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[SaturnRing]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Oh geez.

Liara and Femshep is a lesbian relationship for Femshep. Technically or otherwise. All Asari are female. They are not "null."

Furthermore, Liara is entirely composed of human female secondary sex characteristics. Those are things straight men and gay women are attracted to. In fact, they are often - although not exclusively, plenty of folks are attracted to androgyny - more important in determining sexual attraction than primary sex characteristics (eg. penis, vagina).

There is no such thing as a straight or gay relationship from the Asari perspective. They do not have gender or gender roles. The concept of gender requires some kind of dichotomy, and for a unisex species none exists from one to form.

However, Femshep is a human and comes from a culture that has feminine and masculine genders. Liara, and all Asari, are feminine by human definition.

The origin of the argument that Femshep/Liara "doesn't count" is a self-serving one that BioWare had offered in self-defense when it was pointed out to them that Mass Effect already had a lesbian romance, so not having a M/M one (at the time) was especially egregious.

They clearly took it to heart and did overcompensate as now lesbian relationship per se is a no go for Femshep. From a Mass Effect social/cultural perspective, it hardly makes any sense.  

[upsettingshorts]

SaturnRing wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Oh geez.

Liara and Femshep is a lesbian relationship for Femshep. Technically or otherwise. All Asari are female. They are not "null."

Furthermore, Liara is entirely composed of human female secondary sex characteristics. Those are things straight men and gay women are attracted to. In fact, they are often - although not exclusively, plenty of folks are attracted to androgyny - more important in determining sexual attraction than primary sex characteristics (eg. penis, vagina).

There is no such thing as a straight or gay relationship from the Asari perspective. They do not have gender or gender roles. The concept of gender requires some kind of dichotomy, and for a unisex species none exists from one to form.

However, Femshep is a human and comes from a culture that has feminine and masculine genders. Liara, and all Asari, are feminine by human definition.

The origin of the argument that Femshep/Liara "doesn't count" is a self-serving one that BioWare had offered in self-defense when it was pointed out to them that Mass Effect already had a lesbian romance, so not having a M/M one (at the time) was especially egregious.

They clearly took it to heart and did overcompensate as now lesbian relationship per se is a no go for Femshep. From a Mass Effect social/cultural perspective, it hardly makes any sense.  

I have no idea what you are talking about, elaborate.

[SaturnRing]

Upsettingshorts wrote...


I have no idea what you are talking about, elaborate.

Never mind: I always forget about Traynor and Allers...sorry about that.
Although the obvious choice for Femshep would be Williams or Lawson.

[draken-heart]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

SaturnRing wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Oh geez.

Liara and Femshep is a lesbian relationship for Femshep. Technically or otherwise. All Asari are female. They are not "null."

Furthermore, Liara is entirely composed of human female secondary sex characteristics. Those are things straight men and gay women are attracted to. In fact, they are often - although not exclusively, plenty of folks are attracted to androgyny - more important in determining sexual attraction than primary sex characteristics (eg. penis, vagina).

There is no such thing as a straight or gay relationship from the Asari perspective. They do not have gender or gender roles. The concept of gender requires some kind of dichotomy, and for a unisex species none exists from one to form.

However, Femshep is a human and comes from a culture that has feminine and masculine genders. Liara, and all Asari, are feminine by human definition.

The origin of the argument that Femshep/Liara "doesn't count" is a self-serving one that BioWare had offered in self-defense when it was pointed out to them that Mass Effect already had a lesbian romance, so not having a M/M one (at the time) was especially egregious.

They clearly took it to heart and did overcompensate as now lesbian relationship per se is a no go for Femshep. From a Mass Effect social/cultural perspective, it hardly makes any sense.  

I have no idea what you are talking about, elaborate.

i think Saturn means that there is no meaningful Lesbian romance in the series for lesbian (gay female) Shepard

• Samantha Traynor's is a little fast-paced
• Kelly's is more believable but she probably sleeps w/some of the refugees
• Liara is an Asari, so by Bioware's definition, She is not female and thus the romance does not fell like a lesbian one.
• Allers is a fling, yet cannot be triggered if another romance is locked in.

Modifié par draken-heart, 04 mai 2012 - 08:45 .

[upsettingshorts]

draken-heart wrote...

i think Saturn means that there is no meaningful Lesbian romance in the series for lesbian (gay female) Shepard

• Samantha Traynor's is a little fast-paced
• Kelly's is more believable but she probably sleeps w/some of the refugees
• Liara is an Asari, so by Bioware's definition, She is not female and thus the romance does not fell like a lesbian one.

In order:
So?
So?
Who cares what BioWare says about it after the fact?  (Also, she is female.  BioWare consistently misuses sex and gender by using them inconsistently and inaccurately.)

Define "meaningful?"

A lesbian relationship is a lesbian relationship.  Full stop.  Attempting to categorize one subset into "real" and another subset into "not" quickly becomes problematic.

I disagree about Miranda Lawson though.  She canonically wants to have a biological child.  She'll dismiss potential male sexual partners simply if they're unlikely to get her pregnant. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 mai 2012 - 08:49 .

[draken-heart]

meaningful in a relationship, gay/straight is about emotional connection. all three of those have both have that but Kelly can't be with Shepard and Samantha's romance seems, to most, to be based on softcore porn than an actual romantic relationship. Liara's is more xenophillic than lesbian, due to the Blue skin and alien way of reproduction

Allers has no emotion in her romance at all, it's like "i think you are hot, you think i am hot, let's have sex"

Modifié par draken-heart, 04 mai 2012 - 08:54 .

[ADLegend21]

Whoa now. Traynor's romance is plenty emotional. What she says during the pre-cronos mission when shepard amits to being scared is flawless and before earth when she talks about the white pickett fences, two kids, and a dog is also emotional. sure it starts a bit fast but it evens itself out.

[ipgd]

draken-heart wrote...

• Liara is an Asari, so by Bioware's definition, She is not female

well, asari sure have vaginas

[SaturnRing]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

i think Saturn means that there is no meaningful Lesbian romance in the series for lesbian (gay female) Shepard

• Samantha Traynor's is a little fast-paced
  
  
• Kelly's is more believable but she probably sleeps w/some of the refugees
  
  
• Liara is an Asari, so by Bioware's definition, She is not female and thus the romance does not fell like a lesbian one.

In order:
So?
So?
Who cares what BioWare says about it after the fact?  (Also, she is female.  BioWare consistently misuses sex and gender by using them inconsistently and inaccurately.)

Define "meaningful?"

A lesbian relationship is a lesbian relationship.  Full stop.  Attempting to categorize one subset into "real" and another subset into "not" quickly becomes problematic.

To the player it is meaningful, not in the way it is presented in the game. The context doesn't give much depth to either; too much room is given to interpretation, notably as a way to blow up some steam - which i think is unfair to Allers or Traynor.

Modifié par SaturnRing, 04 mai 2012 - 08:58 .

[draken-heart]

i agree with you ADLegend, but a lot of people hate Sam's romance because there is no build-up to the sex scene, just some flirting, an offer to use the shower, the Badda-bing, Badda-boom, they are going at it like rabbits.

[upsettingshorts]

draken-heart wrote...

meaningful in a relationship, gay/straight is about emotional connection. all three of those have both have that but Kelly can't be with Shepard and Samantha's romance seems, to most, to be based on softcore porn than an actual romantic relationship. Liara's is more xenophillic than lesbian, due to the Blue skin and alien way of reproduction

Allers has no emotion in her romance at all, it's like "i think you are hot, you think i am hot, let's have sex"

A real relationship can't be based on sex?  Not even at first?

SaturnRing wrote...

To the player it is meaningful, not in the way it is presented in the game. The context doesn't give much depth to either; too much room is given to interpretation, notably as a way to blow up some steam - wich i think is unfair to Allers or Traynor.

That standard is unreasonably vague, not to mention subjective.

Not every romance will appeal to everyone, regardless of the orientations in question.  

Personally I would prefer if more BioWare romances were "based" on casual sex.  I tend to find the true-love-ish plots in the games... hard to believe.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 mai 2012 - 08:59 .

[draken-heart]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

draken-heart wrote...

meaningful in a relationship, gay/straight is about emotional connection. all three of those have both have that but Kelly can't be with Shepard and Samantha's romance seems, to most, to be based on softcore porn than an actual romantic relationship. Liara's is more xenophillic than lesbian, due to the Blue skin and alien way of reproduction

Allers has no emotion in her romance at all, it's like "i think you are hot, you think i am hot, let's have sex"

A real relationship can't be based on sex?  Not even at first?

SaturnRing wrote...

To the player it is meaningful, not in the way it is presented in the game. The context doesn't give much depth to either; too much room is given to interpretation, notably as a way to blow up some steam - wich i think is unfair to Allers or Traynor.

That standard is unreasonably vague, not to mention subjective.

Not every romance will appeal to everyone, regardless of the orientations in question.  

Personally I would prefer if more BioWare romances were "based" on casual sex.  I tend to find the true-love-ish plots in the games... hard to believe.

sex can be a part of it, but without that emotional attraction to the person, it is meaningless

[TheMarshal]

Just got one of those horrible realizations where I'm 80% of the way done with this chapter and will probably have to scrap the whole thing 'cause it's way off base from what I was trying to achieve...

[Tup3x]

Hmm... Last time I checked this was femShep thread and as far as I know it has hardly anything to do with Asari sexuality?

Modifié par Tup3xi, 04 mai 2012 - 09:10 .

[SaturnRing]

Upsettingshorts wrote...



That standard is unreasonably vague, not to mention subjective.

Not every romance will appeal to everyone, regardless of the orientations in question.  

Personally I would prefer if more BioWare romances were "based" on casual sex.  I tend to find the true-love-ish plots in the games... hard to believe.

I have to disagree here. My standard is not subjective. You don't share it because you'd prefer casual sex. Whether it is justifiable or not keeping sex out of romance in it's first step IS the standard.

Modifié par SaturnRing, 04 mai 2012 - 09:10 .

[upsettingshorts]

SaturnRing wrote...

I have to disagree here. My standard is not subjective. You don't share it because you'd prefer casual sex. Whether is justifiable or not keeping sex out of romance in it's first step IS the standard.

If a standard is not subjective, then there would be no disputing it over personal preference. 

"Meaningful" is too vague.  It means different things to different people.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 04 mai 2012 - 09:13 .

[Ottemis]

Off-topic, as Tupi said.
Also, pointless nitpicking. Agree to disagree, move on.

[SaturnRing]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

SaturnRing wrote...

I have to disagree here. My standard is not subjective. You don't share it because you'd prefer casual sex. Whether is justifiable or not keeping sex out of romance in it's first step IS the standard.

If a standard is not subjective, then there would be no disputing it over personal preference. 

Personal preferences don't stand a chance unless they go along the standard(collective subjectivity). It doesn't mean i agree with it. I see it more as a safe guard.

[TheMarshal]

Ottemis wrote...

Off-topic, as Tupi said.
Also, pointless nitpicking. Agree to disagree, move on.

Or start a new thread for it.  This is the romance discussion forum.

[SaturnRing]

Ottemis wrote...

Off-topic, as Tupi said.
Also, pointless nitpicking. Agree to disagree, move on.

I think i speak for both when i say that there is no animosity between us. I'm actually enjoying this. Unless it's too off topic then i'll stop(would be a shame tho).

[SaturnRing]

TheMarshal wrote...

Ottemis wrote...

Off-topic, as Tupi said.
Also, pointless nitpicking. Agree to disagree, move on.

Or start a new thread for it.  This is the romance discussion forum.

Wow. We're actually talking romance from a femshep pov.  I don't understand???

[Whale]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Personally I would prefer if more BioWare romances were "based" on casual sex.  I tend to find the true-love-ish plots in the games... hard to believe.

Because there is always a good reason to post Aido's Garrus fanart.

Anyway, I think it depends on your and your Shep's preference, but a think a friends with benefits or even a good old no strings attached scenario is perfectly appropriate for the story and nothing to be dismissed. My vanguard Shep was definitely going through some of these ideas 'round the end of ME2... "I'm about to start a suicide mission and I haven't had any sex for TWO YEARS. Cerberus didn't carefully rebuild certain parts of my anatomy for me to take them unused through the Omega 4 relay. Gaaaaaarrus... ". She's a One Turian Kind of Woman now, but at the time it was definitely a combination of trust + blowing off steam + least likely to brag about it to the crew afterwards.

ETA: don't mean to go off-topic so here's a couple of shots of the vanguard Shep in question:

Modifié par Whale, 04 mai 2012 - 09:38 .

[TheMarshal]

SaturnRing wrote...

Wow. We're actually talking romance from a femshep pov.  I don't understand???

But you're debating the legitimacies of certain romances and the depth of others.  That FemShep is a player in all of those romances is tangential, since if people were doing a comparison of Thane's vs. Garrus' romance we'd tell them to take it outside as well.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Oh geez.

Liara and Femshep is a lesbian relationship for Femshep. Technically or otherwise. All Asari are female. They are not "null."

Furthermore, Liara is entirely composed of human female secondary sex characteristics. Those are things straight men and gay women are attracted to. In fact, they are often - although not exclusively, plenty of folks are attracted to androgyny - more important in determining sexual attraction than primary sex characteristics (eg. penis, vagina).

There is no such thing as a straight or gay relationship from the Asari perspective. They do not have gender or gender roles. The concept of gender requires some kind of dichotomy, and for a unisex species none exists from one to form.

However, Femshep is a human and comes from a culture that has feminine and masculine genders. Liara, and all Asari, are feminine by human definition.

The origin of the argument that Femshep/Liara "doesn't count" is a self-serving one that BioWare had offered in self-defense when it was pointed out to them that Mass Effect already had a lesbian romance, so not having a M/M one (at the time) was especially egregious. 0

I wasn't talking from a human or Asari perspective. I was talking from a scientific perspective. you say they are all female. I say they are all Asari. This is not "null" it is something else. A third way, if you will.

I fully accept that Lesbians and straight men are more likely to be attracted to Asari because of their obvious female characteristics and I am wholeheartedly behind you when you say that lesbians were better served by ME1 than gay men, but strictly speaking it is not the case that they are female. I couldn't care less what Bioware said on the matter. This is just what is obvious to me from a scientific perspective.

All that said, I still maintain that human society in the Mass Effect Universe is one where gay and lesbian relationships seem to be accepted by society as normal. For this reason I don't see that any Shepard would have to "come out" as they'd have no need to be in the closet in the first place.

[YourFunnyUncle]

Tup3xi wrote...

Hmm... Last time I checked this was femShep thread and as far as I know it has hardly anything to do with Asari sexuality?

Yeah sorry about that. I'll shut up now, at least. 

Here, have a femshep.

http://cloud.steampo...048B9EF6E4F951/

Modifié par YourFunnyUncle, 04 mai 2012 - 09:43 .