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[Aimi]

AlexXIV wrote...

They could have made the neutral choice the best. For example saving the Council could have led to the reaper invasion. It would give the decision more depth tbh because it is not the obvious white knight choice, but the necessary. The whole deal of ME is that Shepard keeps saying we will sacrifice everything to stop the Reapers. But obviously when it comes to the council decision Shep says 'Save the Council at all costs' when he/she should have said 'Take Sovereign down at all costs.'

The real problem with the choice is that it's framed and executed so poorly. Your squadmates tell you that the choice between saving the Ascension and not is effectively a choice between timing and mass: we need to hit Sovereign now, or we need to hit Sovereign with everything. Militarily, as has been noted in this thread, both choices are valid. 

But from a metagaming point of view, such a dichotomy makes zero sense because it requires one option to turn out badly. If the 'timing' option is the right one to go for, then choosing for 'mass' means you have this somewhat more powerful fleet that's standing there with its d*** hanging out with a 'vote for me' sticker on the end when the Reapers zoom through the relay and kill everything. And if the 'mass' option is the right one, the human fleet ignores the DA, charges in, and gets defeated in detail and crushed, and the Reapers zoom through the relay and kill everything.

Obviously we can't have a choice that turns out like that. So instead, the two options are completely and utterly reversed between their presentation and their ultimate resolution. Opting for 'mass' means that the allied fleets actually suffer more casualties, ignoring the Ascension; your attacking force against Sovereign is slightly weaker than it otherwise would be, but you're still able to win. (And, nonsensically, Shepard makes a weird remark about saving the Council no matter the cost when the justification given for taking that option previously had nothing whatsoever to do with the Council.) And opting for 'timing' in fact involves having your fleet just loiter while the DA is destroyed (not go after Sovereign immediately with as speed as they can muster), but magically, all of the geth that were attacking it disappear so the consequence of defeat in detail does not materialize...and then you fly over and kill Sovereign.

With such a disconnect between choices and results, I don't think that you can seriously attempt to roleplay the ending of ME1 beyond the first run-through. Which is a shame.

They only marginally improved the ending choice of ME2, in which, at least, the choice means exactly what you think it means. It's just that the justification process is screwed up again. Oh well.

EDIT: Oh, hey, they censored that. Huh.

Modifié par daqs, 26 janvier 2012 - 02:34 .

[naledgeborn]

atheelogos wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

If you're going for the highest numbers of lives saved, sacrificing 8 (X 300 personnel each) Alliance Cruisers for the Destiny Ascension (10,000 personnel) is the right call. The Council being on board is an added bonus.

It boils down to whether or not you're willing to sacrifice humans for non-humans. Which I am, when it's called for as in the case of 2,400 vs 10,000.

No that is not the end all be all. I could frame differently.

There was no way we could have known that saving the Destiny Ascension would work. Saving our strength to fight Sov was the right call because if we won we would have saved trillions of lives instead of risking all those people for 3 politicians, or 10,003 if you want to add the crew to the equation.

So we have 
1000000000000+ lives vs 10,003 lives. The right answer should go without saying.

It's about winning the battle not the war. If you can win the greater war while winning the smaller battle go for it (which you can't), but you're better off focusing on adapting to the win smaller present battle.You're thinking too "big picture" when Sovereign is right there on your door step. Sacrificing the 8 Cruisers would realistically buy the DA enough time for a counter attack on Sovereign. 

Modifié par naledgeborn, 26 janvier 2012 - 02:36 .

[AlexXIV]

Yes, it could have been done alot better. This is basically why I sometimes don't think too much. I know what they want me to do and just do it. Because thinking would only make sense if the whole situation made sense.

[darkiddd]

AlexXIV wrote...

darkiddd wrote...
yeah look at what I wrote on page 5. Saving the council or concentrating on sovereign are both logical decisions having in mind that sovereign is opening a relay to dark space. But the galaxy doesn't know what sovereign is or what he is doing so defending the first choice to the public opinion is easy and strategically logical, the second decision in front of the public opinion is a strategic failure.

Well I am too genre savy to actually think the morale choice would turn out badly. Metagaming back and forth, in my first playthrough I always play nice. So in Bioware games I usually do right from first playthrough on. I think they are missing an opportunity though. They could have made the neutral choice the best. For example saving the Council could have led to the reaper invasion. It would give the decision more depth tbh because it is not the obvious white knight choice, but the necessary. The whole deal of ME is that Shepard keeps saying we will sacrifice everything to stop the Reapers. But obviously when it comes to the council decision Shep says 'Save the Council at all costs' when he/she should have said 'Take Sovereign down at all costs.'

And that's why I'm so pissed when I choose the "save the council" option to destroy the geth and shepard says "we have to save the ascension no matter the cost". I choose to destroy the geth to be in a better position against sovereign not to save the council. It would have been much better if Shepard had said something like "we have to take down the geth before facing sovereign if we want to secure victory against it" they could have even put more dialog options that expressed your conclusion and those dialogs would lead to one of the two cinematics depending on which you choose, but at least you express your reasoning. And not that awful phrase product of bad writing that makes shepard look like an idiot. (Save the council or avoing galatic extintion hmm....)
And I don't think one decision should have meant the reapers return, mainly because you can't have two completely opposite big outcomes and make a sequel that adjusts to those outcomes. It's impossible. But as I said I think Bioware could have put some more dialog options that expressed your thoughts.

[Last Vizard]

mybudgee wrote...

The council won't help much. But that ship could take out a reaper or two

... OR it could just be a big target and be destroyed/disabled immediately, mobility is key and that ship didn't appear to be very fast.

I "let them die" as punishment for their crimes against the citadel species, hope I can judge the new council too for sticking their heads in the sand, trilians will die during the Reapers invasion and those deaths are on the council.

Fighter bombers equiped with Thanax cannons would be the best weapons against the Reapers, quess which species has the most Carriers?

[Aimi]

Last Vizard wrote...

... OR it could just be a big target and be destroyed/disabled immediately, mobility is key and that ship didn't appear to be very fast.

You only see it in one cutscene and it is going pretty fast. Which makes one wonder how it was disabled at all. Did the Council want to stick around and play admiral?

[DDG4005]

Luc0s wrote...

DDG3595 wrote...

I always save the Ascension.  It's not about the the geth or just Sovereign in my opinion but what humanity is willing to do as part of the galactic community.  Many of the other races already view humans as bullies; allowing the council to die just confirms that.

No it doesn't. It confirms that humans are capable of understanding priorities. The council is not your priority, Sovereign is. 

Focussing on Sovereign is the smart thing to do. It shows that humans are capable of sacrificing the few to save the many. It shows that we are rational and smart. It shows what we are not willing to risk th fate of an entire galaxy for a council that can simply be replaced.

I disagree.  Sacrificing the council, in my opinion, demonstrates humanity's selfishness and willingness to do whatever is necessary to advance the status of humans at the expense of other races.  It might seem like the logical decision to commit all to fight Sovereign but it doesn't have to mean the death of the council which oversees the affairs of billions of lives.

[atheelogos]

naledgeborn wrote...

atheelogos wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

If you're going for the highest numbers of lives saved, sacrificing 8 (X 300 personnel each) Alliance Cruisers for the Destiny Ascension (10,000 personnel) is the right call. The Council being on board is an added bonus.

It boils down to whether or not you're willing to sacrifice humans for non-humans. Which I am, when it's called for as in the case of 2,400 vs 10,000.

No that is not the end all be all. I could frame differently.

There was no way we could have known that saving the Destiny Ascension would work. Saving our strength to fight Sov was the right call because if we won we would have saved trillions of lives instead of risking all those people for 3 politicians, or 10,003 if you want to add the crew to the equation.

So we have 
1000000000000+ lives vs 10,003 lives. The right answer should go without saying.

It's about winning the battle not the war. If you can win the greater war while winning the smaller battle go for it (which you can't), but you're better off focusing on adapting to the win smaller present battle.You're thinking too "big picture" when Sovereign is right there on your door step. Sacrificing the 8 Cruisers would realistically buy the DA enough time for a counter attack on Sovereign. 

"
It's about winning the battle not the war." Indeed, but if you want to win any battles you must first make sure you don't lose the entire war before a battle can be won yes?

What do I mean by that?
If Sovereign had the time he would have opened the relay and all the Reapers would have come through. They would have taken the Cidadel locked down the Relay network and begun the cycle all over again. Trillions of lives would have been lost before any battle could be won.

That's how I'm weighing it. Risk all that happening or sacrafice 10,003 people to ensure that it doesn't.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Izhalezan wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Sovereign alread WAS in and attached to the citadel, assuming control, when you get to the choice.

Vigils file STALLED sovereign. It didn't stop it. It was nothing more than a buffer - Vigil explicitly warns you about that. Sarens work was done.

Then why bother rebirthing Saren?
Why did Mass effect happen at all when it seems Soverign could have simply flown in on any old day and latched on and done it all himself?
There wouldn't have been such a large Citadel force to fight him since they weren't on lockdown and aware that the station was being targetted for assault by a enemy fleet.

It couldn't. It needed Saren to open the relay (so it can come) and it needed him to open/close the Citadel arms. Also to transfer control over.
and it needed the Geth to distract the citadel fleet.

Vigils file corrupted the security protocol, so Sovereign had to fight the Citadel security systems.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Poison_Berrie wrote...
1) That really depends on the numbers. If the Geth fleet can spare some ships to harass the human fleet (the number of ships around the DA is no small force) while also keeping the Citadel forces occupied, that would actually give them an opening on your flank.

Manouvering in space. Learn about it.

not only is it not possible for the geth ships to turn around and accelerate fast enough to effectively flank/intercept (delta V), but turning towards teh 5th fleet means turnign away from teh Citadel fleet. Which means the Citadel fleet gets nice, free shots at their rear wihtout taking return fire.

2) With the Geth, by reducing their numbers their job gets easier and the Geth certainly have a harder time flanking you. It might even free some ships up to aid you.

You loose fresh ships and get damaged ones. And loose time. Not a good trade-off

3) I actually doubt it's completely dead in the water. Since Sovreign is a stationary target there is no need to account for him out manevuering your shots, effectively increasing your weapons range.
That said it could be possible that they choose not to engage considering their damage and cargo, so I'll give you that. 

You fail to account that Sovereign is within the Citadel. Can the DA even take a shot from it's current position?
Those massive wards/arms effectively block the line of fire.

[Lotion Soronarr]

[quote]Nikitn wrote...
[qutoe]
Fight the Citadel fleet.
Turing towards the aliance fleet means turnign their reaer to the Citadel forces and that = death.

As I said before - newtonian motion. You can't easily disengage, you can't easily change direction.
[/quote]

Nonsense, the geth were fighting the entire citadel fleet, not just the DA. After destroying the DA the dozen or so geth ships fighting it would attack the human fleet and would become a thorn in the side. Besides the disadvantages are minimal - sacrefice a few small crafts to save the DA? who cares
[/quote]

Geth were fighting the entire citadel fleet - but you only focus on killing the few geth attacking the DA.

And no, it's not nonsense. It's the basics of movement in space using newtonian motion.

And yes, the disadvantage is great. Several small craft are a big prioce to pay when those craft are fresh and undamaged, and you get a dead weight that is of no use in combat.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Barquiel wrote...
There's a twitter message from Mac Walters and it said the following: "Sovereign was focusing a great deal of energy controlling Saren directly, like a puppet. His death made Sovereign vulnerable."

If Saren's work was done...why did Sovereign resurrect him and make itself vulnerable to the attacks of the alliance fleet?

I don't know.

Maybe he wanted to remove Vigils file from the system physical to speed up the process?
Maybe he just wnated to kill Sheppard?

Or maybe the devs wanted one more boss fight.

[ParagonForLife]

honestly the D.A main gun should be able to take out a reaper in a single shot not to mention that the D.A takes more damage then sovereign does I mean the entire battle of the citadel the D.A is taking hits while Sovereign gets attacked for not even a min before dying so iam say D.A>Reaper and saying it takes alot of power to control saren is a cop out by that logic Harbringer has endless energy controling Collectors Thousands of light years away while Saren and Sovereign where like 500 feet away...

Modifié par ParagonForLife, 26 janvier 2012 - 08:08 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Icemix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Icemix wrote...
This. At the point when you have to make the choice, Saren is presumed dead, Shepard has full control of the CItadel and it comes down to keeping the fleet back so you don't waste any ships fighting the Geth and thus increasing the chance of killing Sovereign, or saving the DA, the most powerful ship among the Citadel races ( almost as much fire power as the entire Asari fleet combined ), with a crew of 10000 and the Council onboard, but losing some ships in the process.

No. The underlined is false.
Shep has only temporary control. Sovereign in the process of taking it back.


Gezze, dont' any of you people read the dialogue?????

False, Sovereign needs someone at the master control unit of the Citadel in our case Saren, but he is interrupted by Shepard and is unable to give Sovereign the control over the Citadel. At the moment when you have to make the choice Shepard has the control over the Citadel and Sovereign is a sitting duck only relying on the husk Saren to finish the job but you make the choice before you realize that.
Looks like someone hasn't been paying attention.

No, you are wrong.
Read what Vigis said. Take note of what he said his file does. He LITERALY sez it will buy you some time and grant Shep TEMPORARY control.
"moments" to use the exact word Vigil used.

OR are you saing vigil has no idea what his own file is doing?

Sovereign was already attached to the Citadel for minutes before Shep even walks into the room. What was Saren doing all that time?

seriously......

[ParagonForLife]

honestly the D.A is the most powerful ship in the galaxy it takes hits from dozen of geth ships for several mins while Sovereign doesnt even last 1 min vs half a dozen human ships

[Lotion Soronarr]

A Golden Dragon wrote...
Look at how many people lost their lives fighting against ONE Reaper.  Humanity can not fight this war on it's own, as many wish it (not just humans, I might add), especially not if we actually want a dream of a chance of winning.

Having allies is mandantory.  Having the councillors alive makes getting them easier.

I don't think it really matters.
If the reapers come, no sane race would fightthe malone. And if the reapers come, the government will realise why Shepard made the choice he did.

Honestly, the death of the council is overblown in importance. The galaxy moves on, like it always has.

[PlumPaul93]

If there was an actual consequence for saving them, I'd probably have "focused" on Sovereign.

[Lotion Soronarr]

daqs wrote...
The real problem with the choice is that it's framed and executed so poorly. Your squadmates tell you that the choice between saving the Ascension and not is effectively a choice between timing and mass: we need to hit Sovereign now, or we need to hit Sovereign with everything. Militarily, as has been noted in this thread, both choices are valid.

The weird thing is that you AREN'T hitting it with everything.

Saving the DA you loose combat-capable craft, the DA is crippled and the rest of the Citadel fleet is still busy fighting the geth.

Sheps poistion agaisnt Sovereign isn't any better....

[Lotion Soronarr]

naledgeborn wrote...

atheelogos wrote...
So we have 
1000000000000+ lives vs 10,003 lives. The right answer should go without saying.

It's about winning the battle not the war. If you can win the greater war while winning the smaller battle go for it (which you can't), but you're better off focusing on adapting to the win smaller present battle.You're thinking too "big picture" when Sovereign is right there on your door step. Sacrificing the 8 Cruisers would realistically buy the DA enough time for a counter attack on Sovereign.

The battle of the Citadel was a battle that would have decided the war then and there.
Which makes your argument moot.
If you loose this battle, you loose the war. Period.

[Icemix]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Icemix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Icemix wrote...
This. At the point when you have to make the choice, Saren is presumed dead, Shepard has full control of the CItadel and it comes down to keeping the fleet back so you don't waste any ships fighting the Geth and thus increasing the chance of killing Sovereign, or saving the DA, the most powerful ship among the Citadel races ( almost as much fire power as the entire Asari fleet combined ), with a crew of 10000 and the Council onboard, but losing some ships in the process.

No. The underlined is false.
Shep has only temporary control. Sovereign in the process of taking it back.


Gezze, dont' any of you people read the dialogue?????

False, Sovereign needs someone at the master control unit of the Citadel in our case Saren, but he is interrupted by Shepard and is unable to give Sovereign the control over the Citadel. At the moment when you have to make the choice Shepard has the control over the Citadel and Sovereign is a sitting duck only relying on the husk Saren to finish the job but you make the choice before you realize that.
Looks like someone hasn't been paying attention.

No, you are wrong.
Read what Vigis said. Take note of what he said his file does. He LITERALY sez it will buy you some time and grant Shep TEMPORARY control.
"moments" to use the exact word Vigil used.

OR are you saing vigil has no idea what his own file is doing?

Sovereign was already attached to the Citadel for minutes before Shep even walks into the room. What was Saren doing all that time?

seriously......

Seriously dude, it seems like you are the one not reading anything. Saren's mission is to use the Conduit, bypass CItadel security and give full control to Sovereign via the master control unit, BUT Shepard gets there just in time to interupt him, thus Sovereign never had any access to the Citadel. That's why he uses so much energy to control Saren, in a last-ditch effort to actually gain control of the Citadel. The race againts time ends when you get to Saren, after that it doesn't matter how long the fight outside takes. Please check your ****ing facts before you start shoving your stupid opinion down people's throats.

[ParagonForLife]

the D.A is more powerful then a reaper....as it takes hits from dozen of geth ships for several mins while sovereign dies from like 10 ships in less then what 40 seconds?

[Lotion Soronarr]

ParagonForLife wrote...

honestly the D.A is the most powerful ship in the galaxy it takes hits from dozen of geth ships for several mins while Sovereign doesnt even last 1 min vs half a dozen human ships

hahahaha:lol::lol::lol::lol:

...yeah....no.<_<

[Lotion Soronarr]

Icemix wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
No, you are wrong.
Read what Vigis said. Take note of what he said his file does. He LITERALY sez it will buy you some time and grant Shep TEMPORARY control.
"moments" to use the exact word Vigil used.

OR are you saing vigil has no idea what his own file is doing?

Sovereign was already attached to the Citadel for minutes before Shep even walks into the room. What was Saren doing all that time?

seriously......

Seriously dude, it seems like you are the one not reading anything. Saren's mission is to use the Conduit, bypass CItadel security and give full control to Sovereign via the master control unit, BUT Shepard gets there just in time to interupt him, thus Sovereign never had any access to the Citadel. That's why he uses so much energy to control Saren, in a last-ditch effort to actually gain control of the Citadel. The race againts time ends when you get to Saren, after that it doesn't matter how long the fight outside takes. Please check your ****ing facts before you start shoving your stupid opinion down people's throats.

I see it's useless to debate this with you. You ignore the game, the text, the dialogue.
Vigils and Sarens lines apparently mean nothing to you.
Shepard uses Vigils data file - which, if Sovereign can't take control any other way would be useless.
Saren clearly states "in a few moments, Sovereign will have compelte control" - he already transfered the controls

The irony of you askign me to check the facts is staggering. Learn to read. Learn to reason.

[Someone With Mass]

atheelogos wrote...
"
It's about winning the battle not the war." Indeed, but if you want to win any battles you must first make sure you don't lose the entire war before a battle can be won yes?

What do I mean by that?
If Sovereign had the time he would have opened the relay and all the Reapers would have come through. They would have taken the Cidadel locked down the Relay network and begun the cycle all over again. Trillions of lives would have been lost before any battle could be won.

That's how I'm weighing it. Risk all that happening or sacrafice 10,003 people to ensure that it doesn't.

You're not really ensuring anything when you're sacrificing that crew. Sovereign could have wiped the floor with those Alliance ships, and he nearly did.

[Confused-Shepard]

I hope the meaning behind the choice is that we saved the Destiny Acension & her crew as opposed to just the Council. The captain of the ship who must be fairly high ranking must have gained tons of respect for humans and Shepard in general.

I hope there is a point in Mass Effect 3 where the Council itself refuses to say send the Destiny Ascension in defense of Earth but the Captain basically calls them out saying all the politicians are a bunch of spineless cowards and she would gladly return the favor of being saved in Mass Effect 1.

Basically the whole; Military types are cool & honorable while the politicians are EVIL! thing Bioware has going on.
There is also general Septimus Oraka of the Turians who Shep can choose to help. 

Modifié par Confused-Shepard, 26 janvier 2012 - 08:50 .