27 réponses à ce sujet

[Spinotech]

Boredom can do terrible things including an insanity shredder ammo Engineer.  My planned build is:

Area Overload
Incinerate - 3
Full Cryo Blast
AI Hacking - 1
Combat Drone - 2
Mechanic
Improved Shredder Ammo

For this build I intend to use the combat drone for distraction against larger enemies, area overload for enemies with shields, incinerate for burning through armor, and full cryo blast for crowd control.  For weapons I plan to get the assault rifle on the collector ship and then use the mattock with improved shredder ammo.

Squadmates that I am likely to use are: Miranda, Zaeed, Garrus, Kasumi, Thane, and Samara.  I also plan on using Grunt and Mordin against the blood pack and husks.

Have I lost my mind or does this build have potential?

Modifié par Spinotech, 26 janvier 2012 - 01:40 .

[ryoldschool]

Actually, CaolIla did a build similar to this, execpt instead of using shredder ammo, he used dominate.  He used the drone very little, but it was viable and he had a lot of fun.

I don't know about shredder ammo - kind of hard to invest 10 points in that.

[RedCaesar97]

Spinotech wrote...
Have I lost my mind or does this build have potential?

Are you sure you want that answered?

If you plan to have Full Cryo Blast, I am not sure that Shredder Ammo is worth it. Also, Demolisher (+15% power damage) plus Amplifier Plates (+5% power damage) would increase Shredder Ammo to +100% organic health damage.

Personally, If I were going to use Shredder Ammo on an Engineer (which I have tried with some mixed results), I would go with:

4 - Area Overload
4 - Incineration Blast
4 - Attack Drone
1 - Cryo Blast
0 - AI Hacking
4 - Demolisher
4 - Improved Shredder Ammo

Mordin and his evolved Cryo Blast (4.5s base cooldown) should be a permanent squadmate with any Overload-Incinerate Engineer, since you can effectively alternate powers: You Overload/Incinerate > Mordin freezes > Shoot the popsicles > Repeat.

Synthetic-heavy missions are obviously not Shredder Ammo-friendly, but the above strategy still works: You strip defenses, Mordin freezes.

For Tali's Recruitment Mission, you can always re-train to AP Ammo or (preferrably) take Zaeed with Squad Disruptor Ammo. The only other synthetic-heavy missions are Tali's Loyalty (you Overload, Tali hacks and/or Mordin freezes), Legion's Loyalty (same thing), and Jacob's Loyalty (you Incinerate, Mordin freezes). Samara and Thane's Recruitment missions have mechs, but not enough to really worry about.

[capn233]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

Are you sure you want that answered?

Maybe the only bonus power I have never used.  It's going to stay that way.

[RedCaesar97]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...

Demolisher (+15% power damage) plus Amplifier Plates (+5% power damage) would increase Shredder Ammo to +100% organic health damage.

Actually I think it' s 80%*(100%+20%)=96%. However you can get to 104% with Demolisher + Blood Dragon Armor.

I am somewhat confused by that math. Do you have the source?

For ammo powers that provide +x% damage, I think any +x% power damage bonuses from armor and passives are added to that total. So for Improved Shredder Ammo (+80% weapon damage), +15% from Demolisher and +5% from Amplifier Plates would give you +100% weapon damage against organic health.

But again, Ammo Powers that don't offer CC (i.e. anything except Inferno, Disruptor, and Cryo) are pretty much useless since their damage do not benefit from any upgrades.

I am of the opinion that every little bit helps, but I also acknowledge that you are highly unlikely to notice that extra damage. I agree that the three crowd-control (CC) ammo powers are superior the pure damage-based ammo powers.

Demolisher + Blood Dragon Armor is still highly recommended for any Overload + Incinerate Engineer though.

I am unsure about that. On Insanity, that the extra damage would certainly help early game (particularly on NG+) to strip Shields and Armor from basic goons, but it will never be enough for tougher enemies. I have no data to back that up though.

[HolyAvenger]

Hmm I'm going to do an Engineer run next, but this seems like a rather awful bonus power. I'll probably play vanilla engineer as I've never actually done that.

[Spinotech]

Thanks for the feedback. I think I will go with the build RedCaesar97 posted.

[Onpoint17]

Shredder ammo is highly underrated. On a Mattock an unprotected enemy can be taken down with 1-3 squeezes of the trigger depending on where you're aiming. I was shocked how easily you can go through a crowd and mow them down in seconds. I think this ammo is probably best on an Infiltrator although I usually go with Improved Flashbangs on them as the bonus power.

I just started a Stasis Engineer a few days ago and find him to be pretty much unstoppable.

[capn233]

Onpoint17 wrote...

Shredder ammo is highly underrated. On a Mattock an unprotected enemy can be taken down with 1-3 squeezes of the trigger depending on where you're aiming.

So how many trigger pulls will that unprotected enemy go down with if you are using Inferno or Tungsten?

[RedCaesar97]

iOnlySignIn wrote...
I suggest testing (again, I can't run FRAPs, would someone else do this please):

I will try to test this the first chance I get, although not for another 24 hours at least, so if someone else wants to take a crack at it in the meantime, be my guest.

Modifié par RedCaesar97, 27 janvier 2012 - 02:56 .

[capn233]

Damage_Per_Shot_vsDefence =
B * ( 1+ BonusPowerMod1+..)* AmmoDmgMod * AmmoVsDefenceModifier +
+ B * (1+DamageMod1+..+HeadShotBonus^+RangeMod) * WpnVsDefenceModifier.

The Power Damage portion is the first part:
B * ( 1+ BonusPowerMod1+..)* AmmoDmgMod * AmmoVsDefenceModifier
Where B is base damage.

So... in the above example with total power upgrades are 0.15 and 0.05, Shredder at 0.8

B*(1+ 0.15 + 0.05) * 0.8 *1 = B*(1.20)*0.8*1 = 0.96B or 48.384 for the Mattock against health (base 50.4)

Tungsten would be 42.336 and Inferno would be a little more complicated (since it is over time) but eventually it would do 36.288 per shot.

Note, this is simply the ammo contribution to damage.  Also note that Tungsten and Inferno do that damage per shot to Armor as well.  Tungsten also does that damage to synthetic health.  Inferno does 9.072 per shot DoT to synthetic health as fire has a 0.25 multiplier against synthetics.

Modifié par capn233, 27 janvier 2012 - 05:01 .

[capn233]

Since I feel like doing some maths...

Let's also give the character the headshot visor. Level 3 AR upgrades, and AR penetration.


Damage_Per_Shot_vsDefence = B * ( 1+ BonusPowerMod1+..)* AmmoDmgMod * AmmoVsDefenceModifier +
+ B * (1+DamageMod1+..+HeadShotBonus^+RangeMod) * WpnVsDefenceModifier

Mattock: B = 50.4
Headshot bonus: 0.6
Tungsten Ammo: 0.7 armor, any health
Shredder Ammo: 0.8 organic health
Inferno Ammo: 0.6 armor, 0.6 DoT organic health, 0.15 synthetic health
Range Modifier: 0 (we'll just use this because I don't know all the range correlations )

Mattock headshot organic health

No ammo
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0 * 0 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0.6+0) * 1
= 0 + 95.76 = 95.76

Tungsten
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0.7 * 1 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0.6+0) * 1
= 42.336 + 95.76 = 138.096

Shredder
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0.8 * 1 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0.6+0) * 1
= 48.384 + 95.76 = 144.144

Inferno
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0.6 * 1 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0.6+0) * 1
= 36.288 + 95.76 = 132.048

Mattock bodyshot organic health

No ammo
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0 * 0 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0+0) * 1
= 0 + 65.52 = 65.52

Tungsten
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0.7 * 1 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0+0) * 1
= 42.336 + 65.52 = 107.856

Shredder
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0.8 * 1 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0+0) * 1
= 48.384 + 65.52 = 113.904

Inferno
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0.6 * 1 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0+0) * 1
= 36.288 + 65.52 = 101.808

Mattock headshot synthetic health

No ammo
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0 * 0 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0.6+0) * 1
= 0 + 95.76 = 95.76

Tungsten
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0.7 * 1 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0.6+0) * 1
= 42.336 + 95.76 = 138.096

Shredder
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0.8 * 0 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0.6+0) * 1
= 0 + 95.76 = 95.76

Inferno
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0.15 * 1 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0.6+0) * 1
= 9.072 + 95.76 = 104.832

Mattock bodyshot synthetic health

No ammo
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0 * 0 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0+0) * 1
= 0 + 65.52 = 65.52

Tungsten
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0.7 * 1 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0+0) * 1
= 42.336 + 65.52 = 107.856

Shredder
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0.8 * 0 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0+0) * 1
= 0 + 65.52 = 65.52

Inferno
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0.15 * 1 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0+0) * 1
= 9.072 + 65.52 = 74.592

Mattock headshot armor

No ammo
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0 * 0 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0.6+0.25+0) * 1.3
 = 0 + 140.868 = 140.868

Tungsten
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0.7 * 1 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0.6+0.25+0) * 1.3
 = 42.336 + 140.868 = 183.204

Shredder
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0.8 * 0 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0.6+0.25+0) * 1.3
 = 0 + 140.868 = 140.868

Inferno
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0.6 * 1 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0.6+0.25+0) * 1.3
 = 36.288 + 140.868 = 177.156

Mattock bodyshot armor

No ammo
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0 * 0 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0+0.25+0) * 1.3
 = 0 + 101.556 = 101.556

Tungsten
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0.7 * 1 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0+0.25+0) * 1.3
 = 42.336 + 101.556 = 143.892

Shredder
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0.8 * 0 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0+0.25+0) * 1.3
 = 0 + 101.556 = 101.556

Inferno
50.4 * ( 1+ 0.15 + .05 )* 0.6 * 1 + 50.4 * (1+0.3+0+0.25+0) * 1.3
 = 36.288 + 101.556 = 137.844

They would all do the same damage to barriers and shields (which would be 130.032 and 93.744 for headshot and bodyshots respectively).  Also while Inferno damage to health is applied over time, it is instant against armor.  The range modifiers are something I am not intimately familiar with.  0 is used at all ranges for the sniper rifles.  I think it denots mid-range for the others.  Point blank is supposed to be 1. These numbers exclude passive bonuses to power or weapon damage.  And it is only the armor as in the example earlier, plus the headshot visor.

edit... fixed the Mattock's multiplier for armor.

Modifié par capn233, 27 janvier 2012 - 05:47 .

[RedCaesar97]

iOnlySignIn wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...

I am somewhat confused by that math. Do you have the source?

For ammo powers that provide +x% damage, I think any +x% power damage bonuses from armor and passives are added to that total.

http://social.biowar...1143264#1673528
http://social.biowar...1143264#5460711

I may have messed up with my reading comprehension though.

I suggest testing (again, I can't run FRAPs, would someone else do this please):

(1) Rank 1 AP Ammo + Demolisher + Amplifier Plates

vs.

(2) Rank 3 AP Ammo + Mechanic

No other Power boosting armor piece for either.

By your formula they would be the same vs. Armor/Health. By mine, the latter will have about 39% more damage, which would be noticeable.

So I performed your test. I recorded the results.

According to my tests, you are correct: test 2 out-damages test 1.

BUT: I will need to perform one more test. I need to see if Power damage bonuses from armor and/or passive talents apply to ammo powers. If those power damage bonuses apply, then you are correct in your damage formula. If the power damage bonuses do not apply, then difference in damage is a result of rank 3 AP Ammo > rank 1 AP Ammo.

Modifié par RedCaesar97, 28 janvier 2012 - 11:44 .

[capn233]

Passive bonuses for power damage are supposed to be added to the sum in the parenthesis in the ammo damage portion of the equation, just like armor power bonuses are. That is how it is supposed to work anyway.

[RedCaesar97]

capn233 wrote...
Passive bonuses for power damage are supposed to be added to the sum in the parenthesis in the ammo damage portion of the equation, just like armor power bonuses are. That is how it is supposed to work anyway.

Passive bonuses for power damage, either from Armor or your class passive talent, are NOT added to Ammo Power damage bonuses. My tests just confirmed this. I should have the video posted within an hour of this post.

[RedCaesar97]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

iOnlySignIn wrote...

RedCaesar97 wrote...
For ammo powers that provide +x% damage, I think any +x% power damage bonuses from armor and passives are added to that total.

I suggest testing (again, I can't run FRAPs, would someone else do this please):

(1) Rank 1 AP Ammo + Demolisher + Amplifier Plates

vs.

(2) Rank 3 AP Ammo + Mechanic

No other Power boosting armor piece for either.

By your formula they would be the same vs. Armor/Health. By mine, the latter will have about 39% more damage, which would be noticeable.

So I performed your test. I recorded the results.

According to my tests, you are correct: test 2 out-damages test 1.

BUT: I will need to perform one more test. I need to see if Power damage bonuses from armor and/or passive talents apply to ammo powers. If those power damage bonuses apply, then you are correct in your damage formula. If the power damage bonuses do not apply, then difference in damage is a result of rank 3 AP Ammo > rank 1 AP Ammo.

So I ran a second test. It turns out that power damages from armor and the class passive talents are not applied to Ammo Powers.

So you were correct iOnlySignIn: Test 2 out-damaged Test 1, but that is because rank 3 AP Ammo deals more damage that rank 1 AP Ammo, and not because of a complicated weapon or power damage formula.

[Praetor Knight]

Interesting with the ammo power testing.

So then their only real value is their CC abilities, since it feels that the percentages are based solely off of the base weapon damage. For example, Inferno is simply a 60% increase off of the base weapon damage, with no other boosts to damage.

[capn233]

Predator Base = 37.2

Tungsten 0.7 multiplier

B*(1+...)*0.7*1

No power bonus
37.2(1)*0.7*1=26.04

30% bonus
37.2(1.3)*0.7*1=29.797

Can you see a difference of 3.7 damage on the health bar? I am asking because I can't answer that question. I would be reluctant to say that it would be easy to see. Especially considering that the "gun damage" against armor is 55.8 if you have no pistol upgrades at medium range...

So each shot was doing 81.84 or 85.597 theoretically... so the difference was about 4% of the total damage. If you had pistol upgrades that percentage would be lower.

There is also the question of whether the Blood Dragon Armor works correctly... various DLC pieces and characters have been known to not work right.

edit: Ammo damage supposedly also gets the same range "multiplier" as the gun damage...

Modifié par capn233, 29 janvier 2012 - 05:15 .

[ryoldschool]

Praetor Shepard wrote...

Interesting with the ammo power testing.

So then their only real value is their CC abilities, since it feels that the percentages are based solely off of the base weapon damage. For example, Inferno is simply a 60% increase off of the base weapon damage, with no other boosts to damage.

Well also in Eric F. quote about the ammo powers:

Keep in mind that ammo powers are still a completely separate damage call. Adrenaline Rush does not affect ammo power damage. Ammo powers are considered a power, so they get bonuses from power upgrades, not weapon upgrades, and they always take their initial damage value from the base weapon damage without upgrades. It's worth noting that ammo powers do get a distance multiplier like weapons. This was done to keep ammo power damage consistent, so when we say that an ammo power does X% of weapon damage, that is true for any range because it shares the distance multiplier of the weapon. 

Note that he says that the ammo powers "do get a distance multiplier like weapons".   But Red has already shown the the other part of Eric's statement did not hold up in the test.

[Praetor Knight]

I didn't think of with AR, that's a good point with distance multipliers.




Edit: this kind of stuff seems to get too complicated, too quickly. 

Modifié par Praetor Shepard, 29 janvier 2012 - 06:54 .

[RedCaesar97]

capn233 wrote...

Predator Base = 37.2

Tungsten 0.7 multiplier

B*(1+...)*0.7*1

No power bonus
37.2(1)*0.7*1=26.04

30% bonus
37.2(1.3)*0.7*1=29.797

Can you see a difference of 3.7 damage on the health bar? I am asking because I can't answer that question. I would be reluctant to say that it would be easy to see. Especially considering that the "gun damage" against armor is 55.8 if you have no pistol upgrades at medium range...

So each shot was doing 81.84 or 85.597 theoretically... so the difference was about 4% of the total damage. If you had pistol upgrades that percentage would be lower.

There is also the question of whether the Blood Dragon Armor works correctly... various DLC pieces and characters have been known to not work right.

edit: Ammo damage supposedly also gets the same range "multiplier" as the gun damage...

Hard to say if you would notice 4 extra damage on the health bar. These were the best conditions I could think of to test under: New Game+, Freedom's Progress. Weapons are at their weakest, Ammo powers at their strongest. As you get more weapon upgrades, the percent damage added by ammo powers decreases.

I tested on Hardcore difficulty so enemies would have armor, but the armor is still weak (2 shots nearly destroyed it completely) so you may have some noticeable difference. I also tested on Casual, so enemies had the weakest amount of health. 4 or 5 shots would have killed the mech.

And distance does matter at that spot. If I shot at the other mech, you would notice I that would take off less armor or health since it is farther away. I actually tried that for my first set of tests so I would have two LOKI mechs to compare, but the distance modifier was messing with the results, so I wanted to stay consistent for the best results.

In the end it does not really matter I suppose: the damage bonus provided by ammo powers are just not worth it. Only Warp Ammo on targets affected by biotics (Lift, Singularity) is worth it.

[CoffeeHolic93]

RedCaesar97 wrote...

capn233 wrote...

Predator Base = 37.2

Tungsten 0.7 multiplier

B*(1+...)*0.7*1

No power bonus
37.2(1)*0.7*1=26.04

30% bonus
37.2(1.3)*0.7*1=29.797

Can you see a difference of 3.7 damage on the health bar? I am asking because I can't answer that question. I would be reluctant to say that it would be easy to see. Especially considering that the "gun damage" against armor is 55.8 if you have no pistol upgrades at medium range...

So each shot was doing 81.84 or 85.597 theoretically... so the difference was about 4% of the total damage. If you had pistol upgrades that percentage would be lower.

There is also the question of whether the Blood Dragon Armor works correctly... various DLC pieces and characters have been known to not work right.

edit: Ammo damage supposedly also gets the same range "multiplier" as the gun damage...

Hard to say if you would notice 4 extra damage on the health bar. These were the best conditions I could think of to test under: New Game+, Freedom's Progress. Weapons are at their weakest, Ammo powers at their strongest. As you get more weapon upgrades, the percent damage added by ammo powers decreases.

I tested on Hardcore difficulty so enemies would have armor, but the armor is still weak (2 shots nearly destroyed it completely) so you may have some noticeable difference. I also tested on Casual, so enemies had the weakest amount of health. 4 or 5 shots would have killed the mech.

And distance does matter at that spot. If I shot at the other mech, you would notice I that would take off less armor or health since it is farther away. I actually tried that for my first set of tests so I would have two LOKI mechs to compare, but the distance modifier was messing with the results, so I wanted to stay consistent for the best results.

In the end it does not really matter I suppose: the damage bonus provided by ammo powers are just not worth it. Only Warp Ammo on targets affected by biotics (Lift, Singularity) is worth it.

 Is Warp Ammo even worth it? When an enemy is affected by biotics, or any kind of ragdoll they already take 100% more damage. WA would be a drop in the bucket when compared to that.