11391 réponses à ce sujet

[izmirtheastarach]

Quarters Alpha wrote...

No, I don't think that fans have to just enjoy everything that people release. But getting to the point where you're review bombing some dude's book? I know you guys don't think it, but even in books that you think are crap, someone has poured their heart and soul into it. And yet you all take no issue in tearing them apart, merely to express your fervent anger at details being wrong, or the quality not being what you prefer. Gamers have become the most entitled, critical fanbase I've ever seen, and they get worse by the day. It's no longer possible just to sit back and enjoy something, instead becoming necessary to pick apart every single negative detail in a book.

Honestly, you have no idea how easy it is to forget world basics when writing. Writers tend to focus on the emotional beats they want to hit first, and the specific details last. I write myself, and my brother has two published books himself, and no, I don't mean self-published. In my case, I have trouble remembering what I wrote even at the beginning of the book, let alone trying to keep an entire codex in my head.

You guys expect an inhuman task from these writers. They don't have all day to discuss every little detail, and to debate with other writers on forums, and to spend all their free time on it. They have others things to write, things to think about, basic editing to take care of.

But, I know you all don't care about that. Instead, just continue with how awful this book is, and how deserving this guy is of getting ridiculously berated, by all means. Don't let me spoil your fun.

If Bioware had taken any time at all to fact-check this book, 90% of the issues would have been avoided. It's really not that hard. The info is right there on the wiki.

And no one is reviewing the author. We're reviewing the book. It's not very good. When I kicked off the Amazon bomb, I was pretty careful to write what I felt to be a well thought out critical review. It's not a hate-piece. I just have a lot of issues with the book.

Amazon bombs are illegitimate when they are kicked off by something like a PR stunt, or a public statement by the author. But all the criticism here is because of the quality of the work. It's perfectly fair to criticise it. And I don't want anyone to regret purchasing the boook. So giving them the information the we have can only be helpful.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 31 janvier 2012 - 11:22 .

[JoePilot]

Don't feed the troll.

Bioware may eventually issue a response, but without an explanation of how and why this travesty happened, it will ring hollow.

[Death By Smiley]

Quarters Alpha wrote...

No, I don't think that fans have to just enjoy everything that people release. But getting to the point where you're review bombing some dude's book? I know you guys don't think it, but even in books that you think are crap, someone has poured their heart and soul into it. And yet you all take no issue in tearing them apart, merely to express your fervent anger at details being wrong, or the quality not being what you prefer. Gamers have become the most entitled, critical fanbase I've ever seen, and they get worse by the day. It's no longer possible just to sit back and enjoy something, instead becoming necessary to pick apart every single negative detail in a book.

Honestly, you have no idea how easy it is to forget world basics when writing. Writers tend to focus on the emotional beats they want to hit first, and the specific details last. I write myself, and my brother has two published books himself, and no, I don't mean self-published. In my case, I have trouble remembering what I wrote even at the beginning of the book, let alone trying to keep an entire codex in my head.

You guys expect an inhuman task from these writers. They don't have all day to discuss every little detail, and to debate with other writers on forums, and to spend all their free time on it. They have others things to write, things to think about, basic editing to take care of.

But, I know you all don't care about that. Instead, just continue with how awful this book is, and how deserving this guy is of getting ridiculously berated, by all means. Don't let me spoil your fun.

Honestly, and I'm gong to sound like a bad person, but I don't care about how much he "tried." If a doctor pours his heart and soul into a surgery, and as a result gets someone killed or maimed because he botches it, he's a bad doctor. If a taxi driver tells you "Hey, I don't know how to get where you're going, so I'll just drive around racking up the meter before dropping you off somewhere random," he's a bad cab driver.

So when a writer takes a story, writes it poorly, breaks with the agreed standards of the Universe, and kills off characters we've come to enjoy in terrible ways, then he's a bad writer.

His emotions are best left to the discussion of beauty pagent contestants, because for everyone else, it's the product that matters.

[Hedera]

Quarters Alpha wrote...
You guys expect an inhuman task from these writers. They don't have all day to discuss every little detail, and to debate with other writers on forums, and to spend all their free time on it. They have others things to write, things to think about, basic editing to take care of.

Basic lore of the series isn't that hard.  I have written a few things, and when you work with a universe, staying within its bounds is a bit important to making the story good.  Even so, the guys at Bioware should have caught it.  Balls are being dropped and its up to us, the fans to catch them.  We're not hounding this guy because of some... inconsistencies.  We're hounding him because Bioware allowed his novel to be released without even checking anything in it.

[Yuoaman]

didymos1120 wrote...

AVPen wrote...

Quick lore question, but was Kaidan also part of the "Biotic Acclimation and Temperance Training" program like Hendel was?

If he was, did he ever mention anything about the program also being designed to alienate the program students from their families?

Cause that's what Deception claims, at least.... 

That's accurate:

Kahlee assumed his parents still lived there, though they were no longer a part of his life. Her dysfunctional relationship with Grissom was nothing compared to Hendel and his family. He hadn’t spoken to them in over twenty years; not since they’d abandoned him to the Biotic Acclimation and Training program when he was a teenager. The BAaT program, in contrast to the openness the Ascension Project enjoyed at the Grissom Academy, had taken place in a top-secret military facility before it was shut down as a dismal failure. The minds behind the program had wanted the BAaT instructors to act without interference from the families, so they had made every effort to convince the parents that biotics were dangerous. They tried to make them feel ashamed and even afraid of their own children, hoping to drive a wedge between the students and their families. In Hendel’s case they had done a wonderful job.

It also demonstrates the way Dietz seems to have gone through Drew's books to find stuff he could just paste in with a bit of rewriting.

SCHOLAR TO THE RESCUE.

[AVPen]

didymos1120 wrote...

AVPen wrote...

Quick lore question, but was Kaidan also part of the "Biotic Acclimation and Temperance Training" program like Hendel was?

If he was, did he ever mention anything about the program also being designed to alienate the program students from their families?

Cause that's what Deception claims, at least.... 

That's accurate:

Kahlee assumed his parents still lived there, though they were no longer a part of his life. Her dysfunctional relationship with Grissom was nothing compared to Hendel and his family. He hadn’t spoken to them in over twenty years; not since they’d abandoned him to the Biotic Acclimation and Training program when he was a teenager. The BAaT program, in contrast to the openness the Ascension Project enjoyed at the Grissom Academy, had taken place in a top-secret military facility before it was shut down as a dismal failure. The minds behind the program had wanted the BAaT instructors to act without interference from the families, so they had made every effort to convince the parents that biotics were dangerous. They tried to make them feel ashamed and even afraid of their own children, hoping to drive a wedge between the students and their families. In Hendel’s case they had done a wonderful job.

It also demonstrates the way Dietz seems to have gone through Drew's books to find stuff he could just paste in with a bit of rewriting.

Got it... the way it's worded in Deception, you'd think that the program basically brainwashed the students into refusing to interact with their families. <_<

[JoePilot]

The book is indefensible. Those defending it are either Dietz, or trolls (heh, redundant), but there it is.

[Yuoaman]

AVPen wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

AVPen wrote...

Quick lore question, but was Kaidan also part of the "Biotic Acclimation and Temperance Training" program like Hendel was?

If he was, did he ever mention anything about the program also being designed to alienate the program students from their families?

Cause that's what Deception claims, at least.... 

That's accurate:

Kahlee assumed his parents still lived there, though they were no longer a part of his life. Her dysfunctional relationship with Grissom was nothing compared to Hendel and his family. He hadn’t spoken to them in over twenty years; not since they’d abandoned him to the Biotic Acclimation and Training program when he was a teenager. The BAaT program, in contrast to the openness the Ascension Project enjoyed at the Grissom Academy, had taken place in a top-secret military facility before it was shut down as a dismal failure. The minds behind the program had wanted the BAaT instructors to act without interference from the families, so they had made every effort to convince the parents that biotics were dangerous. They tried to make them feel ashamed and even afraid of their own children, hoping to drive a wedge between the students and their families. In Hendel’s case they had done a wonderful job.

It also demonstrates the way Dietz seems to have gone through Drew's books to find stuff he could just paste in with a bit of rewriting.

Got it... the way it's worded in Deception, you'd think that the program basically brainwashed the students into refusing to interact with their families. <_<

Yeah, it wasn't that at all - they were just letting out some bad information to make them more willing to send their children away.

[izmirtheastarach]

didymos1120 wrote...

It also demonstrates the way Dietz seems to have gone through Drew's books to find stuff he could just paste in with a bit of rewriting.

It's bizarre, because he some cases he gets things right. But sometimes he just assumed he understands how things are supposed to work, and sometimes he just makes things up. I think he spent SOME time looking this stuff up, but clearly no where near enough time.

[JamesFaith]

Quarters Alpha wrote...

No, I don't think that fans have to just enjoy everything that people release. But getting to the point where you're review bombing some dude's book? I know you guys don't think it, but even in books that you think are crap, someone has poured their heart and soul into it. And yet you all take no issue in tearing them apart, merely to express your fervent anger at details being wrong, or the quality not being what you prefer. Gamers have become the most entitled, critical fanbase I've ever seen, and they get worse by the day. It's no longer possible just to sit back and enjoy something, instead becoming necessary to pick apart every single negative detail in a book.

Honestly, you have no idea how easy it is to forget world basics when writing. Writers tend to focus on the emotional beats they want to hit first, and the specific details last. I write myself, and my brother has two published books himself, and no, I don't mean self-published. In my case, I have trouble remembering what I wrote even at the beginning of the book, let alone trying to keep an entire codex in my head.

You guys expect an inhuman task from these writers. They don't have all day to discuss every little detail, and to debate with other writers on forums, and to spend all their free time on it. They have others things to write, things to think about, basic editing to take care of.

But, I know you all don't care about that. Instead, just continue with how awful this book is, and how deserving this guy is of getting ridiculously berated, by all means. Don't let me spoil your fun.

I'm writting more then ten years. I'm able to spend month by research on short story, no mention something longer, before I first time touch keyboard. I have clasissal paper block full of notes. I'm checking every science, historical or geografical detail on net. 

And I telling this book is really, really badly written both styllistic and factographic. 

[bleetman]

Quarters Alpha wrote...

No, I don't think that fans have to just enjoy everything that people release. But getting to the point where you're review bombing some dude's book? I know you guys don't think it, but even in books that you think are crap, someone has poured their heart and soul into it. And yet you all take no issue in tearing them apart, merely to express your fervent anger at details being wrong, or the quality not being what you prefer. Gamers have become the most entitled, critical fanbase I've ever seen, and they get worse by the day. It's no longer possible just to sit back and enjoy something, instead becoming necessary to pick apart every single negative detail in a book.

I'm a consumer. I have expectations. Expectations that, by definition, I expect to be met in order to satisfy my requirements for whatever product I'm purchasing. Likewise, whoever is supplying whatever product is being discussed has a responsibility to maintain standards of quality. It's a basic, fundamental hallmark of professionalism.

Under absolutely no conditions am I required to coddle someone by pretending their work is not up to standard if it clearly, obviously isn't. They're not my children, and I'm not magnet-sticking their finger painting to my fridge. This is a published book that I'm being asked to pay money for.

So yes, when a book of this unbelievably poor quality - both in terms of writing and in actually sticking to pre-established characterisation and backstory - emerges? I'm going to tear it to pieces, and advocate that everyone else does so, in the interests of getting the point across to others who might be considering purchasing it. I will not, under any circumstances, accept something so phenominally subpar and I see no good reason whatsoever why I should be expected to, or to pretend otherwise.

Modifié par bleetman, 31 janvier 2012 - 11:27 .

[Arkitekt]

The issue about "thousands die everyday at the citadel" was kinda abused imo. It's unlikely that a 23rd intra galactic civilization has such a death rate but it's not ludicrous and may have other reasons. For instance, some species could die very young relative 2 human standards.

Of course, I doubt these considerations ever went through Dietz's mind

[JamesFaith]

AVPen wrote...

Quick lore question, but was Kaidan also part of the "Biotic Acclimation and Temperance Training" program like Hendel was?

If he was, did he ever mention anything about the program also being designed to alienate the program students from their families?

Cause that's what Deception claims, at least.... 

This one is right, it was also told in Ascencion.

[MissOuJ]

Quarters Alpha wrote...

No, I don't think that fans have to just enjoy everything that people release. But getting to the point where you're review bombing some dude's book? I know you guys don't think it, but even in books that you think are crap, someone has poured their heart and soul into it. And yet you all take no issue in tearing them apart, merely to express your fervent anger at details being wrong, or the quality not being what you prefer. Gamers have become the most entitled, critical fanbase I've ever seen, and they get worse by the day. It's no longer possible just to sit back and enjoy something, instead becoming necessary to pick apart every single negative detail in a book.

Honestly, you have no idea how easy it is to forget world basics when writing. Writers tend to focus on the emotional beats they want to hit first, and the specific details last. I write myself, and my brother has two published books himself, and no, I don't mean self-published. In my case, I have trouble remembering what I wrote even at the beginning of the book, let alone trying to keep an entire codex in my head.

You guys expect an inhuman task from these writers. They don't have all day to discuss every little detail, and to debate with other writers on forums, and to spend all their free time on it. They have others things to write, things to think about, basic editing to take care of.

But, I know you all don't care about that. Instead, just continue with how awful this book is, and how deserving this guy is of getting ridiculously berated, by all means. Don't let me spoil your fun.

I'm not expecting any inhuman efforts. But if the lore of the world you're writing about is trivial, then you're not doing your job properly.

And as someone who writes on a regular basis - if you're not capable of producing a coherent text, there's something wrong. First drafts being sloppy is understandable. That's normal, and that's what editors are for. And no one expects you to remember everything you've ever writen, but tha's why you have notes and drafts: you can go back and check. In adition, in this case at least, there has been a huge amount of information available. Even a single Google search could have prevented a great number of these mistakes. If you make this many mistakes, you've not made your job properly.

And a person who doesn't do his job deserves chriticism. And a person who engages in queer- and disability erasure deserves my hate.

Modifié par MissOuJ, 31 janvier 2012 - 11:28 .

[Yuoaman]

Arkitekt wrote...

The issue about "thousands die everyday at the citadel" was kinda abused imo. It's unlikely that a 23rd intra galactic civilization has such a death rate but it's not ludicrous and may have other reasons. For instance, some species could die very young relative 2 human standards.

Of course, I doubt these considerations ever went through Dietz's mind

Well, they also have a pretty substantial police force in the form of C-Sec, and I think they'd at least do a decent job.

[NOD-INFORMER37]

(*To those who have already finished reading the book*)

I havent started reading the M.E books yet but is Deception really so bad that it'll ruin them for me when I do? I mean are there things about the characters and the story that are completely out of place? Or is it just many small errors? Dietz(the author) wrote a Halo book with a few errors here and there but the book was still good. So if its the same deal with Deception then I wouldnt mind.

Just give me an honest answer though, I know how worked up some fans can get(no offence) and sometimes exaggerate how bad things really are.

[didymos1120]

Arkitekt wrote...

The issue about "thousands die everyday at the citadel" was kinda abused imo. It's unlikely that a 23rd intra galactic civilization has such a death rate but it's not ludicrous and may have other reasons. For instance, some species could die very young relative 2 human standards.

Of course, I doubt these considerations ever went through Dietz's mind

That's not even the really ridiculous part:  right after that the novel states that 22% of all daily deaths on the Citadel are human.  And yet, the vast majority of the population is non-human. 

[bleetman]

NOD-INFORMER37 wrote...

I havent started reading the M.E books yet but is Deception really so bad that it'll ruin them for me when I do? I mean are there things about the characters and the story that are completely out of place?

To the first, entirely probably. To the second, a simple "yes". Dozens of them. To the point of, say, one character with a fairly severe mental condition in previous books being described as 'growing out of it' and consequently acting like an entirely different person.

Modifié par bleetman, 31 janvier 2012 - 11:32 .

[Yuoaman]

NOD-INFORMER37 wrote...

(*To those who have already finished reading the book*)

I havent started reading the M.E books yet but is Deception really so bad that it'll ruin them for me when I do? I mean are there things about the characters and the story that are completely out of place? Or is it just many small errors? Dietz(the author) wrote a Halo book with a few errors here and there but the book was still good. So if its the same deal with Deception then I wouldnt mind.

Just give me an honest answer though, I know how worked up some fans can get(no offence) and sometimes exaggerate how bad things really are.

It is absolutely horrid - the errors are basically one to a page at this point, and they guy's writing is beyond sub-par - any given high school student could write better - yeah even the guy who brushes his teeth with ketchup.

[izmirtheastarach]

MissOuJ wrote...

I'm not expecting any inhuman efforts. But if the lore of the world you're writing about is trivial, then you're not doing your job properly.

And as someone who writes on a regular basis - if you're not capable of producing a coherent text, there's something wrong. First drafts being sloppy is understandable. That's normal, and that's what editors are for. And no one expects you to remember everything you've ever writen, but tha's why you have notes and drafts: you can go back and check. In adition, in this case at least, there has been a huge amount of information available. Even a single Google search could have prevented a great number of these mistakes. If you make this many mistakes, you've not made your job properly.

And a person who doesn't do his job deserves chriticism. And a person who engages in queer- and disability erasure deserves my hate.

Yeah, I didn't want to feel like I was jumping on that poster but really, what they were saying was: doing your job is really hard. 

Yeah, it is. I'm sure that Dietz was not compensated for his work with a bucket of KFC. We was payed cash money. For work. If you don't do good work, in what world do we not have a right to criticise said work?

[SkyJackal]

NOD-INFORMER37 wrote...

(*To those who have already finished reading the book*)

I havent started reading the M.E books yet but is Deception really so bad that it'll ruin them for me when I do? I mean are there things about the characters and the story that are completely out of place? Or is it just many small errors? Dietz(the author) wrote a Halo book with a few errors here and there but the book was still good. So if its the same deal with Deception then I wouldnt mind.

Just give me an honest answer though, I know how worked up some fans can get(no offence) and sometimes exaggerate how bad things really are.

Read the first three. Good books. Skip Deception. Pretend it never happened. That's what we're trying to do. And get Bioware to do

Modifié par SkyJackal, 31 janvier 2012 - 11:31 .

[Yuoaman]

didymos1120 wrote...

Arkitekt wrote...

The issue about "thousands die everyday at the citadel" was kinda abused imo. It's unlikely that a 23rd intra galactic civilization has such a death rate but it's not ludicrous and may have other reasons. For instance, some species could die very young relative 2 human standards.

Of course, I doubt these considerations ever went through Dietz's mind

That's not even the really ridiculous part:  right after that the novel states that 22% of all daily deaths on the Citadel are human.  And yet, the vast majority of the population is non-human. 

Yeah, even without having the exact numbers on hand that would mean like every day 2 or 3% of the human population dies.

The hell.

[felipejiraya]

NOD-INFORMER37 wrote...

(*To those who have already finished reading the book*)

I havent started reading the M.E books yet but is Deception really so bad that it'll ruin them for me when I do? I mean are there things about the characters and the story that are completely out of place? Or is it just many small errors? Dietz(the author) wrote a Halo book with a few errors here and there but the book was still good. So if its the same deal with Deception then I wouldnt mind.

Just give me an honest answer though, I know how worked up some fans can get(no offence) and sometimes exaggerate how bad things really are.

The core issues of the books story arc are there but it's surrounded by general lore errors that **** up the whole experience.

[WizenSlinky0]

Quarters Alpha wrote...

No, I don't think that fans have to just enjoy everything that people release. But getting to the point where you're review bombing some dude's book? I know you guys don't think it, but even in books that you think are crap, someone has poured their heart and soul into it. And yet you all take no issue in tearing them apart, merely to express your fervent anger at details being wrong, or the quality not being what you prefer. Gamers have become the most entitled, critical fanbase I've ever seen, and they get worse by the day. It's no longer possible just to sit back and enjoy something, instead becoming necessary to pick apart every single negative detail in a book.

Honestly, you have no idea how easy it is to forget world basics when writing. Writers tend to focus on the emotional beats they want to hit first, and the specific details last. I write myself, and my brother has two published books himself, and no, I don't mean self-published. In my case, I have trouble remembering what I wrote even at the beginning of the book, let alone trying to keep an entire codex in my head.

You guys expect an inhuman task from these writers. They don't have all day to discuss every little detail, and to debate with other writers on forums, and to spend all their free time on it. They have others things to write, things to think about, basic editing to take care of.

But, I know you all don't care about that. Instead, just continue with how awful this book is, and how deserving this guy is of getting ridiculously berated, by all means. Don't let me spoil your fun.

I don't normally do this, so be proud you will briefly see my serious face!

First off I will concede that, as with all things, some people choose to take their rage out in uncivil and unfortunate ways. This is a necessary evil of the emotion we call "passion". However, in your feverent defense you fall into the same unfortunate passionate plea rittled with generalizations and insults. Perhaps it hit home for you and you had some of your own writing lambasted at some point. But when you put out a product consumers expect a certain general level of objective quality even before subjective feelings come into play about lore, characterizations, and other matters. This book did not meet those objective standards by any stretch.

To call out not just a few posters, but the entire community, for feeling "entitled" and being "too critical"? Really? So you're fine if you purchase things, or allow others to purchase without prior warning, that are not just below average or not just worth it...but that devastates everything you know about the world you've been asked to be a part of?

I try to stay light hearted and humerous about the situation because I don't like getting worked up about things. Yet I still see an inherent need for a community to express when in many ways the consumers were shafted. There will be agressive dislike of ANY writing, sure, but the absolute backlash this has caused should be a indicator that it isn't just the community winding itself up pointlessly.

Do I believe anybody should purposely go out of their way to attack Dietz as a writer or person? No (unless the joke is really really funny), but you're calling people out for expressing just how bad this book is through reviews and other ways? If you want to defend it against the few, do so. Leave the rest with legitmate concerns and a desire to make sure others are aware of them out of your self-rightous responses.

Please and thank you, and have a wonderful day! Don't forget to brush your teeth.

Modifié par WizenSlinky0, 31 janvier 2012 - 11:33 .