440 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia Nox]

"That's space combat 101" - this says it all right here.

Taking this in university are you Lotion?

[mybudgee]

What school? The University of ointments & creams?? Salves State??

[Lotion Soronarr]

Medhia Nox wrote...

"That's space combat 101" - this says it all right here.

Taking this in university are you Lotion?

No, but newtonian laws (which ME ships follow) is.

The basics and laws of space warfare and manouvering can be derived from those specifics. We know how FTL works in ME, weapons, defences and moving around..and heat managment.

So you know what can and can't be done..even moreso since there are educated people who have been modeling space combat based on known physics.

[AlanC9]

Nashiktal wrote...

I agree, it doesn't make much sense, and hell it probably made the council a huge target. They went for a seemingly invulnerable warship for safety when they should have either hid, or used a ship built for protecting the council. (Something with speed, or maybe using recently developed stealth tech.)

I think it's unlikely they had any kind of pre-existing plan for evacuating the Council from the Citadel. But yeah, a frigate would have been a better option, in hindsight.

Modifié par AlanC9, 25 janvier 2012 - 08:06 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nashiktal wrote...

Was it crippled? I was of the assumption it was crippled because it was forced in close combat not from damage, its barriers were still holding at the time shep makes the choice to reinforce or not.

Because ships in perfect fighting condition call for immediate aid?
Didn't Joker say that they are "dead in the water"?

[Thargorichiban]

AlanC9 wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

I agree, it doesn't make much sense, and hell it probably made the council a huge target. They went for a seemingly invulnerable warship for safety when they should have either hid, or used a ship built for protecting the council. (Something with speed, or maybe using recently developed stealth tech.)

I think it's unlikely they had any kind of plan for evacuating the Council from the Citadel.

Yeah, they were pretty complacent back during that period about security. They never considered that the arms of the Citadel could be used against them.

[Nashiktal]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Was it crippled? I was of the assumption it was crippled because it was forced in close combat not from damage, its barriers were still holding at the time shep makes the choice to reinforce or not.

Because ships in perfect fighting condition call for immediate aid?
Didn't Joker say that they are "dead in the water"?

A dreadnought without support fighting in conditions where they can't fight back (knife fight range)? Sounds dead in the water to me without actually indicating they were disabled. Yeah. Seemed fine to me once released.

Modifié par Nashiktal, 25 janvier 2012 - 08:16 .

[DDG4005]

I always save the Ascension.  It's not about the the geth or just Sovereign in my opinion but what humanity is willing to do as part of the galactic community.  Many of the other races already view humans as bullies; allowing the council to die just confirms that.  I also suspect that it will be harder to convince the other races to aid earth in ME3 if the Destiny Ascension is destroyed (and rightfully so).

[RyuujinZERO]

I think a lot of you guys are suffering from 20/20 hindsight as well as foreknowledge of how things are likely to pan out in Mass Effect 3...


Forget what you know about ME2 and 3, forget there is even going to be a sequel - or for that matter a tommorow.

You ARE Command Shepard, you are stood in the council chambers, the 5th fleet's next action and the fate of a galaxy hinges on your words. Sovereign is on fast approach with the citadel, it's plan - to activate the hidden relay and bring about the end to all galactic civilisation...


...do you ask yourself "Well hey, if the council dies the council races won't be too happy with humanity", or "If the destiny ascension goes down over 10,000 people will die!", or "We must help our allies!"?

...No. If the reaper isn't stopped there might not BE a tommorow for your alien buddies to be upset over. Indeed, the Turians could be just as easily asking you in the last few hours of civilisation "Why Commander... why did you sacrifice the 5th fleet to save the destiny ascension but sacrifice our entire FUTURE!?"


Of course, that isn't how it plays out if you take the paragon path. But there's no way Shepard could know that in advance, nor for that matter that after the event such an event COULD have happened.

Right or wrong doesn't really matter - play the game in a way that reflects YOUR decisions and don't stress over it

Modifié par RyuujinZERO, 25 janvier 2012 - 08:36 .

[NOD-INFORMER37]

I'm sure there were more Alliance ships then they showed in the one cutscene lol. (at least how many they could muster at that time)

But RyuujinZERO is right, why is this such a huge deal? I know choices are a big thing in Mass Effect but hey thats where the replay value comes in, theres no sense in stressing over it. Its a game, enjoy it!

[G3rman]

And its a shame when people's opinions, no matter how they are defended, are put down because someone thinks they aren't rational. You don't have to agree with them but at least accept they made their choice with a reason, right or no.

Both choices have their ups and downs, both in what happens in the future as well as the consequences that could be implied. Both sides can justify at least one reason as to why they did what they did so stop hating on each other.

[Nu-Nu]

I didn't save ascension just for the council, there were thousands on board. I like to think that that many of those thousands of beings that I saved by sacrificing hundreds of humans will join the army in ME3. My Shepard, at least the paragon and paragade and renegon, values all life, not just human.

Besides, it wasn't Sovereign that was the biggest threat to galaxy, it was Saren and him opening a gateway for the rest of the reapers. Stopping Saren was top priority which Shepard was doing. Sovereign really was quite minor to Saren, unless Sovereign gets control and his buddies show up, most he's capable of is destroying citadel and ascension, not the whole galaxy, and I wasn't going to let that happen. 

I wonder if this be a different case if the ascension was filled with humans?

Edit - Doubt Soverign would even completely destroy citadel because it had the relay, so he was really only a threat to the flying ships, at least until Saren switched control of the relay over to him, which Shepard was never going to let happen.

Modifié par Nu-Nu, 25 janvier 2012 - 09:22 .

[Nikitn]

It makes perfect sense to not waste resources on the geth (to save the DA), and instead send everything at the reaper.

[darkiddd]

Both choices make sense. Let me explain.

The main objective in the battle of the citadel is to destroy sovereign no matter the cost because if you don't it will end up opening the portal to dark space, the reapers will come and all will be lost.
Now there are two very important factors that matter here: time and the naval forces you play with.

Time because the longer you take to reach sovereign and destroy it the more possible it is that the portal to dark space is opened. It does not matter if the council lives because a saved destiny ascension is nothing compared to hundreds or thousands or reapers (hell in fact it did nothing in the battle against the geth, it is very overrated) and saving it takes you this time, time that sovereign is using to open the portal, and also you will lose alliance ships and firepower to take it down.

So attending exclusively to time, letting the council die is the right choice, but one cannot ignore the geth fleet and here is the second factor.

If the alliance charges directly against sovereign it is risking to be between it and the geth fleet once the geth have destroyed completely the council fleet. This wouldn't be a bad thing if the alliance manages to finish off sovereign before being beaten by the geth because the priority again is to destroy sovereign, but if the alliance is destroyed before achieving this then sovereign wins. So one can lose time destroying the geth and saving the council but now can face sovereign without having an enemy force behind and has more chances of beating sovereign, besides, the remaining council ships could help and one could count with more firepower than with the alliance fleet alone (I know this is questionable because we don't know the state of the surviving council ships, so after saving the DA the number of ships against sovereign could be bigger or smaller, we don't know but it is a possibility the number would be bigger than the alliance fleet alone)

Defending the second choice against the public opinion is easy because very few people knew what sovereign was and what was it trying to do, so destroying the geth and then sovereign is what anyone would have done in a normal battle, however this wasn't a normal battle and taking down sovereign was the main objective,

Defending the first choice is much more difficult because nobody would face an objective letting your rearguard unprotected against the rest of the enemy forces, not to speak of abandoning ally forces that could help you afterwards. Of course could do this because sovereign was a reaper and he was going to open a portal to dark space etc... but everyone would say "ah yes reapers" and after dismissing your claims would execute you for your strategic failure.

So both decisions are right attending to different factors but one is more "noble" to the public opinion because they don't know of the existence of the reapers. How the asari and turians don't try to kill shepard everytime they see him in ME2 if he chooses to focus on sovereign is beyond my comprenhension.

But both decisions make sense for different reasons.

[darkiddd]

Both choices make sense. Let me explain.

The main objective in the battle of the citadel is to destroy sovereign no matter the cost because if you don't it will end up opening the portal to dark space, the reapers will come and all will be lost.
Now there are two very important factors that matter here: time and the naval forces you play with.

Time because the longer you take to reach sovereign and destroy it the more possible it is that the portal to dark space is opened. It does not matter if the council lives because a saved destiny ascension is nothing compared to hundreds or thousands or reapers (hell in fact it did nothing in the battle against the geth, it is very overrated) and saving it takes you this time, time that sovereign is using to open the portal, and also you will lose alliance ships and firepower to take it down.

So attending exclusively to time, letting the council die is the right choice, but one cannot ignore the geth fleet and here is the second factor.

If the alliance charges directly against sovereign it is risking to be between it and the geth fleet once the geth have destroyed completely the council fleet. This wouldn't be a bad thing if the alliance manages to finish off sovereign before being beaten by the geth because the priority again is to destroy sovereign, but if the alliance is destroyed before achieving this then sovereign wins. So one can lose time destroying the geth and saving the council but now can face sovereign without having an enemy force behind and has more chances of beating sovereign, besides, the remaining council ships could help and one could count with more firepower than with the alliance fleet alone (I know this is questionable because we don't know the state of the surviving council ships, so after saving the DA the number of ships against sovereign could be bigger or smaller, we don't know but it is a possibility the number would be bigger than the alliance fleet alone)

Defending the second choice against the public opinion is easy because very few people knew what sovereign was and what was it trying to do, so destroying the geth and then sovereign is what anyone would have done in a normal battle, however this wasn't a normal battle and taking down sovereign was the main objective,

Defending the first choice is much more difficult because nobody would face an objective letting your rearguard unprotected against the rest of the enemy forces, not to speak of abandoning ally forces that could help you afterwards. Of course could do this because sovereign was a reaper and he was going to open a portal to dark space etc... but everyone would say "ah yes reapers" and after dismissing your claims would execute you for your strategic failure.

So both decisions are right attending to different factors but one is more "noble" to the public opinion because they don't know of the existence of the reapers. How the asari and turians don't try to kill shepard everytime they see him in ME2 if he chooses to focus on sovereign is beyond my comprenhension.

But both decisions make sense for different reasons.

[Nikitn]

Luc0s wrote...

NOD-INFORMER37 wrote...

I'm sure there were more Alliance ships then they showed in the one cutscene lol. (at least how many they could muster at that time)

But RyuujinZERO is right, why is this such a huge deal? I know choices are a big thing in Mass Effect but hey thats where the replay value comes in, theres no sense in stressing over it. Its a game, enjoy it!

These discussions and heated debates come from people who try to apply real-life logic to a video-game (and fail at it).

I don't mind what choices you make. I don't care what choices anyone makes and what logic they try to apply to to their choices.

However, I do mind when people argue that saving the council is the rational and logical thing to do. No, it's not. If Mass Effect was real, than you would think twice before you risk the fate of an entire galaxy for 10.00 people and a counci, which can be replaced.


So, realistically, sacrificing the council is the only right thing to do. But since this is a video-game, one can apply any kind of (absurd) logic they want and still get away with it, since BioWare rarely punishes their players with a "EPIC FAILTURE" screen.

What a retarded post - It also makes perfect sense to engage the Geth at once and save the DA, if only to get rid of the Geth and thus only contend with Sovreign.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nashiktal wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

Was it crippled? I was of the assumption it was crippled because it was forced in close combat not from damage, its barriers were still holding at the time shep makes the choice to reinforce or not.

Because ships in perfect fighting condition call for immediate aid?
Didn't Joker say that they are "dead in the water"?

A dreadnought without support fighting in conditions where they can't fight back (knife fight range)? Sounds dead in the water to me without actually indicating they were disabled. Yeah. Seemed fine to me once released.

"Main drives off-line". Not fine. It was clearly damaged.

[nelly21]

@ darkidd

I like this human! He understands!

Bioware made it so both decisions made sense. Saving the Council is the better strategic choice. It means that you will be able to form a more organized and cohesive defensive force to fight the reapers even if you fail to stop Sovereign.

Sacrificing the Council is the better tactical choice as it allows the Alliance to strike directly at enemy fleet's flagship with a fully intact force. There are many instances throughout history where a direct assault on the leader of a large force has resulted in victory for the attackers. Take the battle of Gaugamela for example where the Persians had been pushing back the Macedonians and were winning until a decisive charge by Alexander broke through Darius's personal guards forcing his retreat and causing the Persian lines to collapse.

[Someone With Mass]

D3MON-SOVER3IGN wrote...

Whats funny is that the ascension was kinda hyped up but didnt do ish in the final battle. I know its a dreadnought but still lol

Dreadnoughts tends to not do so well in knife fights.

[Lotion Soronarr]

G3rman wrote...

And its a shame when people's opinions, no matter how they are defended, are put down because someone thinks they aren't rational. You don't have to agree with them but at least accept they made their choice with a reason, right or no.

Both choices have their ups and downs, both in what happens in the future as well as the consequences that could be implied. Both sides can justify at least one reason as to why they did what they did so stop hating on each other.

It's not rational. It's explaned perfectly why.
Period.

Galaxy >> Council. That's not debatable.

the difference comes from people thinking (wrongly) that sovereign isn't a treat, that saving the council is more important than stopping sovy, and so on....and from people not doing the research (confusing save the DA with save the citadel fleet) From that standpoint, their choice can be defended.
But it's based on false premises.

[Lotion Soronarr]

darkiddd wrote...
So attending exclusively to time, letting the council die is the right choice, but one cannot ignore the geth fleet and here is the second factor.

If the alliance charges directly against sovereign it is risking to be between it and the geth fleet once the geth have destroyed completely the council fleet. This wouldn't be a bad thing if the alliance manages to finish off sovereign before being beaten by the geth because the priority again is to destroy sovereign, but if the alliance is destroyed before achieving this then sovereign wins.

You're basing this on several assumptions:
- that the geth fleet can destroy the citadel fleet fast and easily.
- that even if the Citadel fleet is destroyed, the geth can came to Sovys aid in time to make any difference
- that the geth can disengage and just head for the 5th fleeet( in this case, they would find themselves in between 2 fleets nad utterly destroyed)

The Citadel fleet is a powerfull ons, and the geth can't easily destroy it. The battle was raging the whole time. It's quite posibley the citadel fleet would have pushed the geth back alone (evenmoreso sicne reainforcment were sure to be inbound).

[Poison_Berrie]

 

BlueMagitek wrote...

Well, the entire reaction to Saren going to Ilos is kind of bungled.  Even if the Reapers aren't a threat, just protecting the Relays that they know is kind of a dumb move considering they're dealing not only with their former top agent, but creatures that they hadn't dealt with for 300 years.  They didn't make the Relays, they found them; who is to say that there isn't some way to the Citadel they didn't know about?  I mean, they know there are relays out there that they haven't tested. 

But perhaps I'm expecting too much from the three people who are supposed to manage a large alliance; one of whom is likely centuries old.  Oh well.

It might have something to do with the fact that it's a ground based mass relay. A seemingly one of a kind one who expressly links a lost planet directly with the Citadel Presidium.
Perhaps they should have had a Reaper plan since the formation of the Council, just in case they ever had to fight sentient spaceships who are civilizations onto themselves. 

Luc0s wrote...

So, realistically, sacrificing the council is the only right thing to do. But since this is a video-game, one can apply any kind of (absurd) logic they want and still get away with it, since BioWare rarely punishes their players with a "EPIC FAILTURE" screen.

Well unless you can get the Dreadnought to bear it's massive long range mass drivers on the Sovreign, especially since it's stationary target. 
Their weapons aren't listed as damaged and their superior velocity makes them the superior firepower.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Nikitn wrote...
What a retarded post - It also makes perfect sense to engage the Geth at once and save the DA, if only to get rid of the Geth and thus only contend with Sovreign.

You only attack the geths ship ATTACKING THE DA.
You aren't taking on all of the geth.