440 réponses à ce sujet

[angry_peon]

The council does not help because the Terminus Systems are hostile towards the Citadel Alliance.
Interfering there would likely cause a war, from what I remember. Also does the human council do anything different than saying "Sorry Shep?"

It is not a solid argument for not saving the DA anyway, because why would Shepard presume that the new council would be made up by humans? A new council with the same races would likely be similar to the old one anyway.
I'm sorry, but the "getting rid of the council"-reasoning for letting the DA die is (as opposed to the tactical approach, where both choices make sense imo) beyond stupid. And naive.
Human (or any other) politicians where and will always be bound by the same political rules. They can't just go into a neutral/hostile zone when they want to, as well as they can't put the whole Citadel Space in war mode for several years, over the words (that there are more Reapers out there, and approaching the galaxy) of one man, who was dead the past two years.

[Captain_Obvious_au]

I'm not going through 14 pages of thread, but I like to save the DA, not the council. As Ash says, its main gun can rip through the barriers of any ship in the Alliance fleet. The Alliance takes casualties anyway, but to preserve an asset like the DA I feel is worth it in the fight against the Reapers.

[Aimi]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also, no - smaller, faster ships have the advantage in close range - it's in the codex.

Weapons travel so fast that unless you'r distance is measured in hunderds of kilometers you're not gonna dodge. Of course, the difference is that Sovereigs wepons are in it's "arms" so is more effective at clsoe rangethan any other DN..

Quit making a fool of yourself...

If space combat in the game and space combat in the codex bore any relation to one another, you might have something there. But, uh, they don't, ergo you don't.

[Last Vizard]

Varhjhin wrote...

The council does not help because the Terminus Systems are hostile towards the Citadel Alliance.
Interfering there would likely cause a war, from what I remember. Also does the human council do anything different than saying "Sorry Shep?"

It is not a solid argument for not saving the DA anyway, because why would Shepard presume that the new council would be made up by humans? A new council with the same races would likely be similar to the old one anyway.
I'm sorry, but the "getting rid of the council"-reasoning for letting the DA die is (as opposed to the tactical approach, where both choices make sense imo) beyond stupid. And naive.
Human (or any other) politicians where and will always be bound by the same political rules. They can't just go into a neutral/hostile zone when they want to, as well as they can't put the whole Citadel Space in war mode for several years, over the words (that there are more Reapers out there, and approaching the galaxy) of one man, who was dead the past two years.

Council doesn't believe the Reapers are coming though, yes these colonies are in the terminus however Humanity is on the council and yet we aren't backed up by the other species...   ME universe isn't peace and love, if you read the history about how the species treat each other then you'll realise they are just the same as us.

Actually if the citadel was in war mode supporting Humanity and the Reapers show up... well look at this we are pretty much geared up for galactic war anyway.  I "let them die" because the council is useless and the DA IMO will just be a large target when the Reapers show up.

Carriers will be the only things that will help during Sheps search for the deus ex machina weapon that will stop the Reapers

[angry_peon]

Yes, we are also not backed up when the council is human, so?
Perhaps the council does not WANT to believe the Reapers are coming. Thought of that? Just assume for a moment ME would be real. Try to think, of the consequences for the galaxy when the council goes into full war mode over several years. Every species producing as many warships as they can. And then there are NO Reapers coming. Mass panics, economic disaster, stability and balance totally lost (some species can produce much larger fleets than others), a war with the Terminus systems... yeah, you get the picture.
On the other hand there is this one human, who dreamed of a galactic invasion. Sure there was one Reaper, but that one was defeated, and two years passed without any sign of Reaper invasion.
It is a very realistic, and ironically human, thing they assumed everything will work out just fine as it is.

Modifié par Varhjhin, 27 janvier 2012 - 10:49 .

[Haasth]

Anyone here remember what Paragon Shepard says about the matter in the interview? Makes it sound like the obvious better choice casualty wise. 

Something about a ship having a crew of around 300, then he lists a couple of ships, while the DA had over 10.000.
In the end, you saved more lives and the council. 

[Lotion Soronarr]

daqs wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Also, no - smaller, faster ships have the advantage in close range - it's in the codex.

Weapons travel so fast that unless you'r distance is measured in hunderds of kilometers you're not gonna dodge. Of course, the difference is that Sovereigs wepons are in it's "arms" so is more effective at clsoe rangethan any other DN..

Quit making a fool of yourself...

If space combat in the game and space combat in the codex bore any relation to one another, you might have something there. But, uh, they don't, ergo you don't.

But they do. It's mentioend in the game, it's seen in the game (The DA weak in close combat)
And codex >> game.

The combat we saw in the game was all knife-fight (distances reduced for cinematic effect).

But my point still stands.

What's your next move? Will you try to defy the very concept of reason if it doesn't fit with your views?

[tetrisblock4x1]

The citadel council were very understanding, and I don't think they'd have to be politicians to be skeptical of Shepards claims. Their theory of Saren manipulating Shepard was a solid one, and I haven't been hit in the head nearly enough times for causing mass panic over a potential Reaper invasion seem like a good idea. People just don't like the council because they're a bit mean to Shepard, and that's good enough for the average BSN user with their sensitive feelings and frail egos in need of the good old player character = the chosen one!!! style of writing.

Modifié par tetrisblock4x1, 27 janvier 2012 - 11:07 .

[RiouHotaru]

People seem to forget that, at the time you make that decision? Sovereign has ceased being an immediate threat. The whole reason he needed Saren was because he couldn't use the master control and the Keepers weren't responding.

Saren closes the arms, but dies/is killed in the process. Before Sovereign can gain control, Shepard uses Vigil's program to lock him out. At that point, Sovereign has (for the moment) ceased being an instant threat. And it's THEN that you make the decision.

Therefore, choosing to save the DA isn't such a bad idea. There's no guarantee the Fleet will be able to kill Sovereign either way, and the loss of a few ships likely won't make a difference (if the Citadel fleet was already having issues, you think the Alliance will be any MORE effective?) Also, do people forget that morale is an important aspect to any conflict.

Saving the DA serves as a huge boost in morale that could actually make the difference.

Besides, immediately after you make the decision, Sovereign hijacks Saren's corpse, which proves that he couldn't open the station, and had to do it himself to finish the job. So really, saving the DA isn't as "foolish" as Renegades make it out to be.

[Poison_Berrie]

Last Vizard wrote...
... we are talking about a profesional military making these things... not Russia the codex says fighters can be equiped with the thanix cannons and I'd hazard a statement that a swarm of fighters have a better chance at taking down Reapers than a few large and easy to hit Destroyers/Cruisers/Dreadnaughts...

Firing two volleys with a Thanix Cannon attached to a fighter would probably cook the pilot. 
A fighter might be a smaller target but it can take even less of a punishment like other ships can. Point defense lasers are going to have an easy time picking them off.

PS. they don't have to be manned, don't know why any ships are controled by organics anyway... hey wait a sec, the enemy is super hacking ships.... might be a good thing they require pilots

Might happen regardless seeing as a lot of the fighter is going to be computerized. But without a pilot you'll have some room for counter measures and extra feul/power.

EDIT:

Last Vizard wrote...

Council doesn't believe the Reapers are coming though, yes these colonies are in the terminus however Humanity is on the council and yet we aren't backed up by the other species...   ME universe isn't peace and love, if you read the history about how the species treat each other then you'll realise they are just the same as us.

I don't know if they don't believe it. They do make that outward appearance, but I doubt they're completely ingoring it.
That said those Terminus colonies are intentionally outside of Citadel and Alliance juristiction. These people don't want much help from either, so I don't think even the Alliance want to risk a war with the Terminus systems over of it.

Modifié par Poison_Berrie, 27 janvier 2012 - 11:54 .

[Last Vizard]

Varhjhin wrote...

Yes, we are also not backed up when the council is human, so?
Perhaps the council does not WANT to believe the Reapers are coming. Thought of that? Just assume for a moment ME would be real. Try to think, of the consequences for the galaxy when the council goes into full war mode over several years. Every species producing as many warships as they can. And then there are NO Reapers coming. Mass panics, economic disaster, stability and balance totally lost (some species can produce much larger fleets than others), a war with the Terminus systems... yeah, you get the picture.
On the other hand there is this one human, who dreamed of a galactic invasion. Sure there was one Reaper, but that one was defeated, and two years passed without any sign of Reaper invasion.
It is a very realistic, and ironically human, thing they assumed everything will work out just fine as it is.

Yes, so true however your given the oppurtunity to "judge" the council... I hope you can say "told you so" to practically everyone in ME3... 

So the council gears up for Reaper invasion and they turn out to have died in some galactic event out in darkspace, well the citadel species now have the ships to exterminate the Batarians/terminus species for their continued "proxy war" on Humanity.

Flip side, Council does nothing and the Reapers turn out to be real... majority of galactic population dies in the war or we lose everything....  Hmm, you don't need to be good at strategy games to realise the completely wrong choice is to bury your head in the sand.

so all in all I hope I can judge this new council aswell, oh and they aren't a human council... BW changed it so its just the same proportions either way... otherwise an all Human council would've gone into Batarian space and busted some heads.

[angry_peon]

Yeah of course we as players, as Shepard, know the Reapers are real. I just wanted to point out how it might look from the council's perstpective. They took the more comfy way, and convinced themselves the Reaper threat was done for. Was easy too. The only known Reaper dead, the "prophet" dead, two years passed, everything looked alright.
Not the right choice, but from their perspective the more logical, and ultimeately also the more believable one.
I actually like this piece of writing.
For that reason I never hated them, because I understand their motivation (or lack of).

[Last Vizard]

Varhjhin wrote...

Yeah of course we as players, as Shepard, know the Reapers are real. I just wanted to point out how it might look from the council's perstpective. They took the more comfy way, and convinced themselves the Reaper threat was done for. Was easy too. The only known Reaper dead, the "prophet" dead, two years passed, everything looked alright.
Not the right choice, but from their perspective the more logical, and ultimeately also the more believable one.
I actually like this piece of writing.
For that reason I never hated them, because I understand their motivation (or lack of).

"logical" choice isn't how I'd put it, the greedy or cowardly maybe but not logical because extinction or "lost revenue" are the real outcomes of this choice.

Put yourself in a Post Reaper invasion world:
Earth was saved however the multiple Reaper drive cores were destroyed or ruptured over Earth has practically made it a wasteland.  Upside is that every human that survived will have biotic children or none at all.

The majority of the Human population is gone, Humans, Krogans and Quarians suffered more than any other species due to low population and only one or a small number of worlds colonised.  Turians, Salarians and Asari fared much better with atleast one thousand years of space colonisation they could handle the great losses and still protect themselves from alien threats.

The Galactic people are now wondering how and why this happened, informed people that had taken Shep's words seriously (my Shep tells the media everything in both games) have survived or prospered during this period.  Now the people want someone to blame!, they have lost family and friends, their homes and jobs.

The people find out that Shep had given the council many warnings and Turian scientist had said the Thanax and other Reaper tech recovered from the Dreadnaught that attacked the citadel was far more advanced than the other Geth ships, Shep was most likely correct and the Reapers are a real threat.  Under direction of the Turian council member this information was dismissed "Ah yes, science".

Imagine you've lost your family, friends and the husks even ate your goddamn dog  .  Now you find out there was warnings and evidence (Reaper tech) and the Council just put their heads in the ground...  Trillions are dead and they want blood ----- time skip, the surviving memebrs of every species governments have been "judged" by the galactic people and now they call for Shep to lead them into a bright future.

You say you understand them and thats why you don't hate them da hell?  you can still hate a psycopath even though they felt nothing but an adrenaline rush when they killed your family...  I dunno, whenever I read/play something I really like I can't help but put myself in their shoes so when I could see the council allowing events that will cause the deaths of trilions I get alittle pissed off

Edit: ME3 would've been better if the Council species had been building weapons and ships since the end of ME1, preparing for the war with the Reapers like in Sheps speach at the end of ME1.  We could still get owned by the Reapers during the war, giving Shep a reason to find this deus ex machina weapon instead us doing nothing and just praying theres something lying around that can kill them.

Maybe its just me and my frail ego thats hates the council because they were working against my character and none of the above + (plus more that I can't be bothered going into right now because if you don't understand me after reading this post... well I'll just have to kill you then because we will never understand each other  lol jokes... or is it
PS. don't even get me started on RL politics

Modifié par Last Vizard, 27 janvier 2012 - 01:06 .

[Random citizen]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Just replayed through ME1... and I don't get that choice at all, it just seems completely ****ing dumb for the alliance fleet, with nothing bigger than frigates, to let that massive space station which probably made up the other half of Citadel defense is on to be blown up. I know that having the council go down with it is a very renegade thing to do, but Bioware tried to convince me, against all of my senses and the intuition I've picked up from my time paying Real Time Strategy games, that helping the citadel fleet would actually make it harder to take down sovereign. I shouldn't have to explain the advantages of surprise reinforcements and the numbers advantage, and the fact that the alliance hadn't brought anything bigger than a frigate while the citadel had capital ships and the ascension.

In summary, I sincerely doubt that the alliance holding back could have had any advantages, and I'm sure if it weren't for video game logic that shepard would have been rightfully court martialed and executed if he hadn't let the alliance help.

I chose to focus on sovereign with what I knew I had instead of dealing with sovereign with an fleet with unknown fighting capabilities. If I was clear on the current status and fighting capability of the destiny ascension and was sure they joined the fight I would a saved it.

Modifié par Random citizen, 27 janvier 2012 - 02:11 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

RiouHotaru wrote...

People seem to forget that, at the time you make that decision? Sovereign has ceased being an immediate threat. The whole reason he needed Saren was because he couldn't use the master control and the Keepers weren't responding.

N.O.

Dont' you people read the text in the game?

You are proven wrong several times .,..

Saren closes the arms, but dies/is killed in the process. Before Sovereign can gain control, Shepard uses Vigil's program to lock him out. At that point, Sovereign has (for the moment) ceased being an instant threat. And it's THEN that you make the decision.

Vigil clearlys said his data file will buy you only a MOMENT.
Sovereign is still very much a threat.

Therefore, choosing to save the DA isn't such a bad idea. There's no guarantee the Fleet will be able to kill Sovereign either way, and the loss of a few ships likely won't make a difference (if the Citadel fleet was already having issues, you think the Alliance will be any MORE effective?)

The Citadel fleet was too busy with the geth. Sovereign zoomed right past them. Teh Citadel fleet never properly engaged Sovereign.
And yes, loosing ships before engagin it is a great idea.   *SARCASM*

Besides, immediately after you make the decision, Sovereign hijacks Saren's corpse, which proves that he couldn't open the station, and had to do it himself to finish the job. So really, saving the DA isn't as "foolish" as Renegades make it out to be.

no, it proves nothing. Stop making s*** up.

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 27 janvier 2012 - 02:18 .

[RyuujinZERO]

Last Vizard wrote...
Yes, so true however your given the oppurtunity to "judge" the council... I hope you can say "told you so" to practically everyone in ME3... 

Virtually everyone on seeing shep in ME2 was like "I thought you were dead!", coudl be in ME3 on seeing Shep everyone is like "told you so".

Turian: "Is that a reaper?!"
Shep: "Yes... I told you so"

Asari: "by the goddess it can't be"
Shep: "Yes, it's a REAPER. I told you this"

Salarian: "That could only be a-"
Shep: "REAPER, REAPERREAPEREAPEREAPER I feel like I've been repeatting myself the last 3 god-damn years. It's a REAPER"

[Last Vizard]

RyuujinZERO wrote...

Last Vizard wrote...
Yes, so true however your given the oppurtunity to "judge" the council... I hope you can say "told you so" to practically everyone in ME3... 

Virtually everyone on seeing shep in ME2 was like "I thought you were dead!", coudl be in ME3 on seeing Shep everyone is like "told you so".

Turian: "Is that a reaper?!"
Shep: "Yes... I told you so"

Asari: "by the goddess it can't be"
Shep: "Yes, it's a REAPER. I told you this"

Salarian: "That could only be a-"
Shep: "REAPER, REAPERREAPEREAPEREAPER I feel like I've been repeatting myself the last 3 god-damn years. It's a REAPER"

oh yeah, this would atleast make it bearable however I'm pretty sure Shep will just keep, keeping on... galaxys a garden, dig it and crap like that.

[Poison_Berrie]

[quote]
Besides, immediately after you make the decision, Sovereign hijacks Saren's corpse, which proves that he couldn't open the station, and had to do it himself to finish the job. So really, saving the DA isn't as "foolish" as Renegades make it out to be.[/quote]

no, it proves nothing. Stop making s*** up.[/quote]
Why would Sovereign bother with Shepard if he doesn't at least see him as an immediate threat to him taking control or that it's faster for him to use a local avatar to grant him control. 

[Alamar2078]

FYI: I always save the council just so I can get some payback for the "Reapers" [air quotes intended] crack the Turian Councilor had in ME2.

[Sylvius the Mad]

RiouHotaru wrote...

Besides, immediately after you make the decision, Sovereign hijacks Saren's corpse, which proves that he couldn't open the station, and had to do it himself to finish the job. So really, saving the DA isn't as "foolish" as Renegades make it out to be.

Things that take place after the decision is made cannot be used to justify the decision.  That's not how decisions work.

Outcomes can't matter.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The only reason Sovereign attacked Shepard is because it was Shepard who used Vigil's datafile. Sovereign had no way of knowing what else Shepard would do and was a liability it felt it had to deal with.

Vigil's file only gave Shepard temporary control... it was never something that would stop Sovereign... and he'd regain control of the station at any moment.... that's why your squadmate yells at you to open the station's arms quickly and send the fleet in before that happened.

[Demonhoopa]

AlanC9 wrote...

Note that it's not certain the Alliance didn't bring the big ships. According to the Codex they would have been engaging from a distance where we wouldn't see them. Though the way the battle is animated has very little to do with the lore, so you can also make the case that Bio would have animated them if they had been there.

I'm also not certain your RTS experience has taught you the right lessons, tetrisblock4x1. ITRW keeping an unengaged reserve is a very wise practice depending on the circumstance. You need to play serious wargames if you want to see this sort of thing simulated, though. RTSs are organized around the only command and control factor being the player's actions, so this doesn't make sense for those games.

Bingo.

I enjoy saving the DA because it feels "heroic", especially given the treatment the council has given Shephard. Ironically (I guess) I'm more likely to let them perish with a Paragon Shep, who is more likely to be conservative and play it by the book while my renegade shep will roll the dice (screw it, balls to the wall, lets do this!).

Modifié par Demonhoopa, 27 janvier 2012 - 09:10 .

[Iakus]

Haasth wrote...

Anyone here remember what Paragon Shepard says about the matter in the interview? Makes it sound like the obvious better choice casualty wise. 

Something about a ship having a crew of around 300, then he lists a couple of ships, while the DA had over 10.000.
In the end, you saved more lives and the council. 

I've recently replayed ME1, and also overheard a volus talking about a tour he went on aboard the Destiny Ascension.  It apparantly carries nearly as much firepower as the rest of the asari fleet combined.  So from a long-term perspective, saving the Ascension is a good move, as otherwise the asari may be crippled when teh Reaper fleet arrives.

[Random citizen]

iakus wrote...

Haasth wrote...

Anyone here remember what Paragon Shepard says about the matter in the interview? Makes it sound like the obvious better choice casualty wise. 

Something about a ship having a crew of around 300, then he lists a couple of ships, while the DA had over 10.000.
In the end, you saved more lives and the council. 

I've recently replayed ME1, and also overheard a volus talking about a tour he went on aboard the Destiny Ascension.  It apparantly carries nearly as much firepower as the rest of the asari fleet combined.  So from a long-term perspective, saving the Ascension is a good move, as otherwise the asari may be crippled when teh Reaper fleet arrives.

Of course its a good idea saving it... if you know you will still have enough firepower to take down sovereign after doing so. If sovereign suceeded in opening the citadel relay it would not have mattered who saved who or what.

Modifié par Random citizen, 27 janvier 2012 - 09:44 .

[Demonhoopa]

iakus wrote...

Haasth wrote...

Anyone here remember what Paragon Shepard says about the matter in the interview? Makes it sound like the obvious better choice casualty wise. 

Something about a ship having a crew of around 300, then he lists a couple of ships, while the DA had over 10.000.
In the end, you saved more lives and the council. 

I've recently replayed ME1, and also overheard a volus talking about a tour he went on aboard the Destiny Ascension.  It apparantly carries nearly as much firepower as the rest of the asari fleet combined.  So from a long-term perspective, saving the Ascension is a good move, as otherwise the asari may be crippled when teh Reaper fleet arrives.

Problem is if you don't defeat Sovereign (weakening Alliance forces saving the DA from the geth fleet makes this a serious possiblility), there ISN'T any long term. Life in the galaxy as it is known, is over.

I understand the dilemma Shepard faces and find it anything but "stupid" (as the OP charactarized it). I found it to be quite dramatic.