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[TEWR]

I want to get my thoughts down right now.

ELVES:

Note that my post on the Elves isn't going to be a "Their new design sucks/is awesome!" type of thread. No, rather this is something entirely different, so I'm going to try not to focus on the racial design too much.

Recently I discussed with Das Tentakel how I couldn't get into the mindset of an elf because they didn't look the part. This is partly due to how in DAO they were just shorter humans with pointy ears. I'm glad that Bioware changed the design to have a little more variety. It's also partly due to how lifeless the clans feel.

Now they're not just humans with pointy ears, but they're still humanoid. This helps them have their own identity, as does the Welsh/Irish voices. But not by much. But I do like the new design

I said on another thread that Elves can't just be humans with pointy ears. That does not mean they should turn into amorphous, eight-limbed blob monsters with carrots for noses and antlers on their head. It just means that they can't always be "humans with pointy ears".

As I said above, there's a little variety in the design. Which is what's important. There's more differences in their design.

Now, onto the main point of my Elf section. I think Bioware needs to do some work on making the Elven culture and society visually apparent. We've been told about things in the Elven culture. What their armor looks like, how they act, etc.

But we don't actually see it.

Take for instance the Dalish Leather Armor's description:

This was fashioned from deerskin, and has been embossed with designs of hunting hawks and serpents. When equipped in a set with the Dalish gloves and boots, the character gains a bonus to defense.

And then compare it with what it actually looks like:



leather bikini for women. Sadly, I can't find an image of the male version, but I know for a fact that it is nothing close to the description.

Or take Varathorn's armor:

The metal almost looks as if it were wet with rain. The scales have been carved into the shapes of leaves, each different, and detailed even to veins and insect bites.

And then look at the actual design:



This is Scale armor, which is exactly what Varathorn's armor looks like.

The Ancient Elven Armor set is better, because it has its own visual style that kinda gives the Elves their own look.

You see, the Dalish are an amalgam of four distinct cultures from our world: the Jewish, Romani, Native Americans, and Celtic tribes.

But they display barely anything to go in line with these cultures. They do not use the fur of animals in everyday Dalish life -- rugs, blankets, fur armor, etc. --, nor do we see them engage in.... well... anything that makes us think "Hey, these guys are reflecting on this culture in their own style."

Now I realize DAO was restricted into using copypasta armor for... basically everything. But this isn't the case in DAII. DAII introduced many new armor sets, so we should've seen the Dalish have their own armor design. Instead, it's just a color swap of the Ancient Elven armor or the "Dalish" Leather armor from DAO.

Bioware has all of the elements in the games to give the Elves their own look, but they have yet to utilize it. I would like for Bioware to study these four cultures I mentioned, and then have the Dalish do things that resemble what these other cultures do, but in their own style.

If any of that makes any sense.

Here's some of what I said on another thread:

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

...I was told I was an elf through codexes and dialogue, but there was no real visual identity to strike them as being different from the human population. As such, I couldn't get into this mindset of being an elf because I didn't look nor feel the part of one. There is nothing different about them in terms of appearance or even tribal culture for how they should be different.

They have no unique clothing. They have no unique armor. They do not wear fur. They do not strike me as being their own version of any of the four cultures both you and I have called them. It's clear this is Bioware's intent, but they have yet to visualize it and make it apparent.

For all of what the item descriptions of certain Dalish armor and weapons give, it's just a copypasta of old Origins model armor. And even in DAII, Dalish armor is just a copypasta of the Ancient Elven Armor or some leather armor, with a different color scheme.

These guys are supposed to be close to nature. As such, I want to see this be apparent in the culture. I want to see the clans doing things that they should be doing to reflect on these four cultures.

As it stands, all they seem to really do is practice their superiority complex.

I mean, the Welsh/Irish voices are nice because that certainly adds a little identity all their own, but the DA elves have a far ways to go to be visually unique.

For some flavor of my own, here's a Cherokee mourning song:



and an Ojibwe -- my tribe -- song:



and one more Native American song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lUU_om7a8MQ&feature=related


If DA3 could depict the Elves to have more of a Native American feel -- as well as Celtic, Romani, and Jewish -- then I would be willing to play as one in DA3.

Granted, Dwarves are still my favorite race, but Elves would immediately be a close second if they could do what I want. Which is make the Elves be Elves in more than just the physical depiction. The psychological and cultural depictions are crucial to this whole thing.

Darkspawn:

Some of you may remember my previous thread entitled Darkspawn, we ask you to revert to your old look. You are too cuddly now. I want to echo those sentiments here.

I'm going to keep this short and sweet, as I figured I could knock two birds out with one stone:

Here's what I proposed on another thread many moons ago:

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote....

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

hmmm... I might approve of the new Hurlocks, but only if they had these traits:

1) More bloody, dirty, tainted, and less shiny white
2) Had different noses (some being torn or ripped), and have some who have the original Hurlock type nose
3) wore armor that actually looks like the original Darkspawn armor, or something that looks half-assed.
4) had sharp teeth again
5) had monstrous tattoos again
6) lose their hair. That made them look more like Uruk-Hai for me, so the hair needs to go.
7) appeared in high level of detail on all platforms.
8) The Hurlock Emissaries -- since I remember Bioware saying all we would see in DAII's base game were Hurlocks and Ogres -- need to drop the S&M gear on the face and the pointy ears.

and to go even further

For Ogres, they need:

1) Less mushed up face
2) Completely gray or completely purple
3) Soulless eyes
4) A return to the DAO teeth that they had. There is a difference between the two sets of teeth



For Genlocks:

1) Tinker around with the color scheme. Most people would like them to not be beige. Me? I couldn't care less about their color. I love the new design. The Genlocks in Origins were the only ones that needed an overhaul, and the new design works
2) Make the Genlock Alphas taller than regular Genlocks like they are now, but smaller than Hurlock Grunts. Or just make the Hurlock grunts taller than the Alphas, and the Hurlock Alphas are also given a height boost.
3) Bring back Genlock Emissaries. Since the Darkspawn use the taint in their bodies to use magic -- per a DG post somewhere on here I believe -- there's no issue with Genlock Emissaries.


For Shrieks:

1) a return to the DAO style (color scheme and sharp teeth included)
2) drop the protrusions from the old style
3) move the ears down
4) give them a more elf-like body. Looking at the old design, they seem to have pointed feet, while the new design has more normal-esque feet.
5) make their heads more narrow and have less of a giant forehead.
6) Give us some Shriek Emissaries.

So.... yea...

I had been thinking about this earlier today and felt that it deserved a thread.

Modifié par TEWR, 14 mars 2014 - 03:52 .

[robmokron]

I currently like the Elf look, and they need to be more defined, i think DA3 will implement things like this more due to skyrim. Skyrim had a very unique world, i think Bioware will reflect that but in race/faction cultures instead

[TEWR]

robmokron wrote...

I currently like the Elf look, and they need to be more defined, i think DA3 will implement things like this more due to skyrim. Skyrim had a very unique world, i think Bioware will reflect that but in race/faction cultures instead

Yea I like the racial design too, but I just really want Bioware to give their Elves a distinct visual style that reflects on their Elven culture.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 janvier 2012 - 12:54 .

[chunkyman]

Genlocks and Shrieks were the only thing that looked "off" to me in DA:O. Everything else was fine.

I didn't mind the elves looking like humans. Now they are just creepy.

[element eater]

well i agree in some regards but i don't think the Dalish are as poorly executed you seem to imply in your post(atleast in origins). Yes the clothing does not match up to its in game description but this is true for a great number of the in game outfits . They did however have unique weapon styles and a face markings that were not seen any were else. the camp contained the tents the carvings of the gods and other objects which again to me indicated the nature of Dalish culture and its craftsmanship and how it differed from other regions. Likewise characters like the story teller, the two young lovers , the apprentice keeper and the halla keeper all demonstrated there cultural differences.

Unfortunately i think da2 pretty much ruined the dalish. It did this in a number of ways Firstly the furniture npc's rob the clan of all life,  after frequenting the mountain across a 10 year period u barely get any dialogue with the clan and what you do get is nearly all quest related and thus gives no flavour of the culture. This is then made worse by just how much of a mess Merils quest line is it realy makes it difficult to the dalish as anything but insane(in much a similar way as the main story makes most of kirkwalls residents seem completely nuts). Another big problem with the Dalish is consistency in 2 games we have 2 completely different creature designs 3 different accents 2 returning characters who have been completely changed in merrils case to a completely new character. We also see them seemingly contradict what we were previously told about them. In dao we are given the impression they are constantly moving around and yet in da2 they spend 10 years in the same exact spot. We are also told they avoid humans yet they camp near kirkwall and a number of times come into direct conflict with human goups over the course of the game,

I think on the whole including the dalish in da2 was a mmistake. The game struggles to effectively deal with kirkwal and including another entirely differant culture on top of that was more then they could feasibly achive given the constraints of the game. Not to mention just how much this particular clans inclusion could completely ruin your DAO import if u ran with the dalish origin. I actualy gave up on my dalish game and moved to another import

Modifié par element eater, 25 janvier 2012 - 01:41 .

[Jamie_edmo]

Out of the two the darkspawn definitely need an overhaul, the da2 elves need some tweaking specifically the npcs, (the city elves more so). For the dalish apart from the welsh/irish accents they weren't any more defined then they were in origins. About the dalish not using skin/fur of animals, wasnt there like fur mats in the dalish camp in origns?

BTW I was wondering was there ever any official reason for the darkspawn change, I know the elves was to differentiate from humans, but i dont understand the darkspawn change

Modifié par Jamie_edmo, 25 janvier 2012 - 01:35 .

[Jamie_edmo]

Double Post

Modifié par Jamie_edmo, 25 janvier 2012 - 01:35 .

[LPPrince]

Short and simple-

Agreed on the darkspawn.

Partially agreed on the elves.

With elves, I think they went too far in DA2. Way too far. Now they look creepy and decrepit. Anorexic, ugly, etc etc.

I say return them to their DAO look, but identify them by other means than their bodies and face.

Identify them by the clothes they wear, the way they talk, the way they walk, their mannerisms, etc etc.

They can still look beautiful as they did in DAO and be clearly identified as elves. They don't need huge dinner-plate eyes and bodies the width of a tree branch to be known as elves.

At least, that's what I'd like to see done with them.

Modifié par LPPrince, 25 janvier 2012 - 02:51 .

[TEWR]

Never mind I was wrong.

Still, I don't want this to boil down to a discussion on solely the racial design of the Elves.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 janvier 2012 - 03:17 .

[TEWR]

element eater wrote...

well i agree in some regards but i don't think the Dalish are as poorly executed you seem to imply in your post(atleast in origins). Yes the clothing does not match up to its in game description but this is true for a great number of the in game outfits . They did however have unique weapon styles and a face markings that were not seen any were else. the camp contained the tents the carvings of the gods and other objects which again to me indicated the nature of Dalish culture and its craftsmanship and how it differed from other regions. Likewise characters like the story teller, the two young lovers , the apprentice keeper and the halla keeper all demonstrated there cultural differences.

The unique weapons definitely help, as does the Vallaslin. But.... it's just not enough. In DAO, having unique weapons and facial tattoos didn't mean much.

Likewise, the statues are just statues. We don't see the Dalish performing anything to these gods. Prayers or spiritual dancing or anything else.

Merrill thankfully prays to Mythal in DAII, but otherwise the clan in DAO doesn't pray to their gods.

So what if they abandoned them? They should still pray to them.

I'll give you Cammen and Gheyna, but I find the "You must kill a wolf to marry" kinda defeats the representation of the unique culture. The Dalish are close to nature and use what nature gives in their everyday life, but this seems.... wasteful.

It just seems like it's not really representative of a unique culture that adheres to keeping in tune with nature. It would've been representative -- imo -- if Cammen had a unique armor crafted from the wolf pelt and wore it afterwards.

Then, that would show the unique culture. He would've had a wolf pelt made into an armor and proven himself as a full hunter allowed to marry in the eyes of his peers, even if it was really a lie on how he got that first pelt.

Unfortunately i think da2 pretty much ruined the dalish. It did this in a number of ways Firstly the furniture npc's rob the clan of all life,  after frequenting the mountain across a 10 year period u barely get any dialogue with the clan and what you do get is nearly all quest related and thus gives no flavour of the culture. This is then made worse by just how much of a mess Merils quest line is it realy makes it difficult to the dalish as anything but insane(in much a similar way as the main story makes most of kirkwalls residents seem completely nuts). Another big problem with the Dalish is consistency in 2 games we have 2 completely different creature designs 3 different accents 2 returning characters who have been completely changed in merrils case to a completely new character. We also see them seemingly contradict what we were previously told about them. In dao we are given the impression they are constantly moving around and yet in da2 they spend 10 years in the same exact spot. We are also told they avoid humans yet they camp near kirkwall and a number of times come into direct conflict with human goups over the course of the game.

First, they lost all their halla and Marethari has made little to no effort in trying to get them more halla. So that's the reason they're stuck there.

Second, Sundermount is miles and miles away from Kirkwall, so they're not camping near the city.

Third, I don't see how the Irish/Welsh voices are a bad thing now.

Fourth, I agree that the clan was lifeless in DAII, but I saw the clan in DAO as just as lifeless.

I think on the whole including the dalish in da2 was a mmistake. The game struggles to effectively deal with kirkwal and including another entirely differant culture on top of that was more then they could feasibly achive given the constraints of the game. Not to mention just how much this particular clans inclusion could completely ruin your DAO import if u ran with the dalish origin. I actualy gave up on my dalish game and moved to another import

 the clan's inclusion ruin your Dalish Elf's import? No it doesn't.

Jamie_edmo wrote...

Out of the two the darkspawn definitely need an overhaul, the da2 elves need some tweaking specifically the npcs, (the city elves more so). For the dalish apart from the welsh/irish accents they weren't any more defined then they were in origins. About the dalish not using skin/fur of animals, wasnt there like fur mats in the dalish camp in origns?

BTW I was wondering was there ever any official reason for the darkspawn change, I know the elves was to differentiate from humans, but i dont understand the darkspawn change

Regarding the Elves, not that I saw. Of course, I play on PS3 so it might've been a visual detail that was lost to consoles and exists on PC only.

If so, then I would want Bioware to make sure this type of stuff can also be seen on the consoles, as I couldn't get into the mindset of "I'm an elf" in DAO's Dalish Origin.

Ironically, the City Elf Origin made me feel like a City Elf, but that storyline didn't interest me enough to go past Ostagar. I found the idea of the Dalish to be far more interesting, and I had to force myself to finish that playthrough.

Also, I want the Elves to have shoulder length hair -- at least shoulder length -- as a customizable option.

LPPrince wrote...

Short and simple-

Agreed on the darkspawn.

Partially agreed on the elves.

With elves, I think they went too far in DA2. Way too far. Now they look creepy and decrepit. Anorexic, ugly, etc etc.

I say return them to their DAO look, but identify them by other means than their bodies and face.

Identify them by the clothes they wear, the way they talk, the way they walk, their mannerisms, etc etc.

They can still look beautiful as they did in DAO and be clearly identified as elves. They don't need huge dinner-plate eyes and bodies the width of a tree branch to be known as elves.

At least, that's what I'd like to see done with them.

I dunno, I think tmp7704 made a good case on the design's potential for those that didn't like it with his mod:






The blue is DA:O's elves, the grey is DA2 and the white is the mod


Though I prefer DAII's design simply because I've seen it in action coupled with the Welsh/Irish voices. I would have to see the Welsh/Irish voices with the DAII-in-DAO style in action to know for certain where I stand.

Also, agreed on the visual representation of the culture.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 janvier 2012 - 09:49 .

[greekmonkey95]

Learn from "Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning" because you can tell the difference between humans and elves without the elves looking like martians.

[LPPrince]

greekmonkey95 wrote...

Learn from "Kingdoms of Amalur: Reckoning" because you can tell the difference between humans and elves without the elves looking like martians.

This. Ha, that's something I should mention in my thread. Thats definitely something they should take from KoA.

[LPPrince]

As far as changing the look of elves via mods, I can't do that on 360. I depend on the devs.

As far as mannerisms and such, that's of course up to the devs.

I think elves should look closer to human than they do in DA2, but be more elven through their lifestyles.

Kinda how in Mass Effect when Commander Shepard could only see the visions clearly after he had learned the Prothean Cipher, I think elves need to be so different in the way they live that it would require a lot of study to truly understand who they are, what they are, and why they are the way they are.

Not to the extent of a long extinct alien race, but you know what I mean.

[TEWR]

Out of curiosity LPPrince, what is it about the new racial design of the Elves that you personally dislike? Like, specifically what you dislike.

[SkittlesKat96]

I'm probably wrong but I have a feeling that in Awakening because of the Architect and his plot line they thought that the Darkspawn needed to be less scarier looking or something so they made those talking Darkspawn that look a bit different (http://www.blogcdn.c...tect_010710.jpg) then in Dragon Age 2 for some reason they tried to make all the Darkspawn look like that and they failed real badly.

I really doubt it (I think I believe them when they said they wanted to make them less cliched, although to be honest the Darkspawn were never really THAT cliched at all.)

[Pzykozis]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

I'm probably wrong but I have a feeling that in Awakening because of the Architect and his plot line they thought that the Darkspawn needed to be less scarier looking or something so they made those talking Darkspawn that look a bit different (http://www.blogcdn.c...tect_010710.jpg) then in Dragon Age 2 for some reason they tried to make all the Darkspawn look like that and they failed real badly.

I really doubt it (I think I believe them when they said they wanted to make them less cliched, although to be honest the Darkspawn were never really THAT cliched at all.)

You mean Orc'n'goblinspawn didn't look cliched? I believe they said something to the effect of making them look like a race almost, kinda like giving them a uniform, not sure if that worked opinions vary i guess.

I agree with you OP I wrote a fairly massive coupleof posts in that thread saying the same thing about the elves, I boil it down to "We're elves! We love our culture so much we keep it hidden in safes at the bottom of the ocean".

A lot of the elven world building is through telling and not showing, whereas showing is a pretty big part of a visual media this is kinda forgotten in a lot of RPGs due to their.. more bookishness.

[TEWR]

Pzykozis wrote...


You mean Orc'n'goblinspawn didn't look cliched? I believe they said something to the effect of making them look like a race almost, kinda like giving them a uniform, not sure if that worked opinions vary i guess.

I agree with you OP I wrote a fairly massive coupleof posts in that thread saying the same thing about the elves, I boil it down to "We're elves! We love our culture so much we keep it hidden in safes at the bottom of the ocean".

A lot of the elven world building is through telling and not showing, whereas showing is a pretty big part of a visual media this is kinda forgotten in a lot of RPGs due to their.. more bookishness.

Indeed. I really hope Bioware sees how bad it is to simply tell people they're an elf of a different culture and then just forget that you have to make them believe it in the game world.

I think one thing that really helps strengthen my point in my original post was the Halla statuette one can give Merrill. This eventually becomes a fixture in her home in the Alienage, and it shows in its own right what the Dalish can do.

But, as with the Vallaslin and the unique style weapons -- which disappeared in DAII IIRC despite one being able to find Dalish weapons -- it isn't enough. That one little thing doesn't make up for the severe lack of visual apparency.

I think another thing that would've helped would've been if we could've seen Tamlen's "funeral". Supposedly, the Elves plant trees over the remains of a person that dies. Why couldn't we see that? Why couldn't we see them praying to Falon'din at the funeral? Why couldn't we see them do.... well.... anything that would make a person think they have their own way.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 25 janvier 2012 - 10:21 .

[Saile]

I'd love to see more of the dalish culture in future games. While I can understand they don't like humans too much and might want to hide as much from them as they can, you...need to have something to hide in the first place. DA:O's camp was a bit empty but at least it looked like people lived there. DA2's camp didn't even have that, in my opinion. I love the Welsh/Irish accents and the new design kind of grew on me, but I'd still like to see... err... a bit more naturally looking proportions? I rather like the faces, but the long, thin necks on small shoulders could use a bit of a fix. Like this: on the left I made Merrill's neck a tiny bit shorter, on the right is the original. I think it looks a lot more natural, anyway.

As for the darkspawn... The way they're described in The Calling, for example, really makes it sound like the taint is eating away at them. They sound like vile creatures, like they had nasty ulcers with black goo dripping from them. I could understand you wouldn't want to live side by side with them, even if they could talk and acted somewhat civilised, like the Architect. DA:Os darkspawn still aren't all that terrifying in my opinion (except for the broodmother) but still a lot better than DA2's "Look at me, I just bathed and got a pedicure, don't I look faaaaabulous?"-like darkspawn. I do like the look of the new Genlock alpha, though- it's looks more unique than the tiny hurlocks in DA:O. I'd also love to see a scene sometime where, instead of just seeing them pointlessly wandering around, you actually interrupt them in something... like digging and looking for an old god.

Modifié par Sailers, 25 janvier 2012 - 11:34 .

[LPPrince]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Out of curiosity LPPrince, what is it about the new racial design of the Elves that you personally dislike? Like, specifically what you dislike.

Huge eyes, extremely thin bodies, the lack of shoes, and being plagued by DA2 generally making everyone look worse. Except Qunari and Flemeth. Also, I wasn't very fond of giving them all the same accent. I figured different tribes should sound different, not the elves as a whole.

DA2 for me did a lot of things wrong for character design, but elves for me were the biggest problem.

I vastly preferred elves in DAO. If they want to redesign elves, they should portray them in a way that doesn't make them look sickly and alien.

I like how Kingdoms of Amalur's elves look. Let me grab an image(in game) and lets see if I can say what I'd like to be done to turn it into a likeable DA elf(for me)-



Now then, some changes for DA-

Skin color would have to stay as it is in the DA games(you know, NATURAL).
Eyes would have to go back to a human size. I dunno whats with the huge eye craze.

I'm a fan of the attractive elves that retain some human characteristics as far as physical appearance goes.

As far as attire is concerned, look to these two links-

http://www.amalur.co...gdoms/ljosalfar
http://www.amalur.co...gdoms/dokkalfar

You won't see humans wearing attire like that. If elves are walking around wearing clothes like that, you'll know in a microsecond its an elf.

And that's just appearance and attire correction I'm covering. We've already went over how they should have different lifestyles, different quirks, different essenses to their very existence.

They need to feel distinctly different. Not just look it, but BE different.

Although honestly, I'm at a loss for how to convey that in a post.

Modifié par LPPrince, 25 janvier 2012 - 12:32 .

[Huntress]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

robmokron wrote...

I currently like the Elf look, and they need to be more defined, i think DA3 will implement things like this more due to skyrim. Skyrim had a very unique world, i think Bioware will reflect that but in race/faction cultures instead

Yea I like the racial design too, but I just really want Bioware to give their Elves a distinct visual style that reflects on their Elven culture.

Didn't the elves lost their culture?

I don't know don't want to put water on you're soup but,, how can they represent something that has been lost for hundreds of years?
The Dalish only started to find few things from their pass  but many of them have no undestanding of the marking/lenguage and likes. And the dalish clans have to move all the time, thats hardly enough time to make a connection with their pass.
Even keeper Marethari fears her people pass with good reason you shouldn't meddle on things that you have no knowledge.

[Huntress]

LPPrince wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Out of curiosity LPPrince, what is it about the new racial design of the Elves that you personally dislike? Like, specifically what you dislike.

Huge eyes, extremely thin bodies, the lack of shoes, and being plagued by DA2 generally making everyone look worse. Except Qunari and Flemeth. Also, I wasn't very fond of giving them all the same accent. I figured different tribes should sound different, not the elves as a whole.

DA2 for me did a lot of things wrong for character design, but elves for me were the biggest problem.

I vastly preferred elves in DAO. If they want to redesign elves, they should portray them in a way that doesn't make them look sickly and alien.

I like how Kingdoms of Amalur's elves look. Let me grab an image(in game) and lets see if I can say what I'd like to be done to turn it into a likeable DA elf(for me)-


I'm a fan of the attractive elves that retain some human characteristics as far as physical appearance goes.

You won't see humans wearing attire like that. If elves are walking around wearing clothes like that, you'll know in a microsecond its an elf.

They need to feel distinctly different. Not just look it, but BE different.

I agree with all this, i do like da2 but elves are a down for me and i wish they stop making elves stands like this:

[robmokron]

element eater wrote...

well i agree in some regards but i don't think the Dalish are as poorly executed you seem to imply in your post(atleast in origins). Yes the clothing does not match up to its in game description but this is true for a great number of the in game outfits . They did however have unique weapon styles and a face markings that were not seen any were else. the camp contained the tents the carvings of the gods and other objects which again to me indicated the nature of Dalish culture and its craftsmanship and how it differed from other regions. Likewise characters like the story teller, the two young lovers , the apprentice keeper and the halla keeper all demonstrated there cultural differences.

Unfortunately i think da2 pretty much ruined the dalish. It did this in a number of ways Firstly the furniture npc's rob the clan of all life,  after frequenting the mountain across a 10 year period u barely get any dialogue with the clan and what you do get is nearly all quest related and thus gives no flavour of the culture. This is then made worse by just how much of a mess Merils quest line is it realy makes it difficult to the dalish as anything but insane(in much a similar way as the main story makes most of kirkwalls residents seem completely nuts). Another big problem with the Dalish is consistency in 2 games we have 2 completely different creature designs 3 different accents 2 returning characters who have been completely changed in merrils case to a completely new character. We also see them seemingly contradict what we were previously told about them. In dao we are given the impression they are constantly moving around and yet in da2 they spend 10 years in the same exact spot. We are also told they avoid humans yet they camp near kirkwall and a number of times come into direct conflict with human goups over the course of the game,

I think on the whole including the dalish in da2 was a mmistake. The game struggles to effectively deal with kirkwal and including another entirely differant culture on top of that was more then they could feasibly achive given the constraints of the game. Not to mention just how much this particular clans inclusion could completely ruin your DAO import if u ran with the dalish origin. I actualy gave up on my dalish game and moved to another import

i understand your frustration, For the most part a agree, but what i dont agree with is the Dalish origin..

Yes it seems weird if you chose that the Dalish are given land at the end of DA:O, it doesn't seem to make much or any difference, but my conversations with Merrill about the Hero of Ferledan was awesome! Loved hearing how much she worshipped him

[Ponendus]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I said on another thread that Elves can't just be humans with pointy ears. That does not mean they should turn into amorphous, eight-limbed blob monsters with carrots for noses and antlers on their head. It just means that they can't always be "humans with pointy ears".

Why can't they? I don't understand. They are often humans with pointy ears in dozens of other games and it works fine. That is the image people often have of a traditional elf (i personally describe them as 'beautiful' humans with pointy ears)? What exactly is the issue with that?

[TEWR]

LPPrince wrote...

Huge eyes, extremely thin bodies, the lack of shoes, and being plagued by DA2 generally making everyone look worse. Except Qunari and Flemeth. Also, I wasn't very fond of giving them all the same accent. I figured different tribes should sound different, not the elves as a whole.

correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the Elves in the clan wear shoes? Or at least some of them? Could've sworn Fenarel did.

Personally, I love the new look. It doesn't seem disproportionate to me, and in MotA there was an Elf in a jail cell that didn't have a shirt on, so one could see his body was proportionate. Likewise

For Merrill, her neck isn't really an issue for me as she's about 3 inches shorter than Hawke at most, and Hawke is about 6 feet. Since I'm a little 6 feet and I have a naturally elongated neck, so it seems proportional for Merrill to have one.

Likewise, it seems that the female elves also have proportional bodies.

DA2 for me did a lot of things wrong for character design, but elves for me were the biggest problem.

I vastly preferred elves in DAO. If they want to redesign elves, they should portray them in a way that doesn't make them look sickly and alien.

Oddly enough the ones that seemed sickly and alien for me were DAO's Elves. The faces were fine -- albeit bland because they were just humans with pointy ears -- but the bodies were so disproportionate that I almost wanted to vomit.

I like how Kingdoms of Amalur's elves look. Let me grab an image(in game) and lets see if I can say what I'd like to be done to turn it into a likeable DA elf(for me)-



Now then, some changes for DA-

Skin color would have to stay as it is in the DA games(you know, NATURAL).
Eyes would have to go back to a human size. I dunno whats with the huge eye craze.

But her appearance is distinctly elven. As far as attire is concerned, look to these two links-

http://www.amalur.co...gdoms/ljosalfar
http://www.amalur.co...gdoms/dokkalfar

Yes! Those links have Elves have their own visual style for their attire! That's what I want DA Elves to do! I want them to have their own visual style of clothing/armor that is a semblance to the four cultures they imitate.

You won't see humans wearing attire like that. If elves are walking around wearing clothes like that, you'll know in a microsecond its an elf.

And that's just appearance and attire correction I'm covering. We've already went over how they should have different lifestyles, different quirks, different essenses to their very existence.

They need to feel distinctly different. Not just look it, but BE different.

Although honestly, I'm at a loss for how to convey that in a post.

Me too. It's hard to actually describe what I want to see, but I'll give it a try.

I want them to demonstrate to the world how close to nature they really are beyond just telling people. I want them to hunt the animals and use as much of the animal is possible in their life, trying to keep what's wasted to a minimum (like Native Americans would do).

I want their armor to not only look Elven like the descriptions of the DAO armor led us to believe, but I want for them to also wear fur (again, like Native Americans would do).

I want them to pray to their gods without the player having to see it in a cutscene. I want them to do spiritual dancing to their gods, assuming the Elven culture ever had spiritual dancing to gods.

I want to see their craftsmen working to create weapons without the player needing to initiate these things through cutscenes.

I want them to have a distinctly Elven lifestyle coupled with their new look and new voices. Bioware has so far, imo, not put any effort into making their Elves actually be Elves. This is more than just what they physically look like. It's also how they act and live since they're free of human society and no longer bound by those rules.

I want them to feel alive.

[TEWR]

Huntress wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

robmokron wrote...

I currently like the Elf look, and they need to be more defined, i think DA3 will implement things like this more due to skyrim. Skyrim had a very unique world, i think Bioware will reflect that but in race/faction cultures instead

Yea I like the racial design too, but I just really want Bioware to give their Elves a distinct visual style that reflects on their Elven culture.

Didn't the elves lost their culture?

I don't know don't want to put water on you're soup but,, how can they represent something that has been lost for hundreds of years?

they didn't lose all of it. They know some of it, and so they should reflect on it.