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[Fast Jimmy]

^
Exactly. The desire to turn the art style from realistic in DAO to spikes and pointy armor everywhere in DA2 was confusing at best, unexplainable at worst.

[LPPrince]

You know the champion armor for rogues?

Someone tell me what the hell was the point behind that thing jutting out of the chest plate.

[alex90c]

LPPrince wrote...

You know the champion armor for rogues?

Someone tell me what the hell was the point behind that thing jutting out of the chest plate.

Because spikes and pointless protrusions are cool, obviously.

You know Mass Effect? They should make the N7 armour all spiky. Then people will think "wow, awesome!".

[Das Tentakel]

 

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
But, as I said in my original post -- and subsequent posts that followed -- I prefer it if this thread didn't become one that focuses solely on the racial design.
I'd prefer it if that came secondary and the visualization of Elven culture -- with vague references to their four parent cultures thrown in sometimes -- came first.
Also, Darkspawn. Dear god the Darkspawn.
Not trying to police my own thread, but I think the culture takes more precedence than the divided opinions on the racial design which has been done to death in about.... 18 other threads before.

I'm a bit late to this party, but I agree. The racial design, as in the physiology of the Elves, is a distinct question. It's one Bioware seems to have viewed as a problem, both from an artistic and a 'marketing' viewpoint, and it's not one easily answered. Some people prefer their Elves as tall, slender, beautiful humans with pointy ears (say, the LotR model, but also present in the older D&D art), while others prefer their Elves as physically more distinctive. The latter option can lead to the Elves being considered 'ugly' or unnatural-looking by many people.

Regarding Elvish culture, specifically the Dalish (and by extension, that of the Arlathan Elves as well, as the Dalish are obsessed with rediscovering / reconstructing their ancestors' culture and history), I think Bioware is struggling with one fundamental question: Should they use the established 'generic' clichés of how Elvish culture looks (LotR / Warhammer / D&D Elvish cultures) or try to develop a clear style for the Dalish and ancient Elven culture. In my view they have failed so far, neither adequately copying the generic cliché styles, nor developing a unique look.For instance, the Dunmer of the Elder Scrolls are a very succesful attempt (for a videogame franchise, that is) at creating Elves that are very distinctive and fairly unique. So, in their way, are D&D's Drow (other D&D Elves are more 'generic', though).
I think Ethereal and me are somewhat on the same wavelength here. Of course, the fact that he's Native American and I'm a historian/historical reenactor may have something to do with;)

To broadly summarise again, the DA Elves seem to be loosely based on a mix of:
1) Jews (ancient people, taken from their homeland as captives, re-establish freedom and a homeland in the wake of a religiously inspired revolt, are crushed again, scattered and living in ghettos, their ancient religion suppressed / persecuted)

2) Native Americans (in tune with nature, hunters)

3) Celts (in tune with nature cliché, accents, some names, tattoos)

4) Gypsies (outside mainstream society, travel around in wagons, objects of suspicion. The wagons changed from practical-looking but somewhat generic and ugly types to unpractical-looking ones with vaguely generic Elvish looks)

5) Tolkien Elves (ancient Elves were immortal and strongly mystically inclined, stylistic elements ripp..., er, borrowed from the LotR movies and art)

6) D&D Elves (generic looks of much clothing and armour, bigger ears, slimmer bodies. Somewhat reminiscent of D&D 3rd edition and later Elves).

In my view, the DA Elves are in terms of the lore regarding culture, society and history mostly based on 1 to 4 (with a bit of 5), but in the games borrow visually mostly from 5 and 6 (with a bit of 3). 1 to 4 is mostly conveyed through generally rather unexciting dialog and codex entries. 5 and 6 are clearly recognisable, but in my view are done in a mostly bland and uninspired manner. 

Expression of a distinctive culture can be done through a combination of several ways.Architecture is one. At first sight that seems difficult to do in the DA games, with the Dalish being nomads and the city Elves living in slums in human cities. However, this is not entirely true. The Dalish have their wagons, and the city Elves have a kind of centre around their Tree. The latter was done actually rather nicely in DA2. Too bad there were too many walk-through ueber-bland zombie Elves standing around it…
Too bad there are no distinctively Elvish ruins in DA:O and DA2...though this probably saved on modelling work<_<
In DA2 they replaced the rather big, bland but practical-looking wagons of DA:O with smaller, unpractical looking wagons which apparently were designed by somebody with a really, really serious fetish for flags and the color red:




I mean, what ARE these things? Fantasy carnival wagons? Oh, wait, I already know the answer…
Now here’s a look at some actual gypsy wagons, called vardos.











Well, maybe a bit too much colour for Ferelden:O

Point is, it would not have been too difficult to modify this tried and practical design, by mainly using a distinctive decorative style (plants, animals etc.), to turn them into practical-looking, distinctive Dalish wagons. But Bioware went from lumpy, bland but practical looking designs to some kind of carnival fashion accessory.
Next part: clothing (if I find the time)

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 29 janvier 2012 - 07:39 .

[Wulfram]

They're supposed to have flags which fly in the wind, resembling sails. That's why they're called landships.

They could do with looking a bit more substantial, though I'd guess there are practical difficulties to that if you're travelling through forests.

Modifié par Wulfram, 29 janvier 2012 - 07:41 .

[Das Tentakel]

Wulfram wrote...

They're supposed to have flags which fly in the wind. That's why they're called landships.

They could do with looking a bit more substantial, though I'd guess there are practical difficulties to that if you're travelling through forests.

Then here's another thing to ponder: without good roads or fairly solid, level terrain, wagons are useless. 
Great on the Plains or the Steppes, not so good in mountains, hills or forests. I am not a fan of total realism in fantasy, but there IS such a thing as suspension of disbelief .

I more or less assumed the Dalish would travel using established road systems, but that may have been my brain filling in the blanks:?

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 29 janvier 2012 - 07:44 .

[alex90c]

Filament wrote...

Some of the armor I've seen in ME3 does have some spiky bits.

To this extent?



I don't even know why there's something protruding out at the back of the boots, it's so pointless.

[Das Tentakel]

alex90c wrote...

Filament wrote...

Some of the armor I've seen in ME3 does have some spiky bits.

To this extent?



I don't even know why there's something protruding out at the back of the boots, it's so pointless.

There's probably chainmail underwear with spiky bits underneath that 

[Abispa]

Wulfram wrote...

They're supposed to have flags which fly in the wind, resembling sails. That's why they're called landships.

They could do with looking a bit more substantial, though I'd guess there are practical difficulties to that if you're travelling through forests.

Although they're not Elven, I have a problem with the SHIPS in DA2 far more than I do with the Aravels. Those are something that should look a LOT more substantial.

[Abispa]

alex90c wrote...

Filament wrote...

Some of the armor I've seen in ME3 does have some spiky bits.

To this extent?



I don't even know why there's something protruding out at the back of the boots, it's so pointless.

As silly as that armor may look to you, I do find it more "realistic" than what Red Sonja wears, or many of the sexy armor mods that are popular for the PC version. Not that I am complaining since I believe a user should be able to mod the game however s/he wishes.

[LPPrince]

Filament wrote...

Some of the armor I've seen in ME3 does have some spiky bits.

You're thinking of the Kingdoms of Amalur crossover item, "The Reckoner Knight Armor"

That has an excuse.

[Das Tentakel]

Das Tentakel wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

They're supposed to have flags which fly in the wind. That's why they're called landships.

They could do with looking a bit more substantial, though I'd guess there are practical difficulties to that if you're travelling through forests.

Then here's another thing to ponder: without good roads or fairly solid, level terrain, wagons are useless. 
Great on the Plains or the Steppes, not so good in mountains, hills or forests. I am not a fan of total realism in fantasy, but there IS such a thing as suspension of disbelief .

I more or less assumed the Dalish would travel using established road systems, but that may have been my brain filling in the blanks:?

Apart from the looks, some at Bioware may have been thinking of sandyachts (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_sailing#cite_note-0 , though I am a bit sceptical about some of the references <_<. But they were definitely used in my country - the Netherlands - in the 17th century, mostly for amusement)

Nice for level terrain with lots of wind (some deserts, beaches) but otherwise...

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 29 janvier 2012 - 08:05 .

[Wulfram]

Personally I seem to find spiky less annoying than huge shoulder pads, or exposed cleavage or midriff.

The lack of choice in end game armour is a little annoying though.

[Das Tentakel]

Abispa wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

They're supposed to have flags which fly in the wind, resembling sails. That's why they're called landships.

They could do with looking a bit more substantial, though I'd guess there are practical difficulties to that if you're travelling through forests.

Although they're not Elven, I have a problem with the SHIPS in DA2 far more than I do with the Aravels. Those are something that should look a LOT more substantial.

Yeah, the ship on which Hawke arrived in Kirkwall. It doesn't even try to look like something that could actually float and get from Ferelden to Kirkwall. But it's the same 'stylised realistic approach' that made glorified wheelbarrows with flags of the Dalish wagons. Or über-spiky armour.

[greekmonkey95]

go back to DARKspawn. Make them scary. BRING THE SCARY STUFF BACK! For example, Hespiths scary poem thing "first day they come and catch everyone..." please bring stuff like that back. Cutscenes like at the battle of Ostagar! Or the Archedemon tearing soldiers apart! BRING IT BACK BIOWARE! BRING IT BACK! 

Modifié par greekmonkey95, 30 janvier 2012 - 03:24 .

[SkittlesKat96]

DA 2's armor wasn't that special but it didn't hurt my eyes to look at and I liked how it had more variety than that same type few types of armor you saw in DA:O (including the one with the weird massive shoulder/robot pads.)

I think the armor is too spiky and angular in DA 2 though, maybe its just to protect from arrows or something?

Before the gun was popularized and people stopped wearing armor irl there were drawings and designs being made for DA 2-like armor which was very angular and spiky.

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 30 janvier 2012 - 06:14 .

[Das Tentakel]

SkittlesKat96 wrote...

DA 2's armor wasn't that special but it didn't hurt my eyes to look at and I liked how it had more variety than that same type few types of armor you saw in DA:O (including the one with the weird massive shoulder/robot pads.)

I think the armor is too spiky and angular in DA 2 though, maybe its just to protect from arrows or something?

Before the gun was popularized and people stopped wearing armor irl there were drawings and designs being made for DA 2-like armor which was very angular and spiky.

DA armour (and to be honest some look okay, even pretty decent) is an improvement on World of Warcraft's Christmas trees or the chainmail bikini, sure.
Though that is admittedly not a...very high standard to judge it by.



All ur spikes and X-mas lights belong to us...

BTW, in defense of chain mail bikinis, I would like to point out it's a perfect diversionary tactic...



Errrm, right. Back to the visual representation of Dalish culture.

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 30 janvier 2012 - 11:30 .

[LPPrince]

In future DA titles, they should throw just ONE set of chainmail bikini armor for ladies. For the lulz.

Elven chicks, I dunno. Darkspawn, God no.

[Das Tentakel]

LPPrince wrote...

In future DA titles, they should throw just ONE set of chainmail bikini armor for ladies. For the lulz.

For the lulz!

LPPrince wrote...

Elven chicks, I dunno. Darkspawn, God no.

Somebody already did something like that in another game...



And I don't mean the little fellow on the left.
Ewww, ewwww and triple ewwww. Quick, compensating sanity-restoring art to the rescue!

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 30 janvier 2012 - 02:36 .

[Das Tentakel]

LPPrince wrote...

In future DA titles, they should throw just ONE set of chainmail bikini armor for ladies. For the lulz.

Elven chicks, I dunno. Darkspawn, God no.

Okay, just one more 'for the lulz'.
I ran into this sketch, and I am still suffering from lack of oxygen because of it 

www.youtube.com/watch

And sincere apologies for getting off-topic 

[csfteeeer]

Tommyspa wrote...

The only things the da2 hurlocks need improved on are more rot/taint/blood and sharp teeth again, the creepy lurk/scuttle/run thing they do now is great. Never want to to see the Origins ones again. Never liked them at all, the first video I saw of DAO had scenes from Ostagar in it, saw the horde of bland zombies almost decided not to buy it, fortunately I decided against that. I started to like the darkspawn redesigns in Awakening for the disciples, those were rightly scary.

hehe, u funy.

Modifié par csfteeeer, 31 janvier 2012 - 01:03 .

[Tommyspa]

csfteeeer wrote...

Tommyspa wrote...

The only things the da2 hurlocks need improved on are more rot/taint/blood and sharp teeth again, the creepy lurk/scuttle/run thing they do now is great. Never want to to see the Origins ones again. Never liked them at all, the first video I saw of DAO had scenes from Ostagar in it, saw the horde of bland zombies almost decided not to buy it, fortunately I decided against that. I started to like the darkspawn redesigns in Awakening for the disciples, those were rightly scary.

hehe, u funy.

Do you have a point that isn't going to be my opinion vs yours?

[greekmonkey95]

I want Link armor! Legend of Zelda ftw!