44 réponses à ce sujet

[InvincibleHero]

I have several problems with the characterization and presentation in ME2.

1. We have no idea what these thousands of things are that she punishes for. Animal fights aka varren by krogans on tuchanka merits death. So she is trustworthy when she could kill you for a rather specious reason? She will also willing kill innocents merely getting in her way just because it is more expedient/ Doesn't sound particularly good to me more like ultra-renegade.

2. Samara is egotistical if she thinks she can apply the code to non-asari. They are respected and tolerated by asari society only. If she killed an alliance person she would be a murderess subject to either council law or alliance law. Even Shepard is gulity of taking law into his own hands from time to time but at least can be a spectre with a right to do so. Their philosophy is not ours or any other race in ME. It has  no weight yet she thinks it applies and gives her right to be judge and jury over anyone. Sounds like delusions of grandeur to me.

Her pledge was quite ludicrous in that regard. She has no authority over Shepard. To try to kill him would be murder. Even on an asari world Shepard is under alliance and council law. People would not visit Illium if they knew they could be slain by a justicar for very alien reeasons. It would kill trade and be a diplomatic nightmare.

3. She does not weigh any circumstance or give compassion in any regard. Coldly killing helpless mercs and threatening a civilian cop on an asari world purely for being detained which would be temporary in any case. She was only willing to wait 24 hours when she chased Morinth for hundreds of years. It shows obsession and psychosis to adhere strongly to the code and her belief in her judgement and infallibility. She does not care if a person is otherwise good. Say gambling on the superbowl was a crime that merits death in her code and you did it once too bad you must die and she will not hesitate to do so.
 

[AdmiralCheez]

Tell me, what do you think of the strictly religious?

[ArcanistLibram]

So what? Why should Samara have to abide by your standards of morality?

[InvincibleHero]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Tell me, what do you think of the strictly religious?

It doesn't seem to me that her code is religious more like tenet of warrior monks. Samara professes no religiousity in any overt way. Zealots don't have to be religious and really too much rigidity has little application to anything really. it is almost never a good thing.

Let's keep this ME related since attacking people of faith or religions itself is against forums rules.

[InvincibleHero]

ArcanistLibram wrote...

So what? Why should Samara have to abide by your standards of morality?

Never said that. She either cooperates with Shepard to defeat the collectors because it is the right, moral, or insert reason thing to do or goes her own way. She had no need to pledge herself because said pledge is meaningless anyway.

[AdmiralCheez]

InvincibleHero wrote...

It doesn't seem to me that her code is religious more like tenet of warrior monks. Samara professes no religiousity in any overt way. Zealots don't have to be religious and really too much rigidity has little application to anything really. it is almost never a good thing.

Let's keep this ME related since attacking people of faith or religions itself is against forums rules.

Why?  You attack gays and women all the time.  Why should the religious be off-limits?

Her Code may not say anything about where she came from and where she's going when she dies, but it DOES give her very strict guidlines as to right and wrong.  She's devoted her life to a set of rules that are meant to make the galaxy better.  A set of rules that cannot be argued with, that are true because they exist, that are more important than life itself.

Hence, you know, religion.

[CrutchCricket]

InvincibleHero wrote...

I have several problems with the characterization and presentation in ME2.

1. We have no idea what these thousands of things are that she punishes for. Animal fights aka varren by krogans on tuchanka merits death. So she is trustworthy when she could kill you for a rather specious reason? She will also willing kill innocents merely getting in her way just because it is more expedient/ Doesn't sound particularly good to me more like ultra-renegade.

2. Samara is egotistical if she thinks she can apply the code to non-asari. They are respected and tolerated by asari society only. If she killed an alliance person she would be a murderess subject to either council law or alliance law. Even Shepard is gulity of taking law into his own hands from time to time but at least can be a spectre with a right to do so. Their philosophy is not ours or any other race in ME. It has  no weight yet she thinks it applies and gives her right to be judge and jury over anyone. Sounds like delusions of grandeur to me.

Her pledge was quite ludicrous in that regard. She has no authority over Shepard. To try to kill him would be murder. Even on an asari world Shepard is under alliance and council law. People would not visit Illium if they knew they could be slain by a justicar for very alien reeasons. It would kill trade and be a diplomatic nightmare.

3. She does not weigh any circumstance or give compassion in any regard. Coldly killing helpless mercs and threatening a civilian cop on an asari world purely for being detained which would be temporary in any case. She was only willing to wait 24 hours when she chased Morinth for hundreds of years. It shows obsession and psychosis to adhere strongly to the code and her belief in her judgement and infallibility. She does not care if a person is otherwise good. Say gambling on the superbowl was a crime that merits death in her code and you did it once too bad you must die and she will not hesitate to do so.
 

1. I don't exactly understand your critcism here. We don't know her full code therefore it's invalid? Do you know the entire criminal code of whatever area you live in? I would think not. And where does she say that she kills innocents to get at her target? If they are willingly impeding her, they're not innocents (as far as the Code is concerned)

2. Likely the code isn't specifically worded for just asari. It's probably more like "if you see an injustice (and here's thousands of definitions and case scenarios of what "injustice" is) you will fix it or die trying". I can see how justicars would apply this across the board. There's no question of authority or delusion here. The code says x is an injustice, fix it, you fix it. No exceptions. As far as respecting her authority, why do you think everyone was freaking out when she was on Illium? Precisely because other races might not accept her judgements. That's why justicars typically only stay in asari space. No asari would ever question them. If Shep was on Thessia and he did something a justicar would have to kill him for, no asari would batt an eyelash to help him. Of course there'd be a diplomatic scandal afterwards. But that's not the justicar's problem.

3 Yes... and? The Code isn't about compassion or circumstance. Like I said up top X is bad, fix X. That's it. She also mentions that if justicars are called in, typically the situation is beyond compassion or circumstance.

If you have philosophical problems with the Code, that's your business. But you can't exactly fault Samara for it because as far as we know she follows it to the letter as she should, and as she was sworn to do. If we encounter some other justicar later that paints a different picture, then maybe we have a discussion. As it is I'm not sure what the issue is.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 26 janvier 2012 - 04:38 .

[InvincibleHero]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

It doesn't seem to me that her code is religious more like tenet of warrior monks. Samara professes no religiousity in any overt way. Zealots don't have to be religious and really too much rigidity has little application to anything really. it is almost never a good thing.

Let's keep this ME related since attacking people of faith or religions itself is against forums rules.

Why?  You attack gays and women all the time.  Why should the religious be off-limits?

Her Code may not say anything about where she came from and where she's going when she dies, but it DOES give her very strict guidlines as to right and wrong.  She's devoted her life to a set of rules that are meant to make the galaxy better.  A set of rules that cannot be argued with, that are true because they exist, that are more important than life itself.

Hence, you know, religion.

Wow that accusation came out of nowhere and is patently false. I know the one part was purely because I posted a thread about male shep being canon. No insults towards women there just asome logical observations of how the game was marketed.  I have posted a thread about more advertising and they should use femshep awhile ago. Guess what Legendary pictures is using a male shep if it ever gets made. I predicted that.

My attempts were at mediating the positions of both sides in FFTL and was unfairly attacked for that. I never said gay romances would hurt the game or made any anti-slur against anyone of that chosen orientation. I have nothing against anyone and love women even misguided feminists. I don't insult anyone: race creed or orientation and certainly not all women or even people that call me names and insult me first. I think you should apologize, but my expectations are low on that.

She has list fo things that according to her justicar sect are prohibiitions or punishment for crimes under asari morality. Nowhere does it state they do it because the godess wills it. It did not seem to be presented as such by the devs in the game. They are respected by tradition because the justicars go way back. It is like their first set of laws and they are enforcers of the code. I don't really know why they would be tolerated in modern asari society with general codified laws but I guess because they are few in number and serve some purpose. I would bet if they get too far out of line they can be borught to justice.

Where does it state their aim is to make the galaxy better? I thought it was to enforce their moral code on the general asari public only given the presentation in the game.

[InvincibleHero]

vince vas iktomi wrote...

The way I see this 'code' is is how she said it best: "The Code does not exist to bring spiritual enlightenment.". Or something like that.

I see it as a set of rules one must abide by to bring justice to any and all, and said rules was established long before the creation of the Council. So I doubt these rules would be flexible with Council or Alliance laws.
I guess the Asari value tradition so much that they haven't changed these rules or the way they're supposed to be enforced.

But, of course, that's just my opinion. Don't mind me.

So you think they have a right to apply it to anyone asari or not or am I misinterpreting your words?

[AdmiralCheez]

InvincibleHero wrote...

I have nothing against anyone and love women even misguided feminists

....

*narrows eyes*

.... Sexist.

[AdmiralCheez]

InvincibleHero wrote...

So you think they have a right to apply it to anyone asari or not or am I misinterpreting your words?

I'm sure you have a set of rules you think everyone should obey that not everyone likes.

Sexist.

[InvincibleHero]

CrutchCricket wrote...

1. I don't exactly understand your critcism here. We don't know her full code therefore it's invalid? Do you know the entire criminal code of whatever area you live in? I would think not. And where does she say that she kills innocents to get at her target? If they are willingly impeding her, they're not innocents (as far as the Code is concerned)

2. Likely the code isn't specifically worded for just asari. It's probably more like "if you see an injustice (and here's thousands of definitions and case scenarios of what "injustice" is) you will fix it or die trying". I can see how justicars would apply this across the board. There's no question of authority or delusion here. The code says x is an injustice, fix it, you fix it. No exceptions. As far as respecting her authority, why do you think everyone was freaking out when she was on Illium? Precisely because other races might not accept her judgements. That's why justicars typically only stay in asari space. No asari would ever question them. If Shep was on Thessia and he did something a justicar would have to kill him for, no asari would batt an eyelash to help him. Of course there'd be a diplomatic scandal afterwards. But that's not the justicar's problem.

3 Yes... and? The Code isn't about compassion or circumstance. Like I said up top X is bad, fix X. That's it. She also mentions that if justicars are called in, typically the situation is beyond compassion or circumstance.

If you have philosophical problems with the Code, that's your business. But you can't exactly fault Samara for it because as far as we know she follows it to the letter as she should, and as she was sworn to do. If we encounter some other justicar later that paints a different picture, then maybe we have a discussion. As it is I'm not sure what the issue is.

1. People are suggesting Samara is a good person and the same about the code. They are making assumptions with no information. She would kill any an all cops that merely would detain her and with the village she killed brainwashed people who may not have posed a threat because it was easier or more expedient. She would quite happily kill all the Feros colonists which even a s a renegade I did not do.

2. The origins were on an asari world to apply to the asari people. To apply it elsewhere is indeed going beyond the scope. I think they need guidelines by asari law enforcement. It would be unacceptable to see them gun down people unaware of their code and not of their species to begin with. An execution would do that quite fine when they are tried for murder. I would hope it would not get that far. It is arrogance to think their morals are universal or that they have authority to do it anywhere. They have no legal standing to do so.

3. It is evidently far too radical and extreme and needs to be reigned in. If she would apply it to non-asari then she is an unfeeling zealot. So do you feel she would be justified to kill an undercover c-sec officer buying drugs because code dmeands it and she saw it? Actions without thought and learning  the circunstances are just set up for failure. She flat out says she doesn't want to know just execute them. To me that is monstrous.

[CrutchCricket]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

I have nothing against anyone and love women even misguided feminists

....

*narrows eyes*

.... Sexist.

lol.
typical BSN response:
RandomUser: *something not 100% in favor of same-sex or femShep*
TypicalBSNUser: *gasp! Racist! Homophobe! Sexist! All of the above! Burn it, burn it!

[InvincibleHero]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

I have nothing against anyone and love women even misguided feminists

....

*narrows eyes*

.... Sexist.

Nope misguided feminists hate men. I am saying I have no hate for even them. They can choose to believe as they wish.

[G3rman]

I still can't get over the fact you used the word 'murderess'. Honestly, why would society even bother coming up with that word, its just murderer.

[AdmiralCheez]

CrutchCricket wrote...

lol.
typical BSN response:
RandomUser: *something not 100% in favor of same-sex or femShep*
TypicalBSNUser: *gasp! Racist! Homophobe! Sexist! All of the above! Burn it, burn it!

Nah, this guy has a legit history of sexist and homophobic commentary, many of which may have been crafty trolling attempts.

Also I am making fun of myself.  Plus, you know, people who despise FemShep (for reasons other than voice acting) or are vehemently against s/s romance usually are sexist/homophobic.

[InvincibleHero]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

So you think they have a right to apply it to anyone asari or not or am I misinterpreting your words?

I'm sure you have a set of rules you think everyone should obey that not everyone likes.

Sexist.

Mainly the golden rule and not to murder steal or physically harm anyone except in self-defense.

I guess my 3 of six (playthrough) in both games playing fem-Shep  and half in Dragon Age (4 of 8)and other RPGs where I play women main characters is not enough. You are wrong. I have no idea why you continue to attack me but let it be or I will report harassment.

[AdmiralCheez]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Nope misguided feminists hate men. I am saying I have no hate for even them. They can choose to believe as they wish.

I'm a feminist, and I don't hate men.  The word you are looking for is "misandrist."

[InvincibleHero]

G3rman wrote...

I still can't get over the fact you used the word 'murderess'. Honestly, why would society even bother coming up with that word, its just murderer.

http://www.merriam-w...onary/murderess

I don't make up words.

[AdmiralCheez]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Mainly the golden rule and not to murder steal or physically harm anyone except in self-defense.

Well I think the golden rule is dumb because some people don't want the things I want, and I don't want the things they want.

I guess my 3 of six (playthrough) in both games playing fem-Shep  and half in Dragon Age (4 of 8)and other RPGs where I play women main characters is not enough. You are wrong. I have no idea why you continue to attack me but let it be or I will report harassment.

Remember the "canon Shepard is a straight male" thread you made?

Because I do.

[What a Succulent Ass]

What exactly is your point OP?

[G3rman]

You realize it was used in the 1300's yes? Do you use murderess in normal conversation? It's just murderer, your attempt to be fancy and politically correct is not necessary.

[AdmiralCheez]

Random Jerkface wrote...

What exactly is your point OP?

To ****** off the Samara fans, probably.  Just like his silly Canon Shepard thread from back in the day was clear flamebait.

To be honest, I think Samara's code is part of what makes her a fascinating character, even if I think it calls for her to be needlessly harsh.

[DiebytheSword]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
Well I think the golden rule is dumb because some people don't want the things I want, and I don't want the things they want.

I think people underthink that rule.  The point is to see things from others point of view before acting.  Not that I want to start a religious debate, but there is really no good reason not to follow the golden rule other than spiting religion because you hate the church or the people in it.

Most religions have a rule very similar to it for a good reason.