440 réponses à ce sujet

[anonymous1193]

The ascension has NO tactical value whatsoever. Unless I had a grudge against humanity, I would never sacrifice a fleet of well armed warships for a bunch of stubborn aliens. Given to how the council is a bunch of backstabbing pricks, the only regret I have is that I can't destroy the ascension myself.

[Nashiktal]

anonymous1193 wrote...

The ascension has NO tactical value whatsoever. Unless I had a grudge against humanity, I would never sacrifice a fleet of well armed warships for a bunch of stubborn aliens. Given to how the council is a bunch of backstabbing pricks, the only regret I have is that I can't destroy the ascension myself.

Saying it has no tactical value is a normative statement that doesn't hold up to facts. I think its stupid to use such a waship as an emergency taxi for the council, but saying the DA has no value is just not being fair.

[Thargorichiban]

Pacifien wrote...

Thargorichiban wrote...
From a logistical standpoint it was much better to save the Destiny Ascension during the Battle of the Citadel than to not. At least when you factor in the upcoming war with the Reapers.

Well, that's forward thinking to be planning for the upcoming war against the Reapers when you haven't even finished off Sovereign yet.

When it comes to war it helps to think several steps ahead for your strategy. It was a risk, but the threat of hundreds of Reapers is much more dangerous than a single one.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nashiktal wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

bleetman wrote...

There's military justifications for going either way, I'd say. As I mentioned in another thread, my own personal reasoning the times I opted to save it wasn't so much to actually save the ship or the council itself, but to flank and quickly obliterate the geth fleet that arrived with Sovereign whilst it was pre-occupied. The alliance fleet would've been slaughtered if it ended up caught between Sovereign and the geth.

I beg to differ.

The goal isn't to flank the Geth. Sovereign is important.
Either way, the Geth are busy with the Citadel fleet, they can't just flank you.

You could argue you wanted more firepower agaisnt Sovereign, but again - fresh ships vs. damaged ones. Also, since no one actually engaged Sovereign properly there was no way to tell how much firepower would be needed. No way to tell how much time you have to take it out.

Logic dictates to assault with as much force you can bring to bear as fast as you can. Sacrificing either firepower or time needlesly is a downright bad move.

To me, I had no idea if the citadel fleet would have been able to distract the geth suffciently. There was quite a lot of geth attacking the DA itself, and no other ships, and as seen the destiny ascension did not last long.

I had no way of knowing the geth would have simply ignored my fleet while it attacked sovvy, and in my mind the DA would have seen escape as impossible now and move to engage either sovvy, or other geth forces thus solidifying allied positions around the citadel.

In my mind killing those geth before moving to engage sovvy was a tactically sound move. I had what I needed to prevent sovvy from activating the relay, and I did not have a clear picture of the battlefield to make too many assumptions. It was either hit hard and fast and hope sovvy goes down, or do what I can to stabilize the field around me, and for the future. (eliminating those geth, saving the dreadnought, and saving the council).

It was a hard decision I made at the time, and when I saw it succeed I felt quite gratified. Less so now knowing it didn't matter either way, but I still feel I made the right decision.

DA wasn't alone. We know there's a large fleet stationed there. We see it. We know there's fighting going on.

And yes, the Citadel fleet will keep them destracted - that's space combat 101. You can't disengage and move willy-nilly once engaged. And ME ships have forward-fixed weapons. and newtonaiam motion. Manouvering is everything.

Not that it matters if hte Geth do try to get to the Alliance fleet. If they do, the'll just open themselves to the citadel fleet.
Even if htey don't - even if hte 5th fleet is destroyed - as long as Sovereign is destroyed before that it doesn't matter.

And you said it yourself - hit hard and FAST. You gamble there by taking time to "stabilize" the battlefield (which you don't really do).

You acted on false assumptions, but then again, that's not my problem.

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

DAO had a choice like this, too. You think you need to sacrifice something in order to keep something really bad from happening, but it turns out that if you take a chance and don't do the sacrifice.... nothing bad happens.

You cannot take foreknowledge into account when making reasoned decisions.

Yep. The stakes aren't quite as high in the DAO case, of course -- even if things had gone badly casualties wouldn't have been necessarily too bad, since presumably people would stay on their guard. But it's still an awful risk to take.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Medhia Nox wrote...

Blah blah - largest ship created by organics... ever.

Yadda yadda - Ashley says that it's "main" gun alone could destroy any ship in the Alliance fleet.

Yackety Schmackety - the goal of Sovereign is to destroy galactic government throwing the species of the galaxy into disarray (for this reason alone - anyone allowing the DA to get destroyed should lose).

Etc. etc. Outfitted with stuff the Normandy now has... the largest ship, with the largest weapons - could be a formidable flagship.

And all of it will be irrelevant if Sovereign suceeds.

[mango smoothie]

Thargorichiban wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Thargorichiban wrote...
From a logistical standpoint it was much better to save the Destiny Ascension during the Battle of the Citadel than to not. At least when you factor in the upcoming war with the Reapers.

Well, that's forward thinking to be planning for the upcoming war against the Reapers when you haven't even finished off Sovereign yet.

When it comes to war it helps to think several steps ahead for your strategy. It was a risk, but the threat of hundreds of Reapers is much more dangerous than a single one.

Well ignore the actual outcomes for a second, if Sovereign had succeeded because you decided to save the Destiny Acension you would be dealing with hundreds of Reapers right then and there.

Modifié par mango smoothie, 25 janvier 2012 - 07:49 .

[Nashiktal]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

bleetman wrote...

There's military justifications for going either way, I'd say. As I mentioned in another thread, my own personal reasoning the times I opted to save it wasn't so much to actually save the ship or the council itself, but to flank and quickly obliterate the geth fleet that arrived with Sovereign whilst it was pre-occupied. The alliance fleet would've been slaughtered if it ended up caught between Sovereign and the geth.

I beg to differ.

The goal isn't to flank the Geth. Sovereign is important.
Either way, the Geth are busy with the Citadel fleet, they can't just flank you.

You could argue you wanted more firepower agaisnt Sovereign, but again - fresh ships vs. damaged ones. Also, since no one actually engaged Sovereign properly there was no way to tell how much firepower would be needed. No way to tell how much time you have to take it out.

Logic dictates to assault with as much force you can bring to bear as fast as you can. Sacrificing either firepower or time needlesly is a downright bad move.

To me, I had no idea if the citadel fleet would have been able to distract the geth suffciently. There was quite a lot of geth attacking the DA itself, and no other ships, and as seen the destiny ascension did not last long.

I had no way of knowing the geth would have simply ignored my fleet while it attacked sovvy, and in my mind the DA would have seen escape as impossible now and move to engage either sovvy, or other geth forces thus solidifying allied positions around the citadel.

In my mind killing those geth before moving to engage sovvy was a tactically sound move. I had what I needed to prevent sovvy from activating the relay, and I did not have a clear picture of the battlefield to make too many assumptions. It was either hit hard and fast and hope sovvy goes down, or do what I can to stabilize the field around me, and for the future. (eliminating those geth, saving the dreadnought, and saving the council).

It was a hard decision I made at the time, and when I saw it succeed I felt quite gratified. Less so now knowing it didn't matter either way, but I still feel I made the right decision.

DA wasn't alone. We know there's a large fleet stationed there. We see it. We know there's fighting going on.

And yes, the Citadel fleet will keep them destracted - that's space combat 101. You can't disengage and move willy-nilly once engaged. And ME ships have forward-fixed weapons. and newtonaiam motion. Manouvering is everything.

Not that it matters if hte Geth do try to get to the Alliance fleet. If they do, the'll just open themselves to the citadel fleet.
Even if htey don't - even if hte 5th fleet is destroyed - as long as Sovereign is destroyed before that it doesn't matter.

And you said it yourself - hit hard and FAST. You gamble there by taking time to "stabilize" the battlefield (which you don't really do).

You acted on false assumptions, but then again, that's not my problem.

You didn't really respond to any of my points. We also didn't see any other ship next to the DA, or anywhere around it. All we see is the DA, and the geth. At this point it is you who are making assuption, and by saying I didn't stabilize the battleground is metagaming, as we don't see the effects of the larger conflict, or what the DA does after being saved.

If we are metagaming there is no argument here.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 25 janvier 2012 - 07:48 .

[AlanC9]

Nashiktal wrote...

anonymous1193 wrote...

The ascension has NO tactical value whatsoever. Unless I had a grudge against humanity, I would never sacrifice a fleet of well armed warships for a bunch of stubborn aliens. Given to how the council is a bunch of backstabbing pricks, the only regret I have is that I can't destroy the ascension myself.

Saying it has no tactical value is a normative statement that doesn't hold up to facts. I think its stupid to use such a waship as an emergency taxi for the council, but saying the DA has no value is just not being fair.

No, I think it's fair at the moment Shepard is faced with the choice. The DA is disengaging, and isn't coming back. Whether it blows up or doesn't blow up, it's a non-factor in the battle.

Modifié par AlanC9, 25 janvier 2012 - 07:48 .

[BlueMagitek]

Nashiktal wrote...

Saying it has no tactical value is a normative statement that doesn't hold up to facts. I think its stupid to use such a waship as an emergency taxi for the council, but saying the DA has no value is just not being fair.

This is true, it makes an excellent distraction. 

I don't know, it doesn't seem very well thought out; if a dreadnaught is best used at long range, why keep it inside a place where it has no room to maneuver? 

Is there no place for the Council to go on the Citadel?  No enforced bunker room?  The Citadel is immense; there must be some safe place to hide. 

[v_Zalem]

I've always been of the choice to let them die. The council (being politicians didn't help them cause I despise politicians but I digress) proved to be incompetent and came off as weak many times throughout the game. Anything as threatening as Saren - a former top SPECTRE agent and Sovereign (when Shepard found out about it and reported it) should have not gotten anywhere near the Citadel. Their actions to ground the Normandy and its crew nearly got everyone killed off because it gave Saren that much more time to get to the conduit and all that jazz.

What's worse is that even if you save them they treat you as a traitor because you're with Cerberus...which you had no control over. So even with that little tidbit ask yourself why even bother saving them from a practical standpoint (I'm not talking about Paragon runs either) when you're being ****ted on by these people constantly for doing their dirty work and saving lives. Fu(|< them. I know this isn't related to the DA itself, but it is only one ship, and given the choice between saving it or losing hundreds of other ship I'd  go with attacking Sovereign directly. I'd say let the fighter suqadrons deal with the geth ships. Speaking of which, why haven't we seen more fighters, bombers, gunships, etc. and such in Mass Effect? They would be extremely effective in taking out cruisers, frigates, etc.

Also, how long would it take to replace something like the Destiny Ascension anyway? I doubt it would be in a short time as two years. Even if it were saved the council races had better constuct, engineer, and research some new tech after something like that.

Modifié par v_Zalem, 25 janvier 2012 - 07:57 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Pacifien wrote...
I think that was to show just how unprepared the Citadel races would be for a full Reaper onslaught. The Destiny Ascension is the best they have to offer and Sovereign wasn't bothered by it in the slightest. The cinematics show it just cutting through Turians ships like it ain't no thing.

Not only did it take an entire Alliance fleet concentrating on one Reaper to bring it down, but it took a fluke to get its shields down in the first place. Had Shepard not pissed off Sovereign enough for Sovereign to take control of Saren's body, who knows if the Alliance would have ever been able to blow Sovereign up.

"Just" the 5th fleet? If the tweets are anything to go by, not likely.
Sovereign at full power (and not standing exposed like a sitting duck) > Fleet

[Thargorichiban]

mango smoothie wrote...

Thargorichiban wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Thargorichiban wrote...
From a logistical standpoint it was much better to save the Destiny Ascension during the Battle of the Citadel than to not. At least when you factor in the upcoming war with the Reapers.

Well, that's forward thinking to be planning for the upcoming war against the Reapers when you haven't even finished off Sovereign yet.

When it comes to war it helps to think several steps ahead for your strategy. It was a risk, but the threat of hundreds of Reapers is much more dangerous than a single one.

Well ignore the actual outcomes for a second, if Sovereign had succeeded because you decided to save the Destiny Acension you would be dealing with hundreds of Reapers right then and there.

Wasn't Saren integral to that plan? Didn't he need to link Sovereign to the Citadel's computers manually for him to call in the rest of the Reapers?

Worst case scenario has Sovereign throwing a hissy fit inside the Citadel if the Alliance fleet is destroyed and possibly destroying the Citadel.

[Nashiktal]

BlueMagitek wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Saying it has no tactical value is a normative statement that doesn't hold up to facts. I think its stupid to use such a waship as an emergency taxi for the council, but saying the DA has no value is just not being fair.

This is true, it makes an excellent distraction. 

I don't know, it doesn't seem very well thought out; if a dreadnaught is best used at long range, why keep it inside a place where it has no room to maneuver? 

Is there no place for the Council to go on the Citadel?  No enforced bunker room?  The Citadel is immense; there must be some safe place to hide. 

I agree, it doesn't make much sense, and hell it probably made the council a huge target. They went for a seemingly invulnerable warship for safety when they should have either hid, or used a ship built for protecting the council. (Something with speed, or maybe using recently developed stealth tech.)

[chengthao]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Just replayed through ME1... and I don't get that choice at all, it just seems completely ****ing dumb for the alliance fleet, with nothing bigger than frigates, to let that massive space station which probably made up the other half of Citadel defense is on to be blown up. I know that having the council go down with it is a very renegade thing to do, but Bioware tried to convince me, against all of my senses and the intuition I've picked up from my time paying Real Time Strategy games, that helping the citadel fleet would actually make it harder to take down sovereign. I shouldn't have to explain the advantages of surprise reinforcements and the numbers advantage, and the fact that the alliance hadn't brought anything bigger than a frigate while the citadel had capital ships and the ascension.

In summary, I sincerely doubt that the alliance holding back could have had any advantages, and I'm sure if it weren't for video game logic that shepard would have been rightfully court martialed and executed if he hadn't let the alliance help.

the Normandy is a frigate, did you see all those HUGE, GIGANTIC ships surronding her, those were Crusiers and Destroyers and Fighter Carriers

I think you need to learn ship classification, it goes (from largest to smallest): Carriers, Battleships, Heavy Cruisers, Cruisers, Light Cruisers, Destryoers and then Frigates

I'm almost 100% postive that the Alliance had ships larger than frigates since they were all significantly larger than the Normandy, an Alliance frigate

Modifié par chengthao, 25 janvier 2012 - 07:56 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Thargorichiban wrote...
When it comes to war it helps to think several steps ahead for your strategy. It was a risk, but the threat of hundreds of Reapers is much more dangerous than a single one.

And that single one can bring in those hunderds....which is exactly the point.
The DA will be USELESS if sSovereign suceeds.

Nishkatal wrote...
Saying it has no tactical value is a normative statement that doesn't
hold up to facts. I think its stupid to use such a waship as an
emergency taxi for the council, but saying the DA has no value is just
not being fair.

A crippled warship that running away? It's tactical value in the Citadel battle was minimal at best.

[mango smoothie]

Thargorichiban wrote...

mango smoothie wrote...

Thargorichiban wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Thargorichiban wrote...
From a logistical standpoint it was much better to save the Destiny Ascension during the Battle of the Citadel than to not. At least when you factor in the upcoming war with the Reapers.

Well, that's forward thinking to be planning for the upcoming war against the Reapers when you haven't even finished off Sovereign yet.

When it comes to war it helps to think several steps ahead for your strategy. It was a risk, but the threat of hundreds of Reapers is much more dangerous than a single one.

Well ignore the actual outcomes for a second, if Sovereign had succeeded because you decided to save the Destiny Acension you would be dealing with hundreds of Reapers right then and there.

Wasn't Saren integral to that plan? Didn't he need to link Sovereign to the Citadel's computers manually for him to call in the rest of the Reapers?

Worst case scenario has Sovereign throwing a hissy fit inside the Citadel if the Alliance fleet is destroyed and possibly destroying the Citadel.

Saren just needed to get in there to keep the arms open until Soveriegn got in, then close them while Sovereign did his job. Sure maybe taking control might slow him down a bit, but the Reapers made the Citadel I think he would be able to access it no matter what.

Modifié par mango smoothie, 25 janvier 2012 - 07:56 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Thargorichiban wrote...
Wasn't Saren integral to that plan? Didn't he need to link Sovereign to the Citadel's computers manually for him to call in the rest of the Reapers?

Worst case scenario has Sovereign throwing a hissy fit inside the Citadel if the Alliance fleet is destroyed and possibly destroying the Citadel.

Sovy needed Saren to open the Citadel, open/lock the relay and transfer control. Which Saren did.

Shepard temporarily stalled hte process by corrupting the security protocols, but with that Shep was only buying time - nothing more.

[Nashiktal]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Thargorichiban wrote...
When it comes to war it helps to think several steps ahead for your strategy. It was a risk, but the threat of hundreds of Reapers is much more dangerous than a single one.

And that single one can bring in those hunderds....which is exactly the point.
The DA will be USELESS if sSovereign suceeds.

Nishkatal wrote...
Saying it has no tactical value is a normative statement that doesn't
hold up to facts. I think its stupid to use such a waship as an
emergency taxi for the council, but saying the DA has no value is just
not being fair.

A crippled warship that running away? It's tactical value in the Citadel battle was minimal at best.

Was it crippled? I was of the assumption it was crippled because it was forced in close combat not from damage, its barriers were still holding at the time shep makes the choice to reinforce or not.

[Poison_Berrie]

AlanC9 wrote...

Codex time:

Ship mobility dominates space combat] along the bow with the opposing vessel's broadside. Battles typically play out as artillery duels fought at ranges measured in thousands of kilometers, though assault through defended mass relays often occur at "knife fight" ranges as close as a few dozen kilometers. 

Note that "knife fight" range is a few dozen kilometers.

The cinematics from the battle are worthless when trying to understand what's actually going on. Unless you want to just say that the Codex info is all wrong and the cinematics are real.

Well that's because a mass relay fight will have one side arriving through and near the relay. I was talking about a regular space battle.

You are right, though, I was using the wrong assumption that the biggest guns could accelerate projectiles to near light speed. 
This greatly reduces the range. My bad.

[BlueMagitek]

Nashiktal wrote...

I agree, it doesn't make much sense, and hell it probably made the council a huge target. They went for a seemingly invulnerable warship for safety when they should have either hid, or used a ship built for protecting the council. (Something with speed, or maybe using recently developed stealth tech.)

Well, the entire reaction to Saren going to Ilos is kind of bungled.  Even if the Reapers aren't a threat, just protecting the Relays that they know is kind of a dumb move considering they're dealing not only with their former top agent, but creatures that they hadn't dealt with for 300 years.  They didn't make the Relays, they found them; who is to say that there isn't some way to the Citadel they didn't know about?  I mean, they know there are relays out there that they haven't tested.

But perhaps I'm expecting too much from the three people who are supposed to manage a large alliance; one of whom is likely centuries old.  Oh well.

[Thargorichiban]

mango smoothie wrote...

Thargorichiban wrote...

mango smoothie wrote...

Thargorichiban wrote...

Pacifien wrote...

Thargorichiban wrote...
From a logistical standpoint it was much better to save the Destiny Ascension during the Battle of the Citadel than to not. At least when you factor in the upcoming war with the Reapers.

Well, that's forward thinking to be planning for the upcoming war against the Reapers when you haven't even finished off Sovereign yet.

When it comes to war it helps to think several steps ahead for your strategy. It was a risk, but the threat of hundreds of Reapers is much more dangerous than a single one.

Well ignore the actual outcomes for a second, if Sovereign had succeeded because you decided to save the Destiny Acension you would be dealing with hundreds of Reapers right then and there.

Wasn't Saren integral to that plan? Didn't he need to link Sovereign to the Citadel's computers manually for him to call in the rest of the Reapers?

Worst case scenario has Sovereign throwing a hissy fit inside the Citadel if the Alliance fleet is destroyed and possibly destroying the Citadel.

Saren just needed to get in there to keep the arms open until Soveriegn got in, then close them while Sovereign did his job. Sure maybe taking control might slow him down a bit, but the Reapers made the Citadel I think he would be able to acess it no matter what.

Actually Saren was there for more than opening the arms. He was also there to use the Citadel's master control unit to transfer control to Sovereign (which Shepard stopped). Without the transfer Sovereign wouldn't be able to access it.

And I'm not sure if Sovereign would have had a Plan B. The Reapers didn't seem to have one when the Keepers were put out of their control and Sovereign took years to develop Saren as a resource. So I think it is pretty likely that he would have been rendered "helpless" (i.e. not been able to call in his reinforcements) and the invasion wouldn't have started that day.

That being said there would have been millions killed that day instead of thousands if the Alliance fleet had been destroyed. But that is moot point really. You are able to save the Destiny Ascension and retain a better logistical position for the upcoming war.