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[TEWR]

Sorry I haven't been checking up on this thread that much. I've been sick for the last couple days so my BSN time is limited.

Anyway, to address Das Tentakel's post now, though it'll mostly be just me nodding my head

Das Tentakel wrote...


Regarding Elvish culture, specifically the Dalish (and by extension, that of the Arlathan Elves as well, as the Dalish are obsessed with rediscovering / reconstructing their ancestors' culture and history), I think Bioware is struggling with one fundamental question: Should they use the established 'generic' clichés of how Elvish culture looks (LotR / Warhammer / D&D Elvish cultures) or try to develop a clear style for the Dalish and ancient Elven culture. In my view they have failed so far, neither adequately copying the generic cliché styles, nor developing a unique look.For instance, the Dunmer of the Elder Scrolls are a very succesful attempt (for a videogame franchise, that is) at creating Elves that are very distinctive and fairly unique. So, in their way, are D&D's Drow (other D&D Elves are more 'generic', though).

Indeed. It does seem like Bioware doesn't really know what to do.

I think Ethereal and me are somewhat on the same wavelength here. Of course, the fact that he's Native American and I'm a historian/historical reenactor may have something to do with;)

Yup! Well, and I study history in my free time as well.

To broadly summarise again, the DA Elves seem to be loosely based on a mix of:
1) Jews (ancient people, taken from their homeland as captives, re-establish freedom and a homeland in the wake of a religiously inspired revolt, are crushed again, scattered and living in ghettos, their ancient religion suppressed / persecuted)

2) Native Americans (in tune with nature, hunters)

3) Celts (in tune with nature cliché, accents, some names, tattoos)

4) Gypsies (outside mainstream society, travel around in wagons, objects of suspicion. The wagons changed from practical-looking but somewhat generic and ugly types to unpractical-looking ones with vaguely generic Elvish looks)

5) Tolkien Elves (ancient Elves were immortal and strongly mystically inclined, stylistic elements ripp..., er, borrowed from the LotR movies and art)

6) D&D Elves (generic looks of much clothing and armour, bigger ears, slimmer bodies. Somewhat reminiscent of D&D 3rd edition and later Elves).

In my view, the DA Elves are in terms of the lore regarding culture, society and history mostly based on 1 to 4 (with a bit of 5), but in the games borrow visually mostly from 5 and 6 (with a bit of 3). 1 to 4 is mostly conveyed through generally rather unexciting dialog and codex entries. 5 and 6 are clearly recognisable, but in my view are done in a mostly bland and uninspired manner. 

Expression of a distinctive culture can be done through a combination of several ways.Architecture is one. At first sight that seems difficult to do in the DA games, with the Dalish being nomads and the city Elves living in slums in human cities. However, this is not entirely true. The Dalish have their wagons, and the city Elves have a kind of centre around their Tree. The latter was done actually rather nicely in DA2. Too bad there were too many walk-through ueber-bland zombie Elves standing around it…
Too bad there are no distinctively Elvish ruins in DA:O and DA2...though this probably saved on modelling work<_<

Yea I was kinda disappointed that the Elven ruins were architecturally Tevinter in origin with just a few Dalish relics scattered about.

I find that if the codexes are going to talk about the Dalish and portray them as a reflection of 1-4, it should be made evident in visual design as well.

In DA2 they replaced the rather big, bland but practical-looking wagons of DA:O with smaller, unpractical looking wagons which apparently were designed by somebody with a really, really serious fetish for flags and the color red:




I mean, what ARE these things? Fantasy carnival wagons? Oh, wait, I already know the answer…
Now here’s a look at some actual gypsy wagons, called vardos.

Well, to be fair they had to be redesigned because the Dalish were moving North -- as they said in DAO -- which would've required them going overseas. So these things look more like something that can sail on water then the previous design.

While not perfect, it makes more sense than the old Aravels magically going overseas. Especially when the codexes talked about the Aravels having sails that tower over trees.

*snippidy snip snip snip!*

Point is, it would not have been too difficult to modify this tried and practical design, by mainly using a distinctive decorative style (plants, animals etc.), to turn them into practical-looking, distinctive Dalish wagons. But Bioware went from lumpy, bland but practical looking designs to some kind of carnival fashion accessory.
Next part: clothing (if I find the time)

While I agree that the Aravels need more of a look all their own, I see the new design as a slight improvement over the old design simply because of the better adherence to the lore surrounding Aravels.

So there should be some work done on them to make them a bit bigger, but also look like wagon-like ships with their own unique look. Dalish designs of maybe hawks in flight moving to capture some prey, halla moving throughout a forest, etc.

[chunkyman]

I hope someone at Bioware has read this, because I think an artistic overhaul is needed for future DA games.

[TEWR]

I actually really want some devs to come in here and talk about this with us, as I feel it is important for DA to really stand out and they could discuss some things with us.

They could then give us more insight on how the Dalish live, and then we could be able to see that stuff in-game in visual design and how they act.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 31 janvier 2012 - 05:38 .

[Atakuma]

chunkyman wrote...

I hope someone at Bioware has read this, because I think an artistic overhaul is needed for future DA games.

They have already done that once, it would be foolish of them to do it again.

[chunkyman]

Atakuma wrote...
it would be foolish of them to do it again.

...Except that it's needed considering how negatively received some aspects of the artistic design are. 

[TEWR]

chunkyman wrote...

Atakuma wrote...
it would be foolish of them to do it again.

...Except that it's needed considering how negatively received some aspects of the artistic design are. 

I don't think an overhaul is needed. Some gradual or major tweaking would probably be better, but an overhaul would not be the answer.

Many people on here have said that they would hate it if Bioware did another overhaul.

[Das Tentakel]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

chunkyman wrote...

Atakuma wrote...
it would be foolish of them to do it again.

...Except that it's needed considering how negatively received some aspects of the artistic design are. 

I don't think an overhaul is needed. Some gradual or major tweaking would probably be better, but an overhaul would not be the answer.

Many people on here have said that they would hate it if Bioware did another overhaul.

That kind of depends. Gaider himself was suggesting that a reboot might be in order at some time, but those things really depend on the quality of execution. I don't think people hated the changes in DA2 per se, it was more that the specific changes were either felt to be unnecessary, ill-advised or badly executed.

Continuity is another though related problem, of course. Let's not beat about the bush, DA's world was created in a relatively short time by a team of writers. That means that the world is inevitably painted with a broad brush, is not particularly deep (apart from some details here and there) and runs into all kinds of problems trying to keep it cohesive and consistent. That ranges from the art direction to storytelling to lore. That's not a problem with games that are primarily about action, or with RPG's/action RPG's that have a strong baseline rooted in a particular historical period (high/late medieval Europe as with The Witcher), mythology/history (Greek mythology and history, see God of War and Titan Quest), a particular subgenre (space opera) or an already-developed setting.

I'm not really envying David Gaider, I guess. Without very, very strong direction, Thedas could easily become as convoluted a mess like Azeroth or Faerun. And that's often the prelude to a reboot of sorts (mostly of the disaster-that-sweeps-stuff-clean kind:crying:).

[Patchwork]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...



While I agree that the Aravels need more of a look all their own, I see the new design as a slight improvement over the old design simply because of the better adherence to the lore surrounding Aravels.

So there should be some work done on them to make them a bit bigger, but also look like wagon-like ships with their own unique look. Dalish designs of maybe hawks in flight moving to capture some prey, halla moving throughout a forest, etc.

My head canon is that the aravels were stripped down to their basics so they could be taken aboard a ship but there's nothing to say that the old design didn't have sails. While camped however it seems like a sensible idea not to advertise where they are so the sails were lowered/dismantled.

I like the old design because of the gypsy feel, they looked like they could be someone's home, and yeah more head canon here, based on gypsy culture when a couple married the clan built them their own aravel.

I also liked the blue laterns that were exclusive to the Dalish IIRC.

IMO the elves don't need another re-design or overhaul, that city elves have little culture fits just fine with lore for me. Elements of Dalish culture already exists in both games, DAO the camp looks unique, in DA2 some armour and robes are exclusive to elves like their physical design DAO and DA2 enviromentals need to be merged and built on not scrapped and done away with all together.

Modifié par Ser Bard, 02 février 2012 - 11:59 .

[craigdolphin]

I don't think BW will do another overhaul. I just wish they would. The first overhaul was unfortunate IMO.

[TEWR]

That kind of depends. Gaider himself was suggesting that a reboot might be in order at some time, but those things really depend on the quality of execution. I don't think people hated the changes in DA2 per se, it was more that the specific changes were either felt to be unnecessary, ill-advised or badly executed

Which Gaider quote was that? I've seen so many Gaider quotes and I think I know which one you're referring to, but I'm not certain.

And I agree that people don't necessarily hate the idea of change, but rather how the change is implemented and whether some changes were necessary to begin with.

Ser Bard wrote...

IMO the elves don't need another re-design or overhaul, that city elves have little culture fits just fine with lore for me.

Of course. I've never said that Alienage Elves need more Elven culture shown. This thread specifically deals with the Dalish and the lack of enough of a visual representation of Elven culture in their clans.

I'm not even asking for a redesign or overhaul. I'm asking for a better visualization. That's not the same thing. One wants change to be made. The other wants something to surface because it's been dormant for too long.

Elements of Dalish culture already exists in both games, DAO the camp looks unique, in DA2 some armour and robes are exclusive to elves like their physical design DAO and DA2 enviromentals need to be merged and built on not scrapped and done away with all together.

I realize this is your opinion, but this is something I disagree with. The culture is barely there, and they obviously know enough to make a fairly good case for a unique culture to be present.

That armor you're talking about? It's not all that unique. The one that the Dalish are wearing is just a palette swap of the Ancient Elven Armor set. While the Ancient Elven Armor set is unique, this is hardly enough.

Let's examine what we have for the Dragon Age Elves and try and make a case for what should and shouldn't be done to help make a visualization of the culture:

1) Vallaslin: Blood writing. Facial tattoos. This helps to make the Dalish stand out.



But, as far as a unique look and style goes, they also need unique armor to do this. Their armor should be distinctively Dalish, with emblems adorned all over significant to Elven culture. They should also have some armor and clothing that utilizes the fur of creatures of the wild.


2) Halla: a unique animal specific to Dalish society. However, that we see them doesn't mean much. The Dalish Halla Keeper in Zathrian's clan says that they are more their friends then their mounts like horses are to humans and brontos are to Dwarves. So why don't we see more interaction between the halla keepers and the halla, or between them and the children of the clans?

3) Aravels. I've already gone over them.

4) Weapons and Armor. In my OP, I went over the armor in a very basic fashion that I think conveyed the point well enough. And I touched upon it again in the Vallaslin portion of this post. I think the weapons are fine as is, unless the description of the Elven weaponry says they have something that the visual depiction doesn't show. If not, then the unique look of the weapons is fine.

5) Dalish woodworking: We need to see this in action more. I mean, just look at the Halla Statuette.



That is just beautiful craftsmanship. I want to see more of this in the clan encampments. There should be some more wooden carvings that look elegant and distinctively Elven like this.

6) Stories: We should hear the Hahrens telling more stories. And this should be stuff we don't need a cutscene to hear. We should hear more stories then the ones we know. Maybe a tale of Ghilannain (sp?) that we the players haven't heard before? Paivel offered to tell a story about her, but we don't get to hear it. Or maybe we could hear the Tale of Iloren while walking around the camp.

7) Clan practices: We should see more praying to their gods. Even if their gods have abandoned them -- or so they believe -- we should still hear them praying to the gods. Faith is about more than just getting a callback from the god you pray to. Merrill prayed to Mythal, despite the fact that the gods have abandoned the Elves. She still prayed, just so that Mythal might hear her prayer and watch over her. We should see more of this. Additionally, assuming the Dalish do spiritual dancing we should see their own variant of this.

Finally, if there's one thing I'd love to see simply for how hilarious it'd be, it would be to see "high" elves. Not high elves, high elves.

But that wouldn't really make them more Elven and it doesn't have to happen. It'd just be hilarious for me.



EDIT: If Bioware can't even make a clan of Elves feel distinctively Elven, I shudder to think what an Arlathvenn would look and feel like.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 05 février 2012 - 10:20 .

[Ealos]

Has there ever been any official comment on the removal of the Elven weaponry from the game (dar'misaan, dar'misu etc)? I remember being surprised not to see them, especially when so much effort was being taken to make the elves more distinctive appearance wise.

[Heimdall]

Not quite the topic but in regards to the new elven design, I'm really hoping they modify it so the elves resemble humans with pointy ears a little bit more. Not that the current design is bad on principle, but it tends to be very hit or miss. Merril is adorable, lots of the others aren't. They also look ridiculous wielding two handed weaponry, but that's neither here nor there.

Anyway.

Weapons) I felt these missing in DA 2. More to the point I think they need to create unique designs for elven weaponry. In DA:O the same skins for elven weaponry were often recycled, which really sabotaged the feeling of the dalish hanging onto their old ways.

Aravels) I honestly don't know what I want bioware to do with these. I liked the DA2 design slightly better than the DA:O design except that the things looked so tiny I could hardly imagine more than two elves could fit in one.

Armor) As noted before by Ethereal, the armor is lacking in unique designs. I don't really know what to add, but I'm really hoping Bioware takes note of the further need to differentiate their elves from their humans in more than just physical appearance.

Specialization) I really think they need to bring back something like the keeper specialization, something to help give us the sense that the dalish are holding onto more of their past than a handful of traditions and folklore, though we could use more of those too.

[Madmoe77]

For those commenting on armor, ships and the Dalish caravans-need only look to Assassin's Creed for how to properly detail such things. I own every Assassin's Creed; as an artist and student of art history the attention to detail in that game is phenomenal. The armor really had a functionality and splendor unmatched in any RPG I have ever played.

As for the look of elves and to respect the thread starter, you have a great point about the teams ignoring the lore and bastardizing their own product. I am not completely sure what would cause a company to lose confidence in their product so quickly. Sometimes when developing characters or races in this case you suffer from the abundance of styles available. I personally like the direction they went in DA2 as far trying to have distinction but the models technically suffered for it. Fix that and they should be great for most.

Darkspawn are darkspawn. I thin we all lose credibility arguing about magical decay. Which seems to be the idea that taint has to have some trans-formative effect to begin with. In my honest opinion this will continue to happen with Dragon Age until a certain lead writer separates himself to focus on lore and allow DA to consult him for a more concentrated canon. Look at Game of Thrones for example. Continuity suffers when your team is always making it up as they go along. Instead of there being a concentration on translation, it seems to be a hurry to make something up, make that work, run into a problem and then rework that until it works. Point proven in the designs you have carefully mentioned in this thread.

[Das Tentakel]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Yea I was kinda disappointed that the Elven ruins were architecturally Tevinter in origin with just a few Dalish relics scattered about.

Well, DA:O has only three architectural styles.
Tevinter (whose surface remains are clearly heavily based on the Gondorian/Arnorian and Grey Harbor Elf architectural styles from Jackson’s LotR trilogy), contemporary Ferelden (which is generic medievalish European, plus some spiky fantasy tower stuff) and Dwarven (generic fantasy Dwarven style, as established by LotR art and movies, as well as Warhammer/Warcraft). Tevinter interiors are bland and generic, though sometimes they are fairly evocative, due to a combination of lighting, music etc.

It all has a strong Neverwinter vibe, in the sense that visually that game also excelled in the bland and generic.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

(Regarding aravels)

Well, to be fair they had to be redesigned because the Dalish were moving North - as they said in DAO - which would've required them going overseas. So these things look more like something that can sail on water then the previous design.

While not perfect, it makes more sense than the old Aravels magically going
overseas. Especially when the codexes talked about the Aravels having sails
that tower over trees.

I really hope they aren’t intended to cross a sea, even a narrow one, because the DA2 aravels don’t look like something that can float. They look like theatrical props, and they were more or less used as such in the Felicia Day live-acting video series (DA Redemption)

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

*snippidy snip snip snip!*

While I agree that the Aravels need more of a look all their own, I see the new design as aslight improvement over the old design simply because of the better adherence to the lore surrounding Aravels.

So there should be some work done on them to make them a bit bigger, but also look like wagon-like ships with their own unique look. Dalish designs of maybe hawks in flight moving to capture some prey, halla moving throughout a forest, etc.

The DA2 team played around with various ‘artsy’ approaches, including the use of Stalinist Gothic architecture, ‘theatrical minimalism’ (‘we’re influenced by Kurosawa’s ‘Throne of Blood’, so that means we’re edgy and intellectually respectable'. Okay, sorry for that snarky remark at the end) and art deco. Apparently, they also played around with the theatrical use of props that symbolize the actual thing, rather than looking like anything remotely functional. In other words, I see the aravels as similar to stylized ship models in a theatrical play or an opera, rather than a ‘realistic’ copy.
The ships in DA2 also strike me as ‘theatrical props symbolizing the real thing’.

Personally, I don’t think this was a wise approach; there are certainly some games where you can do this kind of stuff (Limbo, Journey etc.), but fantasy RPG’s, at some level, have to feel somewhat ‘real’. Once again, it’s an immersion thing.

I re-read the Codex entry in DA:O, and there clearly was some confusion on my part. Aravels are clearly envisaged as wagons, the ‘landships’ and ‘sails’ refer to human perceptions of how Dalish wagons look in the distance. They are not actual ‘landships’ like the sandyachts I mentioned earlier.

As a sidenote, proper ‘landships’ were once a story element in SF novels like Alan Dean Foster’s ‘Icerigger’ trilogy and Philip José Farmer’s ‘The Green Odyssey’ and some other books.

Here’s the cover of the Spanish edition of ‘The Green Odyssey’, called ‘La Rotta Verde’:



Or look at this ‘Martian sandship’ (not sure, but I think this is from Ray Bradbury's 'Martian Chronicles'):



Of course, landships in these SF settings made much more sense than Dalish wagons travelling through rough terrain. They invariably were used on vast level plains with plenty of wind. Not sure how wheel-based vehicles are going to travel though difficult terrain on Thedas.
Either they use artificial or ‘natural’ roads – in which case they’ll bump into humans all the time – or you have to envisage ‘it’s a kind of magic’.

The entire gypsy/tinker/Jenische analogy quickly breaks down anyway, as these wanderers, while apart from mainstream settled society, had a lifestyle that was nevertheless intertwined with it. Both sides (the settled population and the ‘people of the road’) had something the other needed, whether that was labor or various goods and services. That’s also where the constant tension between the two came from: the two were useful to each other, but had contrasting and partly incompatible lifestyles and cultures.

I sort of miss that subtle but profound and fundamental tension between the Dalish and the settled, mainly human, populations in the DA universe.
The mutual hostility in DA seems to run too deep, and it is almost as if neither side has any use for the other.
It also doesn’t make sense; if the Dalish kill human hunters, trappers or just unlucky wanderers that stumble upon them, as is shown and implied in DA, it would not take long before the human governments to take drastic military action against a people that kills their subjects and block access to valuable resources within their own territory.

But I digress again...

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 06 février 2012 - 01:59 .

[RazorrX]

The issue I have with the darkspawn is they are way to clean looking. They should be dirty and covered with sores, etc. The flesh is supposed to look like scar tissue, and they are supposed to be darker I thought. Pale white skin is okay I guess since they are always underground, but they should be way dirtier, and have a 'foulness' to them.

Elves are always described in the books, etc as being beautiful, graceful, etc. We are told that the reason they are used as slaves/servents is because of the beauty and grace. Kelder kills them because they are too perfect and beautiful. Katriel and Fiona were both beautiful. DA2 elves are neither beautiful nor graceful. They are hunchbacked and gangly. Tweaking the existing look could still yield a graceful and beautiful looking elf race. There were a few who had very nice faces (the servants at the party in MOTA for example). Less long necks, thicken them up a tad more vs the super anorexic look they now have and stop the hunching.

For the society - City Elves have pretty much almost lost any real racial culture. They keep close ties to each other but they can barely remember most of the rest. It was awesome to see how the Alienage responded to the Keeper when she came in DA2. The reverence was apparent.

I would love to see dalish armor and culture be given more treatment. I hated most of the armor in DA2 to be honest and end up using the grey warden mod for my character as it is the best looking armor in the game IMO. http://dragonage.nex...ile.php?id=3017
Before that mod I always just edited the looks of my armor to resemble the kirkwall squire chest piece.

Elven armor having a distinct and non spikey look would be awesome.

[Das Tentakel]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ser Bard wrote...

IMO the elves don't need another re-design or overhaul, that city elves have little culture fits just fine with lore for me.

Elements of Dalish culture already exists in both games, DAO the camp looks unique, in DA2 some armour and robes are exclusive to elves like their physical design DAO and DA2 enviromentals need to be merged and built on not scrapped and done away with all together.

I realize this is your opinion, but this is something I disagree with. The culture is barely there, and they obviously know enough to make a fairly good case for a unique culture to be present.

That armor you're talking about? It's not all that unique. The one that the Dalish are wearing is just a palette swap of the Ancient Elven Armor set. While the Ancient Elven Armor set is unique, this is hardly enough.

I would also like to point out that it’s basically a slightly and rather bland ‘Elvish’ variant of plate armor. Painting it green and giving it some leaf-like decoration doesn’t stand out in the way, say, LotR Elven armor or reconstructed 4th century BC La Tene 'Celtic' armour does. It’s a matter of clearly signaling cultural identity, and a lot of the Elven stuff fails to do that.

LotR Elven armor:





Reconstructed La Tene 'Celtic' armor (plus chariot):

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Let's examine what we have for the Dragon Age Elves and try and make a case for what should and shouldn't be done to help make a visualization of the culture:

1) Vallaslin: Blood writing. Facial tattoos. This helps to make the Dalish stand out.

Unfortunately, by and large I am not impressed with the use of tattoos in DA. All fantasy videogames (and not just them) use tattoos, but it is usually in the form of rather generic tattoos using simple lines and curves. They are almost never distinctive like they are in the real world (past and present). One of the few exceptions are some of the tattoos in the Age of Conan MMO. But to be honest, this complaint of mine applies to a lot of games.

Some real world examples:

Scythian, Iron Age (c. 5th century BC, Altai region):





(drawing of the above tattoo)



Maori:

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
But, as far as a unique look and style goes, they also need unique armor to do this. Their armor should be distinctively Dalish, with emblems adorned all over significant to Elven culture. They should also have some armor and clothing that utilizes the fur of creatures of the wild.

I was kind of thinking along the lines of northern Eurasian hunting-gathering-herding nomads, like the Koryak:



Clothing like this could be easily combined with another, more distinctively ‘Dalish’ kind of decorative style – if they ever develop one.

Of course, you could add colour, and a sense of the Dalish trading for dyes, textiles etc with the surrounding human populations, as with these Sami girls from Sweden. Hey, you even can use pseudo-Celtic tartan style woollen textiles^_^. Not to mention COLOUR. Add animal-style jewellery and presto!



Of course, not very generic fantasy Elvish, but I do not suggest copying * a particular real-world style *, but cherrypicking and blending it until you get something that feels cohesive; a pastiche that actually ‘works’ and seems to fit together.

Here’s an attempt by the late Angus McBride to combine archaeological finds, relevant snippets of history and folk costumes from north-central Eurasia (E. Europe, Siberia, northern Central Asia) into something that looks plausible and cohesive (Scyhto-Sarmatian female warrior, 4th century BC):



It’s not something I suggest Bioware should copy (we’re way from the Dalish and generic fantasy here), but it’s an example of how and what to combine. And some stuff could be used, such as fashion accessories that stand out (visually striking sidearms like daggers and shortswords, mirrors) or the stylized deer decorations.

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

2) Halla: a unique animal specific to Dalish society. However, that we see them doesn't mean much. The Dalish Halla Keeper in Zathrian's clan says that they are more their friends then their mounts like horses are to humans and brontos are to Dwarves. So why don't we see more interaction between the halla keepers and the halla, or between them and the children of the clans?

*snip*

5) Dalish woodworking: We need to see this in action more. I mean, just look at the Halla Statuette.



That is just beautiful craftsmanship. I want to see more of this in the clan encampments. There should be some more wooden carvings that look elegant and distinctively Elven like this.

Here I have to differ. In principle, I agree that the existence of such items is very welcome. And it’s a nice statue. So no objection in principle, and I’m all for it. But I dislike this particular example.

This goes back to a basic problem I have with the art direction in DA2. In an attempt to give the DA universe a more distinctive look, Bioware’s artists adopted stuff from early-to-mid 20th century western styles in art and design. The ‘brutalistic’ architecture of totalitarian Germany and the Stalinist USSR influenced the look of Kirkwall (you might arguably call Kirkwall an example of ‘fantasy Stalinist Gothic’), and art deco was the basis for much of the decoration, including the Halla statuette.

Look at this, for instance:



(well, now you know what style inspired the reliefs in Kirkwall – if you did not know that already)

Concerning that deer:



Bronze deer, circa 1930-1935. Ahem, you will see the similarity. To be honest, I am not sure Bioware copied this specific one; similar statues are quite common in my perception.

My biggest gripe with this copying is that, to me (and a few others), it feels way too modern. The moment I saw the picture of the deer statue, it screamed ‘art deco’ to me. I have little to no background in art history, but art deco is commonly encountered in European cities and antiquarian shops, as well as in homes. It is also still in common use as a style for crafting wooden ‘souvenirs’ in the forms of animals etc.

Art deco has been used successfully in movies (for instance the Batman movies, Chronicles of Riddick etc.) and games (Korriban in KotOR), but it WORKS there because it is used either as historical background flavor in a ‘present-day’ movie (as decorations of older skyscrapers from the 1920s-1940s, for instance) or to depict a forceful, archaic style in a SCIENCE FICTION setting. Something from our world’s recent past transported to a futuristic setting automatically gets connotations of being ‘ incredibly old’: Something that was once shiny and new in the recent past, already old-fashioned in our time, but that will, by extension, have accumulated a long, long history in the distant future.

In a fantasy setting, specifically the medievalish/ancient kind of fantasy settings that compose over 99% of fantasy worlds, this does not work all that well. It’s way too jarring to see early to mid 20th century stuff there. Some people are aware of this at a subconscious level: They may have seen the same art and design on a frequent basis in their home city or in movies and comics using a modern or SF setting. Others recognize it for what it is and are consciously annoyed by it. And some are lucky (in a way) and don’t notice it all, or they do recognize it and appreciate the departure from standard fantasy.

Personally, I think it was a terrible decision. You don’t mix visual elements from LotR, D&D, Batman, the Stalinist USSR, minimalist theatre/cinema and dozens of other sources haphazardly and expect to create a ‘distinctive and cohesive’ visual style. Certainly not in 18 months or less.

Well, having ranted about this: Art deco by itself is not a ‘wrong’ influence. A lot of it was highly historical/mythological in theme, and the style itself is really a mish-mash; sometimes it is close enough to older styles, or generic / realistic enough to blend imperceptibly with other influences in a fantasy look that feels right. In the end, it’s all about knowing which, when and how you use the different influences in creating the visual look of the world.

As an example of art deco that looks very distinctive but also ‘fantasy-compatible’, look at some of the ‘traditional’ art produced in Indonesia. This style actually emerged in modern times, when native artists came into contact with the art deco style during Dutch rule there in the decades before World War II.





You know, if I saw something like the above in Merrill’s home, I would immediately get a vision of Elvish ritual debauchery and spiritual drug use involving halla. Heh heh heh 

Here’s some other examples from western countries:

Stylised winged springbok deer, London:

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

6) Stories: We should hear the Hahrens telling more stories. And this should be stuff we don't need a cutscene to hear. We should hear more stories then the ones we know. Maybe a tale of Ghilannain (sp?) that we the players haven't heard before? Paivel offered to tell a story about her, but we don't get to hear it. Or maybe we could hear the Tale of Iloren while walking around the camp.

7) Clan practices: We should see more praying to their gods. Even if their gods have abandoned them -- or so they believe -- we should still hear them praying to the gods. Faith is about more than just getting a callback from the god you pray to. Merrill prayed to Mythal, despite the fact that the gods have abandoned the Elves. She still prayed, just so that Mythal might hear her prayer and watch over her. We should see more of this. Additionally, assuming the Dalish do spiritual dancing we should see their own variant of this.

I am actually in favor of cut scenes, provided they add to the flavor. The way stories were told in DA:O was very flat, with static characters and not particularly inspired storytelling/voice acting. The Dalish camp is still one of my least favorite locations because of this.

It’s all about how you use them. I can imagine stories being ‘ told’ and cultures ‘ presented’ by NPC’s actually talking, dancing, singing and praying within the game, rather than separate cutscenes. If done well, I’m all for it.
But simultaneously, if done well a cutscene can bring things across more powerfully: they can address the player directly, rather than letting him/her observe things.

Two examples:
A introductory cutscene from Guild Wars 2, quickly and beautifully setting out what’s going on, what has to be done, and what’s special about the location and its history:

vimeo.com/25735980

Another example from ‘The Bard’s Tale (2004)’. Not a great game, but it has brilliantly funny writing and did a great job of musical cut scenes that are very atmospheric. DA did this once, but somewhat awkwardly with Leliana’s song.

www.youtube.com/watch

www.youtube.com/watch

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 06 février 2012 - 06:23 .

[TEWR]

Still reading your post Das Tentakel, but now I'm sad that Bioware just used a copypasta of an already existing statue, with slightly longer antlers

That brings us right back to square one. How Bioware hasn't gone very far in visualizing Elven culture.

I mean, I wouldn't really mind it being modern looking if it wasn't a replica of something that's already been made in the world.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 07 février 2012 - 02:10 .

[Das Tentakel]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Still reading your post Das Tentakel, but now I'm sad that Bioware just used a copypasta of an already existing statue, with slightly longer antlers

That brings us right back to square one. How Bioware hasn't gone very far in visualizing Elven culture.

I mean, I wouldn't really mind it being modern looking if it wasn't a replica of something that's already been made in the world.

Sorry to have made you sad, and I hope I didn't get some Bioware artist into trouble.
But it could have been worse. Much, much worse  Imagine something like this in Merrill's home...



Well, at least we wouldn't have been able to complain about lack of colour 

[TEWR]

That thing creeps me out more than the little donkey statuette I have in my room.

I am actually in favor of cut scenes, provided they add to the flavor. The way stories were told in DA:O was very flat, with static characters and not particularly inspired storytelling/voice acting. The Dalish camp is still one of my least favorite locations because of this.

Well, I just meant that they shouldn't be restricted to only happen in cutscenes, as that cuts out some of the livelihood of the clans after you've heard the story.

This was the problem with Sarel. After he tells his story -- which as you said was very flat -- everyone just sits there doing..... nothing.

So even had the storytelling not been flat, I would've found the clan to still have felt dull and lifeless if there isn't any interaction or any storytelling between the members.

I'm not against cutscenes themselves, but I'd rather it not just happen in only cutscenes and then have nothing happen afterwards.

It’s all about how you use them. I can imagine stories being ‘ told’ and cultures ‘ presented’ by NPC’s actually talking, dancing, singing and praying within the game, rather than separate cutscenes. If done well, I’m all for it.
But simultaneously, if done well a cutscene can bring things across more powerfully: they can address the player directly, rather than letting him/her observe things.

I think it's safe to say Bioware should strive to accomplish both. It's one thing to hear a story. But to actually feel it, to be a part of it, to witness it being told as if it was just happening....

that's a thing of beauty right there.

Ideally, the stories would be told with some actual acting and some actual feeling in them. Even if it's outside of a cutscene, I would love to see the clan members actually.... well... acting.

Some of the plays I saw back at my old high school were great because they actually made you feel like you weren't watching a bunch of actors playing roles, but a bunch of characters in the minds and bodies of fellow students.

If that makes any sense.

Also, the Nuckelavee and Guild Wars 2 videos are really great.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 08 février 2012 - 01:32 .

[craigdolphin]

Bards tale was awesome. And I usually hate musicals with a terrible fury.

It's bad luck to be you.... Hysterical Gameplay was a bit sad but the atmosphere was brilliant.

[Das Tentakel]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

That thing creeps me out more than the little donkey statuette I have in my room.

Glad you liked it

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I think it's safe to say Bioware should strive to accomplish both. It's one thing to hear a story. But to actually feel it, to be a part of it, to witness it being told as if it was just happening....

that's a thing of beauty right there.

Ideally, the stories would be told with some actual acting and some actual feeling in them. Even if it's outside of a cutscene, I would love to see the clan members actually.... well... acting.

Just that I get it straight:
Do you mean the narration of stories 'that already happened', as in the Guild Wars 2 video (and in fact, the 'Nuckelavee' song from The Bard's Tale as well)?

And as we are talking about that Dalish storyteller, a variant on this, the telling of a story that has already happened, but with the way in which it is told also giving information about the storyteller's culture and society. What if that Dalish storyteller had told the history of his people, or particular legends, in a manner somewhat similar to this?

www.youtube.com/watch

(Benjamin Bagby performing 'Beowulf'; this is based on his and others' research. It's an interpretation and may not be everybody's cup of tea, but the principle stands: if you use a storyteller, tell the story in a dramatic, vivid way that 'speaks of the culture'. And yes, you have to adapt this to modern audiences, but keep it interesting and flavourful. Relatively flat voiced dialog with static characters is not the way.)

Or do you mean the narration of stories as they unfold?

There's a difference between the two. The first can be done very well with cutscenes (but also in a more 'passive' way, with the player stumbling upon ruins, corpses, the debris of a fight, battle or siege, wall reliefs telling a story etc.). The second would play out in the form of a PC/NPC/environment action/reaction chain, with the character either actively participating or directly observing things happening.

@Craigdolphin:
Yeah, 'It's bad luck to be you' (www.youtube.com/watch) is a hilarious comment on being 'The Chosen One' 

[TEWR]

Just that I get it straight:
Do you mean the narration of stories 'that already happened', as in the Guild Wars 2 video (and in fact, the 'Nuckelavee' song from The Bard's Tale as well)?

And as we are talking about that Dalish storyteller, a variant on this, the telling of a story that has already happened, but with the way in which it is told also giving information about the storyteller's culture and society. What if that Dalish storyteller had told the history of his people, or particular legends, in a manner somewhat similar to this?

www.youtube.com/watch

(Benjamin Bagby performing 'Beowulf'; this is based on his and others' research. It's an interpretation and may not be everybody's cup of tea, but the principle stands: if you use a storyteller, tell the story in a dramatic, vivid way that 'speaks of the culture'. And yes, you have to adapt this to modern audiences, but keep it interesting and flavourful. Relatively flat voiced dialog with static characters is not the way.)

Or do you mean the narration of stories as they unfold?

There's a difference between the two. The first can be done very well with cutscenes (but also in a more 'passive' way, with the player stumbling upon ruins, corpses, the debris of a fight, battle or siege, wall reliefs telling a story etc.). The second would play out in the form of a PC/NPC/environment action/reaction chain, with the character either actively participating or directly observing things happening.

Primarily the first, but I wouldn't mind some of the second. Are there any examples of the second?

[Das Tentakel]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Just that I get it straight:
Do you mean the narration of stories 'that already happened', as in the Guild Wars 2 video (and in fact, the 'Nuckelavee' song from The Bard's Tale as well)?

*snip*

Or do you mean the narration of stories as they unfold?

*snip*

Primarily the first, but I wouldn't mind some of the second. Are there any examples of the second?

Well, there's a lot of debate about storytelling-through-gameplay, and while I find it a fascinating subject, I don't know that much about it, except some stuff I read or watched on the Internet. Ppeople who are interested in the subject can just google 'storytelling / gameplay / videogames', and quite a few interesting articles and some videos will pop up.

The way I understand it, it's 'storytelling' through gameplay / that does not interrupt the flow of the gameplay. So no 'static dialog cutscenes' in the way Bioware uses them (and which Bethesda abandoned after Oblivion). 
Off the top of my head, in Skyrim you can trigger 'stories' that then play out through gameplay. Two examples are a quest that starts when you run into a pair of Redguards having a discussion with a Whiterun city guard. They approach you with a request to seek out a Redguard traitor in the city, as they aren't allowed in and your character looks capable. From beginning to end, it's run through the regular gameplay. Of course, it does work with scripted events, but this kind of thing, well done well, feels a lot more natural than when it's driven by static cutscenes.

It's nothing new though, stories or story developments experienced through gameplay using scripted but in-gameplay events have been used for quite some time. I have fond memories of such things in Half-Life and Freespace (a space combat game). The effectiveness has a lot to do with how 'natural' it feels within the game and its setting. 
Static dialog scenes can feel very gameflow- and immersion-breaking; sometimes they also break the game's 'rules', for instance when things happen that are impossible during normal gameplay.
Example: The scene in DA2 in the Chantry where Isabella kills the villain-of-the-moment's henchwoman with a single knifethrow. Very cinematic, but try doing that in the game. Cool scene, but major disconnect moment for me.

But, back to Elves. Might be an idea to summarise the discussion so far.

[TEWR]

But, back to Elves. Might be an idea to summarise the discussion so far.

Would you be okay doing that? As I'm going to be extremely busy today and won't be able to devote enough time to compile a thorough summary of the discussion thus far.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 février 2012 - 06:34 .

[Das Tentakel]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

But, back to Elves. Might be an idea to summarise the discussion so far.

Would you be okay doing that? As I'm going to be extremely busy today and won't be able to devote enough time to compile a thorough summary of the discussion thus far.

SUMMARY OF THE THREAD SO FAR

Darkspawn
Some posters hate the new look and want DA:O Darkspawn back; others think parts of it are fine, but want a partial return to DA:O and some refinements in looks (more dirty/diseased, armor that has less spikes but more practical-looking kick-assitude). Very few are 100% fine with the DA2 Darkspawn. Broad trend: Bring back at least part of the DA:O look, evolve in the direction of looking more seriously mean and scary.

Dalish Elves
As was to be expected, a lot of the debate centered on DA2 Elvish physiology.

Three main opinions:

• DA2 Elves look fine and are distinctive (a minority view);
• DA2 Elves are anorexic sticklike figures with hunchbacked postures, ugly faces and wrong proportions, bring back attractive-looking humans with pointy ears! (LotR, Amalur, the better DA:O Elves, Amalur Elves). What’s wrong with pointy-eared beautiful humans? Elf warrior maidens in Chainmail bikinis for the lulz!
• The visually better-rendered DA2 Elves are fine and look distinctive. Now use this as a basis for improving the look of the other Elves. No hunchbacked postures please.

Broad trend: None, it’s up to Bioware to either tweak the DA2 Elves’ look in such a way that even the naysayers will consider them beautiful, or to revert to a ‘beautiful pointy-eared human’ model. In the latter case, the visual presentation of Elvish/Dalish culture will become even more crucial to make them distinctive from other fantasy Elves.

Regarding Dalish culture
There is a widely shared perception among posters (with a few dissenters who like DA Elves and their ‘culture’ just fine) that there is very little noticeable expression of Dalish culture within the DA games. They lack a distinctive identity, being neither full-fledged generic fantasy Elves (of whatever variety), nor a more unique kind of Elves (a la Dunmer, Drow etc.).

• There are almost no expressions of culture in the form of stories, song, dance, ritual or speaking mannerism (prayer, curses). Not in cutscenes, not in gameplay.
• A lack of distinctive ‘Elvish’ clothing and armour. Much of it is composed of recycled models, or is shared with other races.
• Very static, lifeless nature of the Dalish encampments (a common problem in the DA games).
• The cutscenes themselves are very static, mainly dialog and are sometimes delivered rather flatly; not much emotion there.
• There is a lack of distinctive Elvish architecture (pre-Tevinter conquest).
• In general: Bioware's artists don't seem to have a strong artistic and stylistic 'handle' on the Dalish and the Elves in general. Hence a very uneven, incomplete and inconsistent in-game depiction of the Elves in the DA games. Things are added, changed or dropped (aravels, disappearance of Elvish weapons) with little sense of direction (generic? unique? LotR, D&D or Native American?), consistency or even effort (DA2 halla statuette almost 100% copied from 1930s ‘art deco’ deer statuette).

There seems to be a broad (though not universal) consensus among posters that the depiction of Dalish culture can and must be improved in future DA games. Through clothes, armour and expressions of culture (singing, dancing, rituals, storytelling), both in-game and through better use of cutscenes.

Not much debate so far on what specifically to do beyond the OP’s suggestions. There is difference of opinion on whether Elvish clothing and armour should be more generic but recognizably Elvish (See LotR movies, D&D Elves, Amalur) or more unique, showing ‘Celtic’ or ‘Native American’ traits in materials and decoration.

Modifié par Das Tentakel, 12 février 2012 - 03:21 .