in ME3.

From the idea that StarChild is open to give us 'a shot' at breaking the cycle, having this progression and the invasion running it's course makes sense and is nessecary, I would think.

Modifié par Ottemis, 19 mars 2012 - 04:37 .

[Discrepancy]

Ottemis wrote...

Discrepancy wrote...

Discrepancy wrote...

I've got a question! Could anyone post a link to how I can use the default femshep's textures in Gibbed for Mass Effect 3? I want to take some epic screenshots for a wallpaper!

Anyone? *bambi eyes*

Try this

Aw! Excellent. That did the trick! Is it also possible to extract the textures and edit them in Photoshop? *tech noob* 

[Ottemis]

Discrepancy wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

Discrepancy wrote...

Discrepancy wrote...
I've got a question! Could anyone post a link to how I can use the default femshep's textures in Gibbed for Mass Effect 3? I want to take some epic screenshots for a wallpaper!

Anyone? *bambi eyes*

Try this

Aw! Excellent. That did the trick! Is it also possible to extract the textures and edit them in Photoshop? *tech noob* 

Yes heh, run texmod in logging mode, tab through the textures loaded in with + and -, extract to disc with enter. This is a really simple rundown if you need more poke via pm.

[ELE08]

Flies_by_Handles wrote...

Ottemis wrote...


I don't see him contradicting himself. Assuming he's telling the truth about who he is, you hardly can argue against his points either, because he bases them over thousands/millions of years of observation, while our perception is limited to our own lifespan, limited to THIS cycle for as far as it progressed.

As to him being wrong in therms of the war being inevitable.
Again, his perception on this is much broader then we can possibly conceive, and even though we apparently proved this point to Starchild ages ago, he still recognizes the need for change in light of the situation where we made it thus-far to confront him. He recognizes that his old solution is lacking.

I also think the green option has a poetic beauty to it that everyone seems to be missing? Green makes your SHEP the catalyst. Everything she is, her foundation is used and shared with everyone else to make that new 'DNA'. She is, as a result, in everyone. Everywhere.

In the past, we've seen this strive for perfection alot. That a harmonious joining of synthetics and organics is considered 'perfection'. In the words of StarChild, the last step of evolution.

   I'd rather not view him as a god-like being that knows what's best for organics. That's contrary to the spirit of the series; choosing your own destiny rather than resigning to fate. And why would Shepard suddenly place absolute faith in what this newly introduced being is saying? Why would Shepard be perfectly fine with altering the composition of every organic race without their say in the matter? How on earth is that even accomplished? Must be space magic....

  While you've made peace with the ending and there's nothing wrong with your personal preference, I'm glad that so many fans feel otherwise and are vocal about it. If Bioware chooses to do something about the issue, then we might have the best of both worlds. You get to sacrifice your Shepard on the altar of faith while we get a few more palatable options.

I agree with this completely.

What is my Shepard fighting for? Self-determination, diversity, triumph over impossible odds.  I feel like this has been established fairly well up until this point.

It's also counter to everything the Reapers stand for: forced order, resignation to the inevitable.

I'm not going to throw everything out the window at the last minute because this entire time I 'just didn't get it.'  There's just too many questions to accept it on faith alone.


Oblig disclaimer; but I respect that others can.  This topic is highly subjective, and the endings vague enough that I think you can try and reason just about anything from them.  

All this speculation is also dependent on the writers not being full of crap.  Sometimes, a plot hole is a plot hole is a plot hole, and no amount of rationalizations can overcome poor writing.

Modifié par ELE08, 19 mars 2012 - 04:43 .

[NoxJuked]

About the ending, I feel like Bioware/EA wanted to slap some sort of multiple choice you would have to make when they should have kept the ending simple like MassEffect 1 and have various different endings like Mass Effect 2 based off choices leading up to that beam. I thought for sure you would command the fleets in space or ground troops of you're friends[Jack,Wrex,Grunt/Quarians,Geth,Turians etc] depending on what you choose for them they could all die but do their job[low ems] sustain heavy losses, maybe friend dies[average ems] or mostly survive with low casualties, friend lives[high ems] and you would get to see that play out in some little cinematic.

I would have liked my ending changed maybe around Shepard getting hit by the beam. Have it where him and his crew make it through with Anderson. After that when you go up into the beam the Reapers/Illusive Man should have laid out an indoctrination trap where you, rest of crew, and Anderson start getting mind f--ked. I had already thought when I went up the beam I thought the Reapers were making Shepard look at his/her past[I had a ruthless background] so seeing all the dead bodies around I assumed they were possibly the men/women Shepard sacrificed during Torfan.

Since they kept bringing up lost friends and the kid in dreams they could have made you fight them within you're head or something. Passed this you get to the Illusive Man with Anderson & Company, perhaps one of you're squad mates can become indoctrinated if they weren't loyal in MassEffect 2 or you did something to ****** them off in MassEffect 3 so they weren't focused or strong willed enough to break it and they die or Reapers/Illusive Man uses them to fight against you could even take control of them regardless but one at a time and have them fight against you and you have to damage the Illusive Man enough so that he breaks his hold over them. When you beat him you beat indoctrination squad & Anderson pass out after having a talk, Shepard about to but Hackett tells him cruicible isn't working.

Shepard goes to console goes up comes face to face with Harbringer, they don't fight physically they talk the reason for this is Harbringer had to stay connceted to the Citadel or something to use indoctrination and is also preventing the use of the cruicible. Then you get to make you're choice after he explains the whole thing the god kid does but better explantions etc. Cruicible fires does it's thing against only the Reapers unless you chose synthesis, no wierd Normandy flying away scene instead a epilogue of what happens after etc.

Control ending - [low ems Shepard can't control the Reapers they wipe everyone out, cycle continues] - [average ems Shepard controls them but dies] - [high ems Shepard controls and lives]

Synthesis -  Fusion with synthetics and organics, Shepard dies regardless of ems.

Destroy - [low ems destroys all sysnthetic life, EDI/Geth/Reapers, Shepard dies & mass relays explode] - [average ems Reapers die, EDI/Geth live, Shepard dies maybe mass relays explode or not?] - [High ems reapers die, EDI/Geth live, Shepard lives mass relays don't explode]

Anyways done typing this whole thing out some of it might not even be better than the ending we already have was just throwing idea's around. I'm neautral in terms of the endings some of it I don't like some of it I do, it's so vague that you can just sort of come up with you're own ending epilogue and be happy but yeah rather it be shown. I was mainly upset that Mass Effect is reaching it's end with Shepard I really enjoyed all 3 games I will miss them.

[Ottemis]

Flies_by_Handles wrote...

Ottemis wrote...
My argumentation comes from the belief he is telling the truth.
If he isn't then logically everything is up in the air, but that first choice, before the yosti colourpick is the one that decides that.

And I am and am not at peace as I've stated. I'm objectively arguing the endings, having said that: people should stop assuming how I must feel based on things that have nothing to do with the emotional impact the ending had on me.

Maybe I should add, I'm an atheist.

Okay, and the belief that he is telling the truth is an act of faith, is it not? How can prove what it's telling you, especially when your past actions in the game contradict some of its assertion? Being an atheist does not discount the option of trusting a seemingly omniscient being.

  My apologies for claiming that you were at peace when you actually feel otherwise.

You either do or don't believe he's telling the truth, there is no evidence to support either. Which makes them both as I said, equally valid and completely personal.
My personal choice to believe what he's saying comes from my personal acceptance that some things are beyond what I can conceive/understand. And my hatred towards the arrogance of humanity over the course of it's own history. Our misguided feelings of entitlement. That's how the choice is motivated for me personally. But PURELY in deciding wether or not to trust StarChild.

Me mentioning being an atheist was to emphasize that choice not being build on being open to the concept of  (blind) belief per say.

Modifié par Ottemis, 19 mars 2012 - 04:48 .

[Jayce]

Ottemis wrote...

If you decide to believe StarChild, then it's 'easy'. I personally found no reason to disbelieve.
It comes down to acceptance because you can handly argue against someone stating "it's been this way for millions of years, because it was consistently happening".
Ofc putting this into a 50k year cycle purge will mean that in one cycle the progression towards this 'state of chaos' StarChild referrs to, is going to differ. We can't make a realistic assessment towards this being true or not, because we lack the perspective to judge something of this scope/magnitude. It's, by definition, something that is beyond our comprehension, because it hints towards an endlessness and repetition, and powers in the universe that are not for us to understand.

If there's one thing, and I've said this before, that Mass Effect does very well, it's to emphasize and force us to constantly assess our own insignificance in the large sceme of things. We humans are one of many, and our perception is limited to our own scale of existence.

When were you last chased by T-Rex?

If you accept Starchild's logic based on it's assesment of past cycles then you have to accept the principle that synthetic life will always destroy organic life.

The question not being asked is: So?

Organic life goes extinct near constantly due to enviromental changes and multi-species competition. If you accept that synthetic life is sentient and deserves the same right to exist and compete with organic life. Then you have to accept that if sythentic life outcompetes and renders organic life extinct that's too bad for organics.

What the catalyst is essentially doing is pushing the reset button on Darwinistic evolution for no other purpose than to maintain the status quo. Why this balance needs to be is never addressed.

If you take that and consider that the Reapers are the peak of organic evolution because Starboy makes it so, not because they are. When looked at even more closely, it's an unspoken admitance that the Reapers are an evolutionary dead end trying to stay on top of the food chain, nothing more. 

Your left with the unavoidable conclusion that Control and Synthesis are a repetition of the same mistaken logic of the Catalyst.  Eventually some new organics will evolve and we then become the evolutionary dead end just like the Reapers. 

Modifié par Jayce F, 19 mars 2012 - 04:58 .

[SaturnRing]

More pic of Helen.



Major...

[Demonhoopa]

R.I.P.
Rhynne Shepard







You will be missed.

Modifié par Demonhoopa, 19 mars 2012 - 05:12 .

[SaturnRing]

Jayce F wrote...
What the catalyst is essentially doing is pushing the reset button on Darwinistic evolution for no other purpose than to maintain the status quo. Why this balance needs to be is never addressed.

my guess is that he probably created organics first and his order implies them being on top of the food chain...

[Tup3x]

Ottemis wrote...

Tup3xi wrote...
I still find his logic really weird. "We kill you now because eventually your own synthetics might kill your in the future."

I don't really buy the indoctrination theory. I just think that the last ten minutes or so make no sense at all in any way. No matter how much I try to understand it it still makes no sense at all to me.

If you decide to believe StarChild, then it's 'easy'. I personally found no reason to disbelieve.
It comes down to acceptance because you can handly argue against someone stating "it's been this way for millions of years, because it was consistently happening".
Ofc putting this into a 50k year cycle purge will mean that in one cycle the progression towards this 'state of chaos' StarChild referrs to, is going to differ. We can't make a realistic assessment towards this being true or not, because we lack the perspective to judge something of this scope/magnitude. It's, by definition, something that is beyond our comprehension, because it hints towards an endlessness and repetition, and powers in the universe that are not for us to understand.

If there's one thing, and I've said this before, that Mass Effect does very well, it's to emphasize and force us to constantly assess our own insignificance in the large sceme of things. We humans are one of many, and our perception is limited to our own scale of existence.

Have you though whether or not its logic was flawed from the beginning? I'm not buying it that a machine with broken logic is supposedly right, no matter how many years it has been there observing. It's broken, twisted, evil and flawed machine.

That twisted machine itself is causing endless repetition. There's no way it would know what would actually happen in the future without this mass murdering. What the hell does it know anyway... As far as I know the only thing it has been observing is the countless mass murdering cycles (every time).

Or lets put it this way: Why should I believe a weird machine who has murdered so many people.

In my opinion this whole ending conversation just proves how broken it really is.

Modifié par Tup3xi, 19 mars 2012 - 05:09 .

[SaturnRing]

Demonhoopa wrote...

R.I.P.
Rynne Shepard







You will be missed.

You braking my heart. I've grown really fond of her...

[Tup3x]

Demonhoopa wrote...

R.I.P.
Rynne Shepard

You will be missed.

Sigh.