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[What a Succulent Ass]

You know, horrid editors or not, I actually can't believe he said he was "proud" of this. There's such a thing as pride in craftsmanship; if I wrote this, I would be ashamed to even upload it to FF.net.

...Or maybe he's proud that he's banking with such minimal effort?

[izmirtheastarach]

Random Jerkface wrote...

You know, horrid editors or not, I actually can't believe he said he was "proud" of this. There's such a thing as pride in craftsmanship; if I wrote this, I would be ashamed to even upload it to FF.net.

...Or maybe he's proud that he's banking with such minimal effort?

It's odd, because even without the errors in the lore the writing is still terrible.

[Iohanna]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

It's odd, because even without the errors in the lore the writing is still terrible.

And it hits you right in the face. That's what triggered my warning signs at first. Then combine that with the rest and... yeah.

And seriously, when you mention casual peeing in a vase, no mater your writing skill, you are looking at a colossal failure. I mean, come on, isn't there anything else you could focus on? You have to shift our attention to the characters going about fulfilling their daily needs?

Modifié par Iohanna, 27 janvier 2012 - 12:18 .

[Zhuinden]

mineralica wrote...

What surprises me most about peeing
episode is that rather gory details - gory to "I'd like to not read this
part, and if I have to, I would like to not get mental images" - and
definitely childish things are neighbouring in one novel:

The most interesting part is that these are about two or three pages apart.

I think he figured the word "pee" was absolutely normal and suiting for this scenario.


Yet, I can't stop but wonder - isn't this just a trick to sway people's attention off that in a series of events, it seems to work like this: "He did this, as that was to be done. Five seconds later, that was done. Three moments past, the world was at peril. A second ago, he was drinking tea. At last, the revolution began".

Something like that, it seems like a bunch of time phrases and actions, or a summary of things
happening in the outer world, enclosed by "Such were Leng’s thoughts".

But whenever I read there are too many points of view - I don't think we ever truly see any real personal thoughts, do we? They don't seem like... thoughts. I personally do not feel personal connection to the characters whatsoever, and that comes from the writing itself.
(Though of course, I guess POV here refers to who's the center of events, and not that we actually see the situation from their.. point of view.)

...though it might be just me.

Random Jerkface wrote...

You know, horrid editors or not, I actually can't believe he said he was
"proud" of this. There's such a thing as pride in craftsmanship; if I
wrote this, I would be ashamed to even upload it to FF.net.

I actually think he might actually believe that his work was correctly done and fulfills its purpose as a piece of art new addition to the ME Universe - a job well-done. And I am sort of curious if his other works are as equally bad, or worse.


...I'm not an expert, nor a writer myself - but I don't claim to be one.

Modifié par Zhuinden, 27 janvier 2012 - 12:35 .

[Yuoaman]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

Random Jerkface wrote...

You know, horrid editors or not, I actually can't believe he said he was "proud" of this. There's such a thing as pride in craftsmanship; if I wrote this, I would be ashamed to even upload it to FF.net.

...Or maybe he's proud that he's banking with such minimal effort?

It's odd, because even without the errors in the lore the writing is still terrible.

I'm starting to think that there was some sort of bet that led to this... book.

[ZLurps]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

What comes to other things, first they artificially make Gillian and Nick 18 years old and then make it like a story for younger audience, but wouldn't it make more sense to leave Gillian and Nick to what their age actually is according to timeline?

They can't be 15 because of what he does with them. There are multiple reasons that become clear when you read through all the material you can access with the experts and the limited preview.

I wonder how Drew feels about this.

Modifié par ZLurps, 27 janvier 2012 - 12:21 .

[ZLurps]

Zhuinden wrote...

But whenever I read there are too many points of view - I don't think we ever truly see any real personal thoughts, do we?
They don't seem like... thoughts. I personally do not feel personal  connection to the characters whatsoever, and that comes from the writing itself.
(Though of course, I guess POV here refers to who's the center of events, and not that we actually see the situation from their.. point of view.)


...though it might be just me.

Characters of Deception have as much depth as paper dolls.

[Yuoaman]

ZLurps wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

What comes to other things, first they artificially make Gillian and Nick 18 years old and then make it like a story for younger audience, but wouldn't it make more sense to leave Gillian and Nick to what their age actually is according to timeline?

They can't be 15 because of what he does with them. There are multiple reasons that become clear when you read through all the material you can access with the experts and the limited preview.

I wonder how Drew feels about this.

I can't imagine what it must feel like to have characters you created made unrecognizable.

[rapscallioness]

It's just certain things in here that bother me. Plunking the description of Salarians down in the middle of a paragraph with no cohesion whatsoever. Like he literally just inserted a brief description right there because he forgot about it. Then he said, "There."

The use of the word "feelingly". "'My God,' the asari Council member said feelingly." It just isn't done because...it's empty. What kind of feeling? Plus, I'm not seeing it. Show me what's going on. And 'feelingly' is just a crap word.

The peeing in the vase is actually an interesting detail, imo. The part that bothers me in that sentence is the "something happened". Don't tell me "something happened". Just tell me wth happened.

Grammar; typos; capitalization issues....and I'm sure there's comma abuse going on. I mean, you don't get everything right. You miss some typos, or grammar issues, However, this is to the point that it breaks immersion.

I don't like bashing on artists, whatever the medium, because being an artist is already a soul crushing endeavor. It is not a field for the weak. I think there was a good story in there, but he basically beat down into the ground.

He wants me to read the whole book. Give it a chance. Disregard the first 50 pages. But that doesn't happen in the real world. You don't have a whole book to convince an agent, or a publisher to take on your work. You're lucky if they struggle through 50 pages. Those first couple of pages better be darn good. Your target audience will be even less patient.Heck, if your first sentence sucks, you're screwed.

It seems to me that they were relying on an established fanbase to carry them. They figured they had a pretty good platform in place. Easy market. Everyone's hyped for ME3....so....we'll let it slide. I feel like novels for video games should not be held to a lower standard. That less should be expected from it. It's still a story. Make it great. Make it polished. Make it the best you can do. Why not? Friggin' blow their minds with the great quality.

Bah. I'm done with this. Mr. Dietz, I'm sorry. And your response was very cool, and very professional. Which can't be easy when someone's ragging on your work. It's a lot harder than what it looks. But next time...and there will be a next time...step it up for us. You know? Punch above your weight.

[Clay Curragh]

Ok, this thread delivered. And how...
I couldn't stop laughing for the past 20 minutes or so. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png

Could someone PM me the ending as well, I just have to know now!

[Relix28]

rapscallioness wrote...

It's just certain things in here that bother me. Plunking the description of Salarians down in the middle of a paragraph with no cohesion whatsoever. Like he literally just inserted a brief description right there because he forgot about it. Then he said, "There."

The use of the word "feelingly". "'My God,' the asari Council member said feelingly." It just isn't done because...it's empty. What kind of feeling? Plus, I'm not seeing it. Show me what's going on. And 'feelingly' is just a crap word.

The peeing in the vase is actually an interesting detail, imo. The part that bothers me in that sentence is the "something happened". Don't tell me "something happened". Just tell me wth happened.

Grammar; typos; capitalization issues....and I'm sure there's comma abuse going on. I mean, you don't get everything right. You miss some typos, or grammar issues, However, this is to the point that it breaks immersion.

I don't like bashing on artists, whatever the medium, because being an artist is already a soul crushing endeavor. It is not a field for the weak. I think there was a good story in there, but he basically beat down into the ground.

He wants me to read the whole book. Give it a chance. Disregard the first 50 pages. But that doesn't happen in the real world. You don't have a whole book to convince an agent, or a publisher to take on your work. You're lucky if they struggle through 50 pages. Those first couple of pages better be darn good. Your target audience will be even less patient.Heck, if your first sentence sucks, you're screwed.

It seems to me that they were relying on an established fanbase to carry them. They figured they had a pretty good platform in place. Easy market. Everyone's hyped for ME3....so....we'll let it slide. I feel like novels for video games should not be held to a lower standard. That less should be expected from it. It's still a story. Make it great. Make it polished. Make it the best you can do. Why not? Friggin' blow their minds with the great quality.

Bah. I'm done with this. Mr. Dietz, I'm sorry. And your response was very cool, and very professional. Which can't be easy when someone's ragging on your work. It's a lot harder than what it looks. But next time...and there will be a next time...step it up for us. You know? Punch above your weight.

God, I hope not. At least for Mass Effect.

[izmirtheastarach]

rapscallioness wrote...

I don't like bashing on artists, whatever the medium, because being an artist is already a soul crushing endeavor. It is not a field for the weak. I think there was a good story in there, but he basically beat down into the ground.

No artist here. This is contract work of the lowest calibre. The fact that Dietz's response includes a claim that he cares just as much about his tie-in work as he does about his own originals was the last straw for me. He's either lying or he's crazy, if he thinks that this book is up to anyone's standard of quality.

[Luigitornado]

didymos1120 wrote...

Luigitornado wrote...

The "Most Egregious Violation Of Lore" award:

One that had been sprung so successfully that now, two years later, some of the damage the sentient machines had caused was still being repaired.

Geth. Geth are also the sentient machines. And they were mostly successful in attacking the citadel.

In context, it refers to the Reapers. Or maybe Dietz just doesn't know the difference.  Who the hell knows?  In any case, that's not the main problem with that sentence.  Think about it: what was the trap in the first game?  And did it succeed?

ETA:  Here.  I'll just quote the whole paragraph:

As Anderson led the others aboard a public shuttle he was reminded of the fact that the Reapers had created the Citadel as bait for a high-tech trap. One that had been sprung so successfully that now, two years later, some of the damage the sentient machines had caused was still being repaired.

It could go either way. They were sucessful in springing part of the trap

[rapscallioness]

izmirtheastarach wrote...

rapscallioness wrote...

I don't like bashing on artists, whatever the medium, because being an artist is already a soul crushing endeavor. It is not a field for the weak. I think there was a good story in there, but he basically beat down into the ground.

No artist here. This is contract work of the lowest calibre. The fact that Dietz's response includes a claim that he cares just as much about his tie-in work as he does about his own originals was the last straw for me. He's either lying or he's crazy, if he thinks that this book is up to anyone's standard of quality.

That line struck me as well. It made me feel like there was this mental separation for him. I feel like even though it's based on the ME universe, it's still your original work. How you chose to deliver it. The voice you use. Btw, no one said you didn't care as much. It was one of those weird psychology 101 moments. The fact that he even said it made me feel like he actually viewed it as...less. Perhaps, I'm overthinking. Whatever

I'm gonna take a stroll around the forum now. Peace.

[CROAT_56]

ZLurps wrote...

izmirtheastarach wrote...

ZLurps wrote...

What comes to other things, first they artificially make Gillian and Nick 18 years old and then make it like a story for younger audience, but wouldn't it make more sense to leave Gillian and Nick to what their age actually is according to timeline?

They can't be 15 because of what he does with them. There are multiple reasons that become clear when you read through all the material you can access with the experts and the limited preview.

I wonder how Drew feels about this.

According to Dietz, Bioware made him change the ages to 18 so its a good question

[Wulfram]

Yuoaman wrote...

Wait, he's using his sniper rifle to watch people? What if he sneezes?

Hey, Garrus and Shepard do that in Garrus's recruitment mission

[MrFob]

The thing with this book is that from what I have seen (and admittedly I haven't seen that much yet), it's not only all the lore errors in there, the language and writing style itself is really bad. At least in my opinion, Dietz uses way too much weird and colloquial constructions like "he was somewhat of an adrenaline junkie" and lines like "she triggered the biotic power called 'charge'."
I mean, is the power name "charge" not just a gameplay mechanic? I was under the impression from the previous books that in universe they don't really have these distinct names and classifications. People just use biotics.
I might be wrong on that but in any case, this sounds way too 'gamey' and more than that, in every bit I have read so far I had at least one instance where the language was almost cringe worthy.
Not that the other ME novel are master peices of literature or anything but I feel like the dropped again quite a bit with this one.

Modifié par MrFob, 27 janvier 2012 - 01:58 .

[izmirtheastarach]

CROAT_56 wrote...

According to Dietz, Bioware made him change the ages to 18 so its a good question

Where did he say that? Just curious, because whether they did or didn't, it's what he wanted to do with them the required the change.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 27 janvier 2012 - 01:44 .

[Dylan Dogood]

A have little Mormon trick...
Imagine that the Mass Effect franchise is made of tiny boxes.
And find the box that's made by William Dietz and CRUSH IT!

[izmirtheastarach]

MrFob wrote...

The thing with this book is that from what I have seen (and admittedly I haven't seen that much yet), it's not only all the lore errors in there, the language and writing style itself is really bad. A least in my opinion,

I sort of struggle with calling it your opinion. I mean of all the forms of media we have, writing has been around the longest. It's the most developed. Bad writing is bad writing. I think we have enough of a consensus on this to know that this is bad writing, plain and simple. Soif it's your opinion, it's mine too. I can pick up a book off the shelfand read a couple of pages, and see bad writing. Normally I would neverread a book like that. But I'd be willing to give this a chance if there was anything else redeeming about it. But there just isn't.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 27 janvier 2012 - 01:49 .

[Zhuinden]

MrFob wrote...

 the language and writing style itself is really bad. A leat in my opinion, Dietz uses way too much weird and colloquial constructions like "he was somewhat of an adrenaline junkie"

Many weeks of effort had been required to track
the object from the point where it had been stolen
to the batarian homeworld and the ancient city of Thondu.

Does this - the very first sentence - count as one?

Hey, I never really noticed this at the very beginning.

Acknowledgments
First a salute to Drew Karpyshyn for the excellent
novels that preceded this one and made Mass Effect:
Deception possible.
Plus many thanks to Casey Hudson, Mac Walters, and
Tricia Pasternak for their advice and guidance.

Modifié par Zhuinden, 27 janvier 2012 - 11:15 .

[LGTX]

And I'll say it once again that the Flood was nowhere as bad as Deception. It had actual depth in background research, cohesive sentences and believable character interaction. The problem most people had with it was its periodic setting, making it a retelling of a story well-known. With Deception, where much more creative freedom was allowed, his quality actually degraded... Which nudges me towards the unpleasant thought that he simply phoned it in.

But I still don't get it... All the grammar quips, glaring lore inconsistencies... This WAS run through editors and Bioware supervisors, right...? Please say no...

And yet... I'll still buy the book and pray that at least basic vocabulary correctness is restored.

Modifié par LGTX, 27 janvier 2012 - 02:00 .

[What a Succulent Ass]

I mean, is the power name "charge" not just a gameplay mechanic? I was under the impression from the previous books that in universe they don't really have these distinct names and classifications. People just use biotics.

Except for gravitational singularity (because that is an IRL concept), they don't have names. Dietz, however, seems to be of the opinion that biotics are much like Pokémons: they continually reach "Levels" until they reach their final evolved form, the "adept."

[Cheesy Blue]

I think Deception is a pretty cool guy. Eh pisses in vases and doesn't afraid of anything.

[izmirtheastarach]

Random Jerkface wrote...

I mean, is the power name "charge" not just a gameplay mechanic? I was under the impression from the previous books that in universe they don't really have these distinct names and classifications. People just use biotics.

Except for gravitational singularity (because that is an IRL concept), they don't have names. Dietz, however, seems to be of the opinion that biotics are much like Pokémons: they continually reach "Levels" until they reach their final evolved form, the "adept."

That level part is the worst. I did not realize how stupid that was till didy made the connection for me. Dietz read some notation about L2 and L3 implants, and from this assumed that this meant level 2 and level 3. Of some sort of rating system. Like even the world in the book is an RPG somehow.

Modifié par izmirtheastarach, 27 janvier 2012 - 02:24 .