277 réponses à ce sujet

[TobyHasEyes]

 - yawn - 

[Someone With Mass]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, you're beging stupid.

Once dominance is achieved, there would be no need for such experiments anymore.
Cerberus does these experiments because it knows it doesn't have time to go the slow steady and less ethicly quiestionable route.
If the reapers are defeated and humanity achieves dominance...then all Cerberus goals are accomplished.

I'd rather takes human dominance under Cerberus than the dominance of the stupid Council trio...

Keep telling yourself that. I'm sure it'll become true if you believe in it hard enough.

[DRUNK_CANADIAN]

i kept it alive all times.

I personally side with Cerebrus on a number of things, that and at the very least I owe TIM one.

[incinerator950]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, you're beging stupid.

Once dominance is achieved, there would be no need for such experiments anymore.
Cerberus does these experiments because it knows it doesn't have time to go the slow steady and less ethicly quiestionable route.
If the reapers are defeated and humanity achieves dominance...then all Cerberus goals are accomplished.

I'd rather takes human dominance under Cerberus than the dominance of the stupid Council trio...

Keep telling yourself that. I'm sure it'll become true if you believe in it hard enough.

It might ironically if he keeps pressing the game, or it will backfire on a one point linear script.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Someone With Mass wrote...
Keep telling yourself that. I'm sure it'll become true if you believe in it hard enough.

Well, I'd rather suffer Cerberus AND their experiments than the Council and their bad leadership and Specters.

[darkiddd]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, you're beging stupid.

Once dominance is achieved, there would be no need for such experiments anymore.
Cerberus does these experiments because it knows it doesn't have time to go the slow steady and less ethicly quiestionable route.
If the reapers are defeated and humanity achieves dominance...then all Cerberus goals are accomplished.

I'd rather takes human dominance under Cerberus than the dominance of the stupid Council trio...

Keep telling yourself that. I'm sure it'll become true if you believe in it hard enough.

Cerberus brings the quote "the end justify the means" to the extreme. They would still do those jerk experiments even after the reapers had been defeated. And I bet 90% of the time they wouldn't even reach their end because let's be honest here. Cerberus usually fails with all they do.

Experiments with rachni- rachni break free on a ship and a colony

Experiments with husks turning colonists into those things- errr... i don't know? people turning into those things? what was the point of doing that to begin with?

Experiments with thorian creepers- thorian plague on another colony

Experiments with thresher maws- two units of alliance marines dead and for what?

Experiments with geth- david takes control of the geth and kills every cerberus operative, almost happens an electronic apocalipse. Because it was totally unpredictable to guess this is what would happen when you plug painfully an autistic and emotionally unstable boy to a machine.

Experiments with reaper tech on grayson- grayson breaks free, kills an entire turian squad, many people on omega, and sends data from the grissom academy to the reapers.

Cerberus tries to retrieve Gillian and unleashes hell on a quarian ship- they don't retrieve Gillian, so many dead for nothing.

Cerberus studies prothean data- one of their operatives sends the info to the geth, other finds out, they fight, everyone dies, the geth now go for the data.

Cerberus studies a "dead" reaper- all the crew ends up indoctrinated, they became husks.


Cerberus pays the blue suns to give them jak- the blue suns betray cerberus and try to capture shepard.

Cerberus builds a biotic program- the station goes rogue, they make horrific experiments on childs, childs rebel, jak kills everyone and escapes.

Cerberus assassinates a ONU diplomat and tries to replace him with one of their own- the diplomat chosen is not who they wanted.

The only thing Cerberus ever did right unquestionably was to resurrect shepard and the new normandy, and even that was almost ****ed up when Wilson tried to sabotage the lazarus project activating the mechs.

That's why I always call Cerberus Failberus. And that's why I never ever give the collector base to them.
Having said all this I can't question the charisma the Illusive man has. But I don't agree with him. I could agree with him if they weren't so extreme and if they actually obtained results more often than not. Because sometimes the phrases "the end justitfy the means" or "the needs of the many outweight the needs of the few" make sense, but only when you actually have results 







 

[Iamnotahater]

Luc0s wrote...

Icemix wrote...

Luc0s wrote...

Icemix wrote...

Luc0s your biased opinion about Cerberus is really annoying. I would like to give credit to Bioware for not making it entirely clear if TIM is evil or not.

And how exactly is my opinion on Cerberus "biased"?

Last time I checked, opinions are always biased.

opinion == bias

So your comment doesn't make much sense.


But how is my bias any worse than yours? 


What I find annoying is the extremely blind and idealistic bias against Cerberus from the Paragon idealists in this thread.

Its because you think your opinion is the right one and you go all defensive when someone doesn't think like you.

My opinion is not "right" per-see. At it looks like now, Cerberus is going to betray us in ME3. That means my opinion was wrong.

However, I do insist in the fact that my opinion is the most logical one. My opinion might not be right, but it is the most logical point of view. Period.

Icemix wrote...

What I find great with the writing in ME2 is that they didn't give us a clear view on what is Cerberus all about, do they really want to help humanity or is TIM really only trying to increase his dominace. They left that to the player to chose based on the information they provide in ME1/ME 2 and that is amazing.

What I find amazing is that there are players who don't see that this totally doesn't matter. What I find amazing is that some players believe their distrust in Cerberus justifies blowing up the Collector base. It doesn't.

What I find amazing is that people stare themselves so blind at Cerberus' ambiguous motivations that they forget about the REAL threat: THE MOTHERF*CKING REAPERS!

Right now, ALL your hope of survival lies in stopping THE REAPERS, not Cerberus. Cerberus is a minor concern. We can worry about Cerberus later. Right now, all you need to know is that Cerberus is also trying to stop the reapers, so right now they are a temporary ally.

And even if you don't trust Cerberus and don't want to ally with them, you should at least acknowledge that that Collector base is a big source of knowledge and intel on the reapers. Knowledge and intel we need if we wish to stand any chance against the reapers.

Icemix wrote...

I didn't trust TIM, never did, blew up that base every time.

And the Americans didn't trust the Russians. But what do you think would have happened during WW2 if the Americans used the same kind of reasoning as you did? What if the Americans refused to work together with the Russians to stop the German Na-zi's? Or worse, what if the Americans deliberately sabotaged the Russians' weapons with the excuse: "We don't trust the Russians, so we blow up their nukes. Oh, the Germans are the real problem you say? Nahhhhh who cares. We can stop the Germans without the Russians. Right people? Right.. people...?"

The Americans understood that they had to put their opinions on Sovjet Russia aside for the time being. They understood that Na-zi Germany was the real problem. They'd settle their differences with the Russians after WW2.

So why can't you understand this?

Unlike others I had no problem working with cerberus for our mutual goal (destroying the reapers). But just because I'm working with TIM (Stalin) doesn't mean I'm going to give him the base (codes to our nuclear arsenal)

The logical choice is to either keep the base for the Alliance/Council or destroy the base so noone can have it. Since I wasn't given choice number 1. I choose 2. You want to give the key to galaxy wide domination and mass genocide to a madman go ahead.

Let me know how that works out for you. I didn't meta-game either. I had no idea when the reapers were going to come. I thought if TIM used the tool for what I believed he wanted to by the time the reapers arrived and it came to fight them there would be noone worth saving.

[Eclipse_9990]

Iamnotahater wrote...

Unlike others I had no problem working with cerberus for our mutual goal (destroying the reapers). But just because I'm working with TIM (Stalin) doesn't mean I'm going to give him the base (codes to our nuclear arsenal)

The logical choice is to either keep the base for the Alliance/Council or destroy the base so noone can have it. Since I wasn't given choice number 1. I choose 2. You want to give the key to galaxy wide domination and mass genocide to a madman go ahead.

Let me know how that works out for you. I didn't meta-game either. I had no idea when the reapers were going to come. I thought if TIM used the tool for what I believed he wanted to by the time the reapers arrived and it came to fight them there would be noone worth saving.

To be honest if I had the option to give the Reaper tech to the Council, I probably wouldn't have glassed that base. 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

No, you're beging stupid.

Once dominance is achieved, there would be no need for such experiments anymore.
Cerberus does these experiments because it knows it doesn't have time to go the slow steady and less ethicly quiestionable route.
If the reapers are defeated and humanity achieves dominance...then all Cerberus goals are accomplished.

I'd rather takes human dominance under Cerberus than the dominance of the stupid Council trio...

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 26 janvier 2012 - 08:08 .

[Goneaviking]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Someone With Mass wrote...

Luc0s wrote...
Because last time I checked, I'm a human. So of course "human dominance" lies in my line of interests. Why the hell would any human want another alien species in a dominant position?

Since you're a human, human dominance would be benefitial for you. Derp.

If Cerberus is the leader and cause of that domination? Hardly.

I'd walk around in constant fear of being kidnapped as a part of some twisted experiment or something that causes the whole society to revert back to the dark ages because of a super-intelligent AI that went loose and started to wreck everything. Or in fear of anything Cerberus is doing in general, since they can't contain collateral damage for s**t.

No, you're beging stupid.

Once dominance is achieved, there would be no need for such experiments anymore.
Cerberus does these experiments because it knows it doesn't have time to go the slow steady and less ethicly quiestionable route.
If the reapers are defeated and humanity achieves dominance...then all Cerberus goals are accomplished.

I'd rather takes human dominance under Cerberus than the dominance of the stupid Council trio...

Once dominance is achieved the experiments will be dialled up because that dominance will need to be maintained. The other races, especially the council races, aren't going to lie down and let humans steamroll them into eternity, they're going to utilise their own resources to overthrow a human-centric hegemony which will place humanity and their Cerberus overlords on a permanent warfooting.

By contrast Humanity already has a representative on the council, and thus is one of the most powerful factions in the game already. Given time there'll be more humans in important positions throughout the Citadel government and humanity will gain more parity and respect among the council races.

Ruling from within the council's coalition is preferable to attempting to rule alone because it means that there will be more resources available for governance and defence. More importantly it lends a veneer of legitimacy to the hegemonic factions because it's not one nation lording it over all the others, so it appears more collaborative, and theoretically any race that proves its worth and can acquire sufficient resources can earn its own seat at the table.

Humanity on the council equals longterm stability and widespread influence. Humancentric junta equals resistance and eventual overthrow.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Goneaviking wrote...
Humanity on the council equals longterm stability and widespread influence. Humancentric junta equals resistance and eventual overthrow.

Lol....yea right...

[Goneaviking]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...
Humanity on the council equals longterm stability and widespread influence. Humancentric junta equals resistance and eventual overthrow.

Lol....yea right...

An erudite and educated response, I am humbled by your rhetorical prowess.

[ParagonForLife]

daqs wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

You are living in a dream world. You cannot stop dominance.
Someone will be dominating one way or another. Why NOT humans?

Single-hegemon systems are notoriously difficult to maintain. The few that have succeeded for any length of time have tended to rely on overwhelming advantages (like China having by far the greatest population and resources of any of the East Asian states, more than the rest of the region combined, for basically its entire history) instead of temporary system shocks.

Humanity doesn't have those advantages. We don't outnumber the asari, turians, salarians, etc. We don't have a vastly superior military. We aren't biologically superior to any of them in any real way. The foundation of human hegemony would be a temporary system shock, the Battle of the Citadel. And it is almost certain to fail, unless humanity somehow managed to acquire systemic, long-term advantages, or unless humanity somehow made its hegemony appealing to the rest of the galaxy. I don't see the first one happening; Earth is on the brown end of the stick in ME3. And I don't see the second happening, for the simple reason that no state in human history has managed to do it.

By rights, a human-ruled Citadel Council should end up exactly the same as Napoleonic Europe (1807-12), the Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere (1937/40-45), or Hitlerite Europe (1940-44).

And they allways end bloody so yea humanity might rule the galaxy for a few decades or maybe even a hundred or so years but there will come a time when all races rebel agianst us and exterminate all humans from the galaxy

[Lotion Soronarr]

Iamnotahater wrote...
Unlike others I had no problem working with cerberus for our mutual goal (destroying the reapers). But just because I'm working with TIM (Stalin) doesn't mean I'm going to give him the base (codes to our nuclear arsenal)

The logical choice is to either keep the base for the Alliance/Council or destroy the base so noone can have it. Since I wasn't given choice number 1. I choose 2. You want to give the key to galaxy wide domination and mass genocide to a madman go ahead.

Madman? Mass genocide?
You have silly ideas there....

The logical choise is to keep the base.

[Lotion Soronarr]

Goneaviking wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...
Humanity on the council equals longterm stability and widespread influence. Humancentric junta equals resistance and eventual overthrow.

Lol....yea right...

An erudite and educated response, I am humbled by your rhetorical prowess.

Pft.
Like I want to bother writing long reposnse to that. There is no need, since you areally aren't making any point and can't back it up.

A galaxy dominated by humans can be as stable as any other. There's plenty of variables involved, but I guess taking that into account would be too taxing for you?
Just as taking into acoutn what dominance actually means..

Because obviously human dominance means us taking over military style and ruling with an iron fist. That's hte ONLY thing it cna POSSIBLY mean..right?<_<

[G3rman]

Considering your choice of how humans come to domination, through Cerberus-backed support, yes I would say military style ruling would come off as a matter-of-course.

[Eclipse_9990]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Goneaviking wrote...
Humanity on the council equals longterm stability and widespread influence. Humancentric junta equals resistance and eventual overthrow.

Lol....yea right...

An erudite and educated response, I am humbled by your rhetorical prowess.

Pft.
Like I want to bother writing long reposnse to that. There is no need, since you areally aren't making any point and can't back it up.

A galaxy dominated by humans can be as stable as any other.

Right because the planet we're on right now is doing just fine under human rule. Plenty of stability right? 

Humanity can barely make things work on one planet, and yet somehow you think humanity should rule an entire galaxy? You have far too much faith in the human race. Far too much.  

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 26 janvier 2012 - 09:09 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...
Right because the planet we're on right now is doing just fine under human rule. Plenty of stability right? 

Humanity can barely make things work on one planet, and yet somehow you think humanity should rule an entire galaxy? You have far too much faith in the human race. Far too much. 

the Systems Alliance seem to be doing just fine.

And unless you can prove aliens are doing a better job....oh wait - you can't.
you have far too little faith in humanity.

[Eclipse_9990]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...
Right because the planet we're on right now is doing just fine under human rule. Plenty of stability right? 

Humanity can barely make things work on one planet, and yet somehow you think humanity should rule an entire galaxy? You have far too much faith in the human race. Far too much. 

the Systems Alliance seem to be doing just fine.

And unless you can prove aliens are doing a better job....oh wait - you can't.
you have far too little faith in humanity.

Hey the aliens were pretty well off before humanity was even dug up so yeah. I don't see how you can think the human race is such a big deal. Yeah they did one awesome thing, the creation of Medi-Gel, but thats one thing.

What else makes you think that humanity is such a big deal, and has the right to rule the galaxy?

And won't end up blowing it up at some point. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 26 janvier 2012 - 09:17 .

[G3rman]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...
the Systems Alliance seem to be doing just fine.

And unless you can prove aliens are doing a better job....oh wait - you can't.
you have far too little faith in humanity.

Clearly you have little faith as well if you think the best way for humanity to come to power is giving strength to a terrorist organization.

[Icemix]

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Iamnotahater wrote...
Unlike others I had no problem working with cerberus for our mutual goal (destroying the reapers). But just because I'm working with TIM (Stalin) doesn't mean I'm going to give him the base (codes to our nuclear arsenal)

The logical choice is to either keep the base for the Alliance/Council or destroy the base so noone can have it. Since I wasn't given choice number 1. I choose 2. You want to give the key to galaxy wide domination and mass genocide to a madman go ahead.

Madman? Mass genocide?
You have silly ideas there....

The logical choise is to keep the base.

So your idea to help humanity againts the Reapers is to leave all this Reaper tech in the hands of a racist terrorist organization that has failed at pretty much everything that its attempted? You seem so convinced that TIM gives a damn about the greater good of humanity, but as much as claims to, he just doesn't. Seems like you have some silly ideas there.

[Medhia Nox]

I agree with Lotion - an America dominated by Americans has been nothing but a paragon of stability. There hasn't been a shred of inequality under our European invader leaders.

Alexander, Temujin, Napoleon, General Cao Cao, the Ceasars - they were all just great humanitarians hoping for "stability"!

====

What the "aliens" have done.

- Volus, intergalactic mercantile system.

- Asari, founding an intergalactic government.

- Turians, peace keepers

- Salarians, despite "how" they did it - saved the galaxy from the Rachni.

- The Elcor, Hamlet.

=====

There's plenty of stories of the galaxy working JUST FINE under the rule of the aliens long before mankind shows up. They're just not the stories being told.

=====

And I have extrodinarily little faith in a bunch of upjumped apes.

Modifié par Medhia Nox, 26 janvier 2012 - 09:21 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Eclipse_9990 wrote...
Hey the aliens were pretty well off before humanity was even dug up so yeah. I don't see how you can think the human race is such a big deal. Yeah they did one awesome thing, the creation of Medi-Gel, but thats one thing.

What else makes you think that humanity is such a big deal, and has the right to rule the galaxy?

And won't end up blowing it up at some point.

What makes you think the aliens are a big deal?
What gives them the right to rule?

Clearly you have little faith as well if you think the best way for
humanity to come to power is giving strength to a terrorist
organization.

Cerberus isn't a terrorist organization

[Eclipse_9990]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I agree with Lotion - an America dominated by Americans has been nothing but a paragon of stability. There hasn't been a shred of inequality under our European invader leaders.

Alexander, Temujin, Napoleon, General Cao Cao, the Ceasars - they were all just great humanitarians hoping for "stability"!

====

What the "aliens" have done.

- Volus, intergalactic mercantile system.

- Asari, founding an intergalactic government.

- Turians, peace keepers

- Salarians, despite "how" they did it - saved the galaxy from the Rachni.

- The Elcor, Hamlet.

=====

There's plenty of stories of the galaxy working JUST FINE under the rule of the aliens long before mankind shows up. They're just not the stories being told.

=====

And I have extrodinarily little faith in a bunch of upjumped apes.

Are you my long lost twin or something? 

Lotion Soronnar wrote...

Eclipse_9990 wrote...
Hey the aliens were pretty well off before humanity was even dug up so yeah. I don't see how you can think the human race is such a big deal. Yeah they did one awesome thing, the creation of Medi-Gel, but thats one thing. 

What else makes you think that humanity is such a big deal, and has the right to rule the galaxy?

And won't end up blowing it up at some point. 

What makes you think the aliens are a big deal?
What gives them the right to rule?

Hey they've been ruling the galaxy pretty well for the most part in the past millenia or so, I'd say they're a big deal. Plus the Asari, Salarians, Turians, and Volus seem to balance each other out pretty well. I'm pretty fine with them. 

Modifié par Eclipse_9990, 26 janvier 2012 - 09:25 .

[Lotion Soronarr]

Medhia Nox wrote...

I agree with Lotion - an America dominated by Americans has been nothing but a paragon of stability. There hasn't been a shred of inequality under our European invader leaders.

Alexander, Temujin, Napoleon, General Cao Cao, the Ceasars - they were all just great humanitarians hoping for "stability"!

Ever heard of Pax Romana?
And how the roman empire influenced the wrold?

Modifié par Lotion Soronnar, 26 janvier 2012 - 09:23 .

[AVPen]

darkiddd wrote...

Cerberus brings the quote "the end justify the means" to the extreme. They would still do those jerk experiments even after the reapers had been defeated. And I bet 90% of the time they wouldn't even reach their end because let's be honest here. Cerberus usually fails with all they do.

Experiments with rachni- rachni break free on a ship and a colony

Experiments with husks turning colonists into those things- errr... i don't know? people turning into those things? what was the point of doing that to begin with?

Experiments with thorian creepers- thorian plague on another colony

Experiments with thresher maws- two units of alliance marines dead and for what?

Experiments with geth- david takes control of the geth and kills every cerberus operative, almost happens an electronic apocalipse. Because it was totally unpredictable to guess this is what would happen when you plug painfully an autistic and emotionally unstable boy to a machine.

Experiments with reaper tech on grayson- grayson breaks free, kills an entire turian squad, many people on omega, and sends data from the grissom academy to the reapers.

Cerberus tries to retrieve Gillian and unleashes hell on a quarian ship- they don't retrieve Gillian, so many dead for nothing.

Cerberus studies prothean data- one of their operatives sends the info to the geth, other finds out, they fight, everyone dies, the geth now go for the data.

Cerberus studies a "dead" reaper- all the crew ends up indoctrinated, they became husks.


Cerberus pays the blue suns to give them jak- the blue suns betray cerberus and try to capture shepard.

Cerberus builds a biotic program- the station goes rogue, they make horrific experiments on childs, childs rebel, jak kills everyone and escapes.

Cerberus assassinates a ONU diplomat and tries to replace him with one of their own- the diplomat chosen is not who they wanted.

The only thing Cerberus ever did right unquestionably was to resurrect shepard and the new normandy, and even that was almost ****ed up when Wilson tried to sabotage the lazarus project activating the mechs.

That's why I always call Cerberus Failberus. And that's why I never ever give the collector base to them.