20761 réponses à ce sujet

[AtlasMickey]

sagequeen wrote...
CATCH!

edit: omg, her boobs look giant in that picture.  didn't notice that before.

They're sort of swinging around. Awkward catch imminent.  lol

edit: topshep

Modifié par AtlasMickey, 04 mai 2012 - 03:50 .

[SaturnRing]

@sage: In a good way i might add...that leaves so much more to work on for fanfic or bios.

Modifié par SaturnRing, 04 mai 2012 - 03:47 .

[Gilsa]

@YourFunnyUncle -- I hear ya on the romances. Games are generally too long to play just for the sake of exploring a romance that one knows very little about. I usually youtubed the romance scenes of a specific character to see how it turned out. I would also go into the romance threads and read why others were squeeing so hard because sometimes people point out things I would have not noticed or considered. Garrus did feel too much like the buddy my Shepard would have a drink with, but not go home with. I found his initial awkwardness charming and endearing in the romance videos and ended up making a brand new character specifically to romance him. Kaidan is my favorite for story reasons because I like how it is a part of all three games: the hooking up, the sense of betrayal felt by both sides, and the long road back to reconciliation. If I ever perceived him as boring in ME1, he knocked my socks off in ME2 and completely surprised me in ME3. I thought he was more assertive with his opinions and made all the big moves (he played it very safe in ME1 because of regs, his cautiousness was starting to drive me crazy heh) in ME3. However I think Garrus wins in the bestest buddy + supportive boyfriend category. I was really charmed with all the little extras (the hand touchs, the one extra line that affirmed his feelings for her, the concern here and there). He's not my canon's boyfriend, but I am so proud of how Bioware developed his character in the series, especially as a latecomer in the romance department. They really did right by him. He is space Batman minus the emotional baggage! =D

Anyway, getting too long to make my point. Romance videos are generally the reason why I give a character a chance. I remember laughing at Anders when I saw how DA2 ended and being grateful I didn't go after him first. I didn't think I ever would romance him, but after listening to enough people squee over why they like him despite the inevitable trainwreck, I had to see for myself and ended up appreciating his character on a whole new level. Jacob went from a boring ass squadmate in ME2 to my favorite ME2 romance. It's too bad there's so much character development that comes in the romance department. Male Shepards will never know these guys on a deeper level. I resent that my relationship with Jack is only on the surface. She doesn't want to open up to my FemShep because she doesn't play with girls. (I had her in my squad full time in ME2 because I just like her style, her comments, her whole bluntness and lack of tact.) Hope that makes sense.

Modifié par Gilsa, 04 mai 2012 - 03:55 .

[KyreneZA]

Ottemis wrote...

Now her father, yes, but Matriarch Aethyta isn't a romance option =)

And she warns you, you can't even rene-quickie (a la Jack) her on the bar counter either.

[sagefic]

@mickey. er, awkward is right.

@saturen. agreed. and thanks.

@ gilsa. so true. i tend to play a game more than once, so i often end up making a character with a romance in mind, which i guess 1) makes the romance make more sense. if i go into it with a character that feels (to me, anyhow) 'just right' for that LI, the romance plays out more naturally. the people seem to fit together. like when ELE played drea with jacob and said, 'eh, she's cheesy sometimes' as a way to explain the early awkward dialog. i could never play that same romance with kyrie because it's just NOT was she would say to initiate it ever. less headcanoning if you set up the romance from the start. also, 2) while you can youtube a lot, it never has the same charm as actually playing the romance. because you rarely get ALL the easter eggs, the extra dialogs, the little moments while on missions, etc. and even just stupid little things like ALWAYS having garrus in your party with a garrus mancer and having matching sniper rifles can go a long ways to making the love feel real.

true love means matching armor and guns, after all. am i right or am i right?

[Ottemis]

Kyrene wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

Now her father, yes, but Matriarch Aethyta isn't a romance option =)

And she warns you, you can't even rene-quickie (a la Jack) her on the bar counter either.

Yes, unamused Shep is unamused. In all seriousness though, I'd have gone for Aethyta, she's hands down my favorite NPC.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Ottemis wrote...

The difficulty in it is that a hetero femshep from our perspective would view Liara as a female, whether or not she's viewed or considered to be a female setting-wise.
In the setting however, Femshep perspective on this is much different from our own having been in contact with the race and the mono-gendered concept in therms of sexual partners.

I think this is a hard one to 'roleplay', purely because Shepards perspective doesn't nessecarily entail shifting sides or going bi, while from our own, that's exactly what it means. Would have made this easier if Asari had no breasts, for instance, but as is their bodies are the same as human females.
WE don't know any better.

Personally I referr to Liara as female knowing that she's theoreticly not. It's hard to get around her physical appearance. Also Liara purely not having 'certain tools', bar the whole mindmelding which is a completely foreign concept anyways, would make her a non-option for some of my hetero femsheps.

Aside from physical attraction to the opposite gender, there's personality, but honestly, Liara is extremely feminine. They didn't make the monogendered concept very easy for us in her case. Now her father, yes, but Matriarch Aethyta isn't a romance option =)

I'm not denying that  Liara certainly looks and sounds very much like a beautiful woman and it's tough to get past that. I can quite see why you might consider the relationship to be lesbian even if strictly speaking it isn't.

You then however get to my second point which was that there would be no need to be "in the closet" in the Mass Effect society as it seems that they've managed to get past the idea that LGBT relationships are anything to be ashamed of.

There are clearly interspecies relationships going on across the galaxy, with both males and females of various species openly having relationships with asari. Iactually suspect that given the short length of time since first contact, elements in human society might actually be more opposed to relationships between humans and aliens than between humans of the same sex. It could be that if there was any "coming out" to be done it would be as someone who was attracted to aliens, although the amount of humans seen staring at Asari dancers makes it hard to believe that even that is the case.

Modifié par YourFunnyUncle, 04 mai 2012 - 04:06 .

[razviolet]

Ack, this thread moves so fast I can't keep up.On the topic of awesome visors, here's a sneak peak at one of the snapshots I'm using for my slide show in progress. I have about 10hours left on Vanessa's game so I might be done with it this weekend or early next week...

[SaturnRing]

YourFunnyUncle wrote...


I'm not denying that  Liara certainly looks and sounds very much like a beautiful woman and it's tough to get past that. I can quite see why you might consider the relationship to be lesbian even if strictly speaking it isn't.

You then however get to my second point which was that there would be no need to be "in the closet" in the Mass Effect society as it seems that they've managed to get past the idea that LGBT relationships are anything to be ashamed of.

There are clearly interspecies relationships going on across the galaxy, with both males and females of various species openly having relationships with asari. Iactually suspect that given the short length of time since first contact, elements in human society might actually be more opposed to relationships between humans and aliens than between humans of the same sex. It could be that if there was any "coming out" to be done it would be as someone who was attracted to aliens, although the amount of humans seen staring at Asari dancers makes it hard to believe that even that is the case.

Are you suggesting that you see humans/aliens lack of relationship more as a trust issue rather than a coming out of the closet issue?

[Ottemis]

YourFunnyUncle wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

The difficulty in it is that a hetero femshep from our perspective would view Liara as a female, whether or not she's viewed or considered to be a female setting-wise.
In the setting however, Femshep perspective on this is much different from our own having been in contact with the race and the mono-gendered concept in therms of sexual partners.

I think this is a hard one to 'roleplay', purely because Shepards perspective doesn't nessecarily entail shifting sides or going bi, while from our own, that's exactly what it means. Would have made this easier if Asari had no breasts, for instance, but as is their bodies are the same as human females.
WE don't know any better.

Personally I referr to Liara as female knowing that she's theoreticly not. It's hard to get around her physical appearance. Also Liara purely not having 'certain tools', bar the whole mindmelding which is a completely foreign concept anyways, would make her a non-option for some of my hetero femsheps.

Aside from physical attraction to the opposite gender, there's personality, but honestly, Liara is extremely feminine. They didn't make the monogendered concept very easy for us in her case. Now her father, yes, but Matriarch Aethyta isn't a romance option =)

I'm not denying that  Liara certainly looks and sounds very much like a beautiful woman and it's tough to get past that. I can quite see why you might consider the relationship to be lesbian even if strictly speaking it isn't.

You then however get to my second point which was that there would be no need to be "in the closet" in the Mass Effect society as it seems that they've managed to get past the idea that LGBT relationships are anything to be ashamed of.

There are clearly interspecies relationships going on across the galaxy, with both males and females of various species openly having relationships with asari. Iactually suspect that given the short length of time since first contact, elements in human society might actually be more opposed to relationships between humans and aliens than between humans of the same sex. It could be that if there was any "coming out" to be done it would be as someone who was attracted to aliens, although the amount of humans seen staring at Asari dancers makes it hard to believe that even that is the case.

Whichever way you turn it, it's viable femshep or manshep for that matter would have a coming out, wether that's from the alien or sexual orientation perspective. Bi and gay romances are quite common now, but the consideration of "coming out" is still a very real thing, seeing flocks of people aren't very open to the concept. That often going hand in hand with religion would also suggest this might still be an issue in the Mass Effect setting, seeing the belief in God is suggested to still be considered viable and practiced through Ashley. This is not to say religion is what's suppressing people being open about their sexual orientation alone, btw. And to be complete here, in large parts of the world today, 'coming out' for being bi or gay is actually still very detrimental to your health and/or mental wellbeing. This says alot about human nature and the level of global acceptance in therms of change and distinction.

In the end we're mirroring that universe to our own, and seeing human nature is as it is and people aren't half as flexible in accepting change or a differing view as this concept would require now.. well. Let's not dive into it even deeper.

At any rate, I don't see 'coming out' as a rediculous concept in that setting, and viable enough in roleplaying therms, but not automatic.

Modifié par Ottemis, 04 mai 2012 - 04:25 .

[YourFunnyUncle]

SaturnRing wrote...

Are you suggesting that you see humans/aliens lack of relationship more as a trust issue rather than a coming out of the closet issue?

Actually I'm saying that there may well be a "coming out" issue with human/alien relationships but that the games do show us instances of such relationships existing quite openly: There's the Human asking after her Asari partner on the citadel, the Quarian complaining about her human ex-boyfriend and of course all the humans who are quite obviously attracted to the Asari dancers in the clubs.

[razviolet]

Gilsa wrote...

Anyway, getting too long to make my point. Romance videos are generally the reason why I give a character a chance. I remember laughing at Anders when I saw how DA2 ended and being grateful I didn't go after him first. I didn't think I ever would romance him, but after listening to enough people squee over why they like him despite the inevitable trainwreck, I had to see for myself and ended up appreciating his character on a whole new level. Jacob went from a boring ass squadmate in ME2 to my favorite ME2 romance. It's too bad there's so much character development that comes in the romance department. Male Shepards will never know these guys on a deeper level. I resent that my relationship with Jack is only on the surface. She doesn't want to open up to my FemShep because she doesn't play with girls. (I had her in my squad full time in ME2 because I just like her style, her comments, her whole bluntness and lack of tact.) Hope that makes sense.

The way romances develop a character is why they are so interesting to me. You really get to see the different sides and views of people when you become so involved with them. I romanced Anders first in DA2 even though he was a psychopath because he was the most interesting and involved character to have a relationship with. You get to watch him struggle with Justice more, or less depending on your attitude during the romance..that and I have a strange aversion to elves even if Fenris did have the same voice actor as the all awesome Balthier from FF.

I hear you about Jack in ME2. She never really interested me much because I never learned anything more about her character other than she was tortured by Cerberus and was rightly pissed off at the world. By the end of ME2 she was on a 'shepard is alright' level which she expressed in her own special way. I think she was developed rather well come ME3 with the subtle but substantial change in mental state, I wound up liking her character a lot.

[Silver]

Ottemis wrote...

Kyrene wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

Now her father, yes, but Matriarch Aethyta isn't a romance option =)

And she warns you, you can't even rene-quickie (a la Jack) her on the bar counter either.

Yes, unamused Shep is unamused. In all seriousness though, I'd have gone for Aethyta, she's hands down my favorite NPC.

I found it kind of funny how Aethyta was basically telling Talia & Darya to not mess around with Liara, and coming across as the dad that waits with a loaded double-barrel on the front porch of the house after 10 in the evening

I just sat there with a wide grin after hearing that, because one: it was hilarious, and two: because she seemed to absolutely mean it.

Modifié par silverhammer08, 04 mai 2012 - 04:33 .

[draken-heart]

Ottemis wrote...

YourFunnyUncle wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

odd question here, but how many fem!Shep players here role-played their fem!Sheps as having been in the closet before the game?

Are you implying here that a femshep relationship with Liara is lesbian? I'm not sure that you really can. It's a sexually viable relationship with a member of a monogendered alien species that happens to look quite human and as such I don't think that it really counts as full-on lesbian. Even if you accept the definition, do you think that the society of Mass Effect is one where gay people feel the need to be "in the closet"? I don't get the impression that it is.

The difficulty in it is that a hetero femshep from our perspective would view Liara as a female, whether or not she's viewed or considered to be a female setting-wise.
In the setting however, Femshep perspective on this is much different from our own having been in contact with the race and the mono-gendered concept in therms of sexual partners.

I think this is a hard one to 'roleplay', purely because Shepards perspective doesn't nessecarily entail shifting sides or going bi, while from our own, that's exactly what it means. Would have made this easier if Asari had no breasts, for instance, but as is their bodies are the same as human females.
WE don't know any better.

Personally I referr to Liara as female knowing that she's theoreticly not. It's hard to get around her physical appearance. Also Liara purely not having 'certain tools', bar the whole mindmelding which is a completely foreign concept anyways, would make her a non-option for some of my hetero femsheps.

Aside from physical attraction to the opposite gender, there's personality, but honestly, Liara is extremely feminine. They didn't make the monogendered concept very easy for us in her case. Now her father, yes, but Matriarch Aethyta isn't a romance option =)

well, what i meant was, like, in the alliance before the game, or like kept it on the down low due to it being new to him/her.

Modifié par draken-heart, 04 mai 2012 - 06:13 .

[razviolet]

YourFunnyUncle wrote...

SaturnRing wrote...

Are you suggesting that you see humans/aliens lack of relationship more as a trust issue rather than a coming out of the closet issue?

Actually I'm saying that there may well be a "coming out" issue with human/alien relationships but that the games do show us instances of such relationships existing quite openly: There's the Human asking after her Asari partner on the citadel, the Quarian complaining about her human ex-boyfriend and of course all the humans who are quite obviously attracted to the Asari dancers in the clubs.

I think the only issues are the relationships between races that are notoriously hateful towards each other such as humans and turians. Or like the fact most people distrust the quarians. It makes me sad bioware never broached the issue or had a character openly hostile or questioning towards a romance if you were with Garrus or Tali. I mean, really, you kiss Garrus right in front of the turian primarch:blink:.

Modifié par razviolet, 04 mai 2012 - 04:37 .

[Ottemis]

YourFunnyUncle wrote...

SaturnRing wrote...

Are you suggesting that you see humans/aliens lack of relationship more as a trust issue rather than a coming out of the closet issue?

Actually I'm saying that there may well be a "coming out" issue with human/alien relationships but that the games do show us instances of such relationships existing quite openly: There's the Human asking after her Asari partner on the citadel, the Quarian complaining about her human ex-boyfriend and of course all the humans who are quite obviously attracted to the Asari dancers in the clubs.

Gotta consider though, the Citadel was found by the Asari, us humans came into an already existing situation there. If we'd have experienced the setting from a human heavy POV, say for instance Earth, the situation would likely be different. Places where such things are automatic and accepted are exactly the places where you'd openly see such things happen, does not mean there aren't places where it's not so automatically accepted.

Which is exactly why (some) bi and gay people like to visit gay clubs. They can openly do what they want there, while it's not automaticly accepted anywhere else.

Modifié par Ottemis, 04 mai 2012 - 04:41 .

[LadyAly]

Ottemis wrote...

Kyrene wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

Now her father, yes, but Matriarch Aethyta isn't a romance option =)

And she warns you, you can't even rene-quickie (a la Jack) her on the bar counter either.

Yes, unamused Shep is unamused. In all seriousness though, I'd have gone for Aethyta, she's hands down my favorite NPC.

For me Aria would be a nice option, too.  Especially as a renegade - she is such a cool and sexy Asari.

[Hadeedak]

Speaking of coming out, "oops I'm into turians or something I guess" must have been quite the talk.

ME1: "Sorry, Kaidan. I don't date crew." "Sorry, Liara, just not into aliens." ME2: "Hi, Garrus." *eyebrow poink* ME3: "Ok, so I was totally lying about the crew and aliens thing. I guess. My bad!"

And speaking of girls I would have went for like THAT, Samara. Oh my god Samara. I did have an almost kiss Shepard, but that doesn't even cover how much OH MY GOD Samara.

Modifié par Hadeedak, 04 mai 2012 - 05:18 .

[SaturnRing]

YourFunnyUncle wrote...

SaturnRing wrote...

Are you suggesting that you see humans/aliens lack of relationship more as a trust issue rather than a coming out of the closet issue?

Actually I'm saying that there may well be a "coming out" issue with human/alien relationships but that the games do show us instances of such relationships existing quite openly: There's the Human asking after her Asari partner on the citadel, the Quarian complaining about her human ex-boyfriend and of course all the humans who are quite obviously attracted to the Asari dancers in the clubs.

I can see that... (paradox is not quite what i'm looking for). I feel as if the game did burn bridges by showing us humans/aliens relations without hinting on the degree of difficulty(acceptance ) it took to get there.
Although we do get the sense of lack of acceptance - from humans or aliens - in several instances, concerning broader interactions, i tend to dissociate romantic relashionship from the rest as it does imply coming out of the closet too. Don't know if any of it makes sense. It's a complex subject from all angles.

I like Ottemis and razviolet take on it.

Modifié par SaturnRing, 04 mai 2012 - 05:27 .

[Verly]

Penny in those cool visors. I thought as a tech expert they were fitting.

[sagefic]

Verly wrote...

Penny in those cool visors. I thought as a tech expert they were fitting.

This armor is so hot. Love it.

[Gilsa]

sagequeen wrote...

@ gilsa. 

-snip-

also, 2) while you can youtube a lot, it never has the same charm as actually playing the romance. because you rarely get ALL the easter eggs, the extra dialogs, the little moments while on missions, etc. and even just stupid little things like ALWAYS having garrus in your party with a garrus mancer and having matching sniper rifles can go a long ways to making the love feel real.

Oh, yes, yesssss. I learn this the hard way often! I remember watching Garrus' bedroom video and while I appreciated his head lean after the nightmare, I compared it to Kaidan's whose scene had a lot more content and figured Kaidan's probably ranked higher. And then I play my Garrusmancer and was constantly stunned by the steady stream of romance gestures, however small. I didn't get that with Kaidan! I had to wait for the big scenes with him! Garrus is just a slow smouldering burn the whooooole way through. I squeed left and right. Yep, I hear ya. Thou shall not judge by youtube videos.

true love means matching armor and guns, after all. am i right or am i right?

Haha. Guilty as charged!

[upsettingshorts]

Oh geez.

Liara and Femshep is a lesbian relationship for Femshep. Technically or otherwise. All Asari are female. They are not "null."

Furthermore, Liara is entirely composed of human female secondary sex characteristics. Those are things straight men and gay women are attracted to. In fact, they are often - although not exclusively, plenty of folks are attracted to androgyny - more important in determining sexual attraction than primary sex characteristics (eg. penis, vagina).

There is no such thing as a straight or gay relationship from the Asari perspective. They do not have gender or gender roles. The concept of gender requires some kind of dichotomy, and for a unisex species none exists from one to form.

However, Femshep is a human and comes from a culture that has feminine and masculine genders. Liara, and all Asari, are feminine by human definition.

The origin of the argument that Femshep/Liara "doesn't count" is a self-serving one that BioWare had offered in self-defense when it was pointed out to them that Mass Effect already had a lesbian romance, so not having a M/M one (at the time) was especially egregious.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 mai 2012 - 06:59 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Oh geez.

Liara and Femshep is a lesbian relationship for Femshep. Technically or otherwise. All Asari are female. They are not "null."

Furthermore, Liara is entirely composed of human female secondary sex characteristics. Those are things straight men and gay women are attracted to. In fact, they are often - although not exclusively, plenty of folks are attracted to androgyny - more important in determining sexual attraction than primary sex characteristics (eg. penis, vagina).

There is no such thing as a straight or gay relationship from the Asari perspective. They do not have gender or gender roles. The concept of gender requires some kind of dichotomy, and for a unisex species none exists from one to form.

However, Femshep is a human and comes from a culture that has feminine and masculine genders. Liara, and all Asari, are feminine by human definition.

The origin of the argument that Femshep/Liara "doesn't count" is a self-serving one that BioWare had offered in self-defense when it was pointed out to them that Mass Effect already had a lesbian romance, so not having a M/M one (at the time) was especially egregious. 

All of this.  Plus, Femshep can turn down Liara in ME1, mentioning that she prefers men.  Liara may not understand this concept,  but for Femshep, it would be an attraction to the same gender (lesbian).  There was also the case of Nef in Samara's loyalty mission who perceived Morinth as "a girl like [her]," even though Morinth was "not human." 

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 04 mai 2012 - 07:03 .

[Ottemis]

Yeah, that's what I said earlier, though quite possibly not as well-versed.