440 réponses à ce sujet

[tetrisblock4x1]

Just replayed through ME1... and I don't get that choice at all, it just seems completely ****ing dumb for the alliance fleet, with nothing bigger than frigates, to let that massive space station which probably made up the other half of Citadel defense is on to be blown up. I know that having the council go down with it is a very renegade thing to do, but Bioware tried to convince me, against all of my senses and the intuition I've picked up from my time paying Real Time Strategy games, that helping the citadel fleet would actually make it harder to take down sovereign. I shouldn't have to explain the advantages of surprise reinforcements and the numbers advantage, and the fact that the alliance hadn't brought anything bigger than a frigate while the citadel had capital ships and the ascension.

In summary, I sincerely doubt that the alliance holding back could have had any advantages, and I'm sure if it weren't for video game logic that shepard would have been rightfully court martialed and executed if he hadn't let the alliance help.

[Descy_]

Well Im sure that having the council alive in ME3 is going to help alot so...

[luzburg]

i always save the destiny acencion.
and in me3 is probably real dificult to convince the other species to join you if you killed the original counsil

[mybudgee]

The council won't help much. But that ship could take out a reaper or two

[Lotion Soronarr]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Just replayed through ME1... and I don't get that choice at all, it just seems completely ****ing dumb for the alliance fleet, with nothing bigger than frigates, to let that massive space station which probably made up the other half of Citadel defense is on to be blown up. I know that having the council go down with it is a very renegade thing to do, but Bioware tried to convince me, against all of my senses and the intuition I've picked up from my time paying Real Time Strategy games, that helping the citadel fleet would actually make it harder to take down sovereign. I shouldn't have to explain the advantages of surprise reinforcements and the numbers advantage, and the fact that the alliance hadn't brought anything bigger than a frigate while the citadel had capital ships and the ascension.

In summary, I sincerely doubt that the alliance holding back could have had any advantages, and I'm sure if it weren't for video game logic that shepard would have been rightfully court martialed and executed if he hadn't let the alliance help.

You're not helping the citadel Fleet in it's entirety, you're saving the DA. Just the DA.
that's the command. "Save the Destiiny Ascnesion". Not "Save the citadel fleet". There's still geth out there and hte Citadel fleet is still fighting.

Also, all the warships in the world wont' help you if you can't stop Sovereign in time.

Also, the 5th fleet had cruisers AND DN's.


So no, you don't get extra ships when you go for the "save option"..aside from the crippled DA. And you lost precious time and in-tact ships.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 25 janvier 2012 - 05:57 .

[izmirtheastarach]

mybudgee wrote...

The council won't help much. But that ship could take out a reaper or two

This is a great point that I had never thought of. I wonder how many points the Destiny Ascension is worth as a war asset in the game. I always save the council anyways, but for the more pragmatic among you this is someting to consider.

[tetrisblock4x1]

And they weren't attacking sovereign. Presumably because cruisers travel speed is as slow as **** and would be too slow to get in on the action. The citadel cruisers should be closer, but with video game logic been what it is who knows...

[nelly21]

The problem is that the Destiny Ascencion was trying to escape the fight, not participate in it. The main concern is the reaper. Even if the D.A. could damage Sovereign (which is unconfirmed) it would not participate in the battle. As you said, the element of surprise is key and taking advantage of the distracted geth fleet would open a window of lessened resistance directly to the primary objective which is stopping Sovereign from transporting the reapers directly to the station.

If you are Commander Sheperd, you know that unless Sovereign is destroyed in the next few minutes, the Citadel relay will open and the reaper fleet will come poring in. Why would you tip off the enemy and engage in battle before you have an opening to Sovereign?

Tactically it makes sense. Now if your Sheperd (like my canon Shep) is mainly focused on maintaining galactic stability, then the importance of saving the council is increased. But if Shep's main focus is giving yourself the best chance to win the battle, you absolutely take advantage of the geth's focus on the D.A. and try to knife through straight to Sovereign at the most oportune time.

[AlanC9]

Note that it's not certain the Alliance didn't bring the big ships. According to the Codex they would have been engaging from a distance where we wouldn't see them. Though the way the battle is animated has very little to do with the lore, so you can also make the case that Bio would have animated them if they had been there.

I'm also not certain your RTS experience has taught you the right lessons, tetrisblock4x1. ITRW keeping an unengaged reserve is a very wise practice depending on the circumstance. You need to play serious wargames if you want to see this sort of thing simulated, though. RTSs are organized around the only command and control factor being the player's actions, so this doesn't make sense for those games.

Modifié par AlanC9, 25 janvier 2012 - 06:06 .

[CannonO]

I save it. I think in the end, the common citizens need to know that their leaders were important and there for them, regardless of race. A human letting the alien council perish won't go over well when asking aliens for help in ME3.

[tetrisblock4x1]

The only geth around were attacking the DA... right outside of the closed citadel.

Don't know what directors cut version of the game you guys were playing.

Modifié par tetrisblock4x1, 25 janvier 2012 - 06:19 .

[McAllyster]

In my absolute paragon playthrough... I let the Council die.

At this moment I see two options:
- focus fire to Sovereign
- or risk the entire galaxy to save the council.

For my Shepard this is a hard decision - but he simply cannot afford to risk the galaxy.

[nelly21]

CannonLars wrote...

I save it. I think in the end, the common citizens need to know that their leaders were important and there for them, regardless of race. A human letting the alien council perish won't go over well when asking aliens for help in ME3.

But you don't really have time to think about that. As I mentioned, my canon Shep is all about galactic stability and so he saved the D.A. But he does it because he believes that an organized response is imperative to battling the reapers if they fail to stop Sovereign. However, if your only concern is giving yourself the best chance to destroy Sovereign, sacrificing the D.A. is the correct decision.

[AlanC9]

All the geth you saw != all the geth. You didn't see their dreadnaughts either. Assuming geth ship classes are analogous to Citadel classes, which isn't actually certain.

But yeah, Bio made it so that any choice in the battle works the same. Kind of hard to avoid, since if trying to save the D.A. results in a Reaper win there's no real choice. I suppose the choice could have led to different losses for the Alliance fleet, which Anderson could have told Shepard about in the endgame

[nelly21]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

The only geth around were attacking the DA... right outside of the closed citadel.

Correct. They were focused on their target and are caught entirely by surprise when the Alliance charges in the second the Citadel opens.

[Poison_Berrie]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

And they weren't attacking sovereign. Presumably because cruisers travel speed is as slow as **** and would be too slow to get in on the action. The citadel cruisers should be closer, but with video game logic been what it is who knows...

Actually logically engagement distances could be as much as 0,5 to 1 lightsecond, considering the relative velocity of Mass Effect powered mass drivers. 

Getting close in space combat would still be several thousand of kilometers distance.

Luc0s wrote...

I couldn't have said it better myself. Of course the Paragon goody-two-shoes are not going to listen to reason, so this comment will fall on deaf ears among the Paragon players here. But any realistic player who reads this will realize that you're completely right.

Look you think the best option is to focus on the Reaper, that's well and good.
But stop insulting people who don't take that decision.

[AlanC9]

Poison_Berrie wrote...

Actually logically engagement distances could be as much as 0,5 to 1 lightsecond, considering the relative velocity of Mass Effect powered mass drivers. 

Getting close in space combat would still be several thousand of kilometers distance.

Codex time:

Ship mobility dominates space combat] along the bow with the opposing vessel's broadside. Battles typically play out as artillery duels fought at ranges measured in thousands of kilometers, though assault through defended mass relays often occur at "knife fight" ranges as close as a few dozen kilometers. 

Note that "knife fight" range is a few dozen kilometers.

The cinematics from the battle are worthless when trying to understand what's actually going on. Unless you want to just say that the Codex info is all wrong and the cinematics are real.

Modifié par AlanC9, 25 janvier 2012 - 06:29 .

[Labrev]

By the time I played ME1 I'd played ME2 a few times so I'll never be sure how I'd handle that decision without the foreknowledge I had. I don't feel like I metagamed the decision, but again, I'll never know.

So anyways, I picked save the council. I didn't feel like "don't throw away reinforcements" was a good enough reason because the geth had the whole Citadel under siege, there was no guarantee the fleet makes it through without tangling with the geth and taking casualties either way. It actually just sounded like an excuse by that squadmate for me to kill them as a petty grudge, as they'd just argued before.

In that case, I rather take casualties trying to save the Ascention AND get to the Reaper than just to get to the Reaper. It's really just as flukey that the Alliance maintained as strong a fleet in the end from going the Renegade path as the successful outcome of the Paragon path, IMO. The kicker being that they flew right by the Ascention even when ordered not to save them. You think you'd try to avoid where the geth were concentrated if the call is to hold back. So...???

And Paragon Shepard (I hate saying "Paragon Shepard" so much) saying "save the Ascention, NO MATTER THE COST!!!" is just typical trite writing on BW's part to make the situation all suspenseful. Obviously that was not my thinking, but the writers just love their cliches. "Not just any Reaper... a HUMAN Reaper!" It's little different than how Shepard has another set of dialogue to deliver before deciding to keep/destroy base if he doesn't take the second renegade response to TIM. "Shepard! We need this base!" They always try to scare you out of taking the paragon choice, more reason why I saw through the empty threats when I got there at the end of ME1.

[bleetman]

There's military justifications for going either way, I'd say. As I mentioned in another thread, my own personal reasoning the times I opted to save it wasn't so much to actually save the ship or the council itself, but to flank and quickly obliterate the geth fleet that arrived with Sovereign whilst it was pre-occupied. The alliance fleet would've been slaughtered if it ended up caught between Sovereign and the geth. That said, I do tend to abandon it to focus on Sovereign. But you can headcanon it into making military sense, I'd say.

Of course;

"Commander... They closed the channel."
"..."

...is the best scene in the entire damn game.

[AlanC9]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

And Paragon Shepard (I hate saying "Paragon Shepard" so much) saying "save the Ascention, NO MATTER THE COST!!!" is just typical trite writing on BW's part to make the situation all suspenseful.

This. So much this. It's not only terrible writing, it's extremely annoying since the paraphrase doesn't give you any clue that Shepard's going to say that. The only time I ever picked that line, even my paraShep wasn't fool enough to think that the Council was worth saving at any cost. But there she was, saying it.

Modifié par AlanC9, 25 janvier 2012 - 06:32 .

[CannonO]

nelly21 wrote...

CannonLars wrote...

I save it. I think in the end, the common citizens need to know that their leaders were important and there for them, regardless of race. A human letting the alien council perish won't go over well when asking aliens for help in ME3.

But you don't really have time to think about that. As I mentioned, my canon Shep is all about galactic stability and so he saved the D.A. But he does it because he believes that an organized response is imperative to battling the reapers if they fail to stop Sovereign. However, if your only concern is giving yourself the best chance to destroy Sovereign, sacrificing the D.A. is the correct decision.

Well at the time, I still thought it was the best decision, regardless of ME3. I was looking from the perspective of protecting the relationships and cooperative progress that would be lost if a human sacrificed the council.