262 réponses à ce sujet

[Aimi]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Yeah, that's a completely blatant exaggeration. I believe that this game called homeworld put more thought into scaling tbh...

In HW a heavy cruiser cost around 5000 resources, and the standard fighter around 85. Small experimental stealth ships would be 1000 at the most. The cost of the building a cruiser hull alone should be equal to thousands of fighter ships.

I don't think that the Homeworld definitions of cruisers and frigates match up totally with the Mass Effect definitions. It's not a good comparison.

The US Navy, for instance, no longer possesses any guided missile frigates, because they were reclassified as cruisers between the 1970s and the 1990s. The difference between the two classes became so small that it eventually became academic. We're not talking vessels that are five times or more costly to build.

And, again, the lead ship of any class always costs more than production-level vessels.

[ParagonForLife]

daqs wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Yeah, that's a completely blatant exaggeration. I believe that this game called homeworld put more thought into scaling tbh...

In HW a heavy cruiser cost around 5000 resources, and the standard fighter around 85. Small experimental stealth ships would be 1000 at the most. The cost of the building a cruiser hull alone should be equal to thousands of fighter ships.

I don't think that the Homeworld definitions of cruisers and frigates match up totally with the Mass Effect definitions. It's not a good comparison.

The US Navy, for instance, no longer possesses any guided missile frigates, because they were reclassified as cruisers between the 1970s and the 1990s. The difference between the two classes became so small that it eventually became academic. We're not talking vessels that are five times or more costly to build.

And, again, the lead ship of any class always costs more than production-level vessels.

yea but the cost of stealth ships (billions of credits and the rarity of the resorces required) makes it impossible to build a fleet of normandy ships not to mention that you have to have a highly trained crew to operate the ship 

[G3rman]

Dewart wrote...

so since 1 normandy = 1 heavy cruiser
the cruiser has armor and is slow but the normandy is stealth and speed
and each cruiser probably has double or tripple the crew of a single normandy
so I would say if you fought a battle with a fleet of normandy it would save more human lives

The Normandy isn't a fighting ship though, sure it can hide from the Reapers for a period of time and probably avoid the occasional patrol but it has no teeth.

I'd sacrifice six cruisers of say 300 personnel total to destroy one reaper

over

Six Normandys that lost 150 and failed to destroy a reaper.

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

There is a 2 year gap between ME 2 and 3, right? MY ME obsession hasn't advanced to the point where I've been looking through comics and twitter to fill in the gaps... haven't even played some of the DLC yet.

Six months following Arrival is the start of ME3 IIRC.  The 2 years was start of ME2.

[Aimi]

ParagonForLife wrote...

 yea but the cost of stealth ships (billions of credits and the rarity of the resorces required) makes it impossible to build a fleet of normandy ships not to mention that you have to have a highly trained crew to operate the ship 

I agree, I'm just saying that the Normandy:heavy cruiser::1:1 cost comparison isn't totally outrageous like tetrisblock thinks it is.

[incinerator950]

Normandy is a unique class of Stealth Frigate. It was made to be modular so that upgrades can be improved.

The SR-2 Cerberus version is larger than the original frigate, and has a few upgrades with the modular interface. The Silaris Armor, Cyclonic Particle Shielding, and Thanix Cannon are all prototype upgrades, and most of them never made mainstream configuration. The Thanix Cannon gave the Normandy the equivalent firepower of a cruiser, however its crew compliment and endurance do not make it a cruiser.

Step aside for a second and realize why current navies with the sophistication and money have not mothballed all of our Cruisers and Destroyers, they fill roles. The Stealth Frigate was a prototype, as well as its upgrades.

Like wise, Don't expect the Normandy to do anything besides covert strikes and guerrilla combat, it can't survive close range engagements without using its speed, the detonation of the reactor from the Collector Ship's destruction was enough to ground the Normandy at close range.

[Homey C-Dawg]

Don't forget that a large amount of the cost for the SR1 was R&D which would not be needed for replication. Probably saved Cerberus a lot of money since the SR2 was based off the SR1.

[tetrisblock4x1]

daqs wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Yeah, that's a completely blatant exaggeration. I believe that this game called homeworld put more thought into scaling tbh...

In HW a heavy cruiser cost around 5000 resources, and the standard fighter around 85. Small experimental stealth ships would be 1000 at the most. The cost of the building a cruiser hull alone should be equal to thousands of fighter ships.

I don't think that the Homeworld definitions of cruisers and frigates match up totally with the Mass Effect definitions. It's not a good comparison.

It totally is. A ton of metal is a ton of metal regardless of what fictional universe it's in, and you really think that the ME galaxy are going to be more interested in earning big money than producing war machines so that they can live to see the next year?

[ParagonForLife]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

daqs wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Yeah, that's a completely blatant exaggeration. I believe that this game called homeworld put more thought into scaling tbh...

In HW a heavy cruiser cost around 5000 resources, and the standard fighter around 85. Small experimental stealth ships would be 1000 at the most. The cost of the building a cruiser hull alone should be equal to thousands of fighter ships.

I don't think that the Homeworld definitions of cruisers and frigates match up totally with the Mass Effect definitions. It's not a good comparison.

It totally is. A ton of metal is a ton of metal regardless of what fictional universe it's in, and you really think that the ME galaxy are going to be more interested in earning big money than producing war machines so that they can live to see the next year?

a ton of metal is not a ton of metal...with newer and better refining tech you can remove more and more impureities making better and better quality armor so 1 ton of metal might make only 10 pounds of armor 

[tetrisblock4x1]

Look, I'm just saying that when extinction is imminent nobody gives a **** about the economy. It's not a difficult concept.

[G3rman]

Let me just remind again that by the start of ME3 there still aren't many people who believe in Reapers or threat of extinction so it kind of makes their need to use prototype designs and suddenly mass produce them a bit unnecessary.

[Aimi]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

It totally is. A ton of metal is a ton of metal regardless of what fictional universe it's in, and you really think that the ME galaxy are going to be more interested in earning big money than producing war machines so that they can live to see the next year?

"Cruiser" and "frigate" do not have objective sizes and armaments that do not vary across sci-fi universes. A Homeworld cruiser might be fifty million tons of metal, and a Mass Effect cruiser might only be ten million. Homeworld cruisers might pack eight main guns; an ME one might only have two. We. Don't. Know.

Now, from what little I remember about HW, heavy cruisers in that game are the largest class of combat warship, right? So wouldn't they be more comparable to a Mass Effect dreadnought, if anything?

[ParagonForLife]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Look, I'm just saying that when extinction is imminent nobody gives a **** about the economy. It's not a difficult concept.

they dont have the means to support building a dozen normandy ships..they dont have the personel to crew the ship and they dont have the capacity to build them you cant just build massive amounts of ships you need the personel to crew them you need personel to support them and ships to support them you need bases  for them to refuel and resupply at 

Modifié par ParagonForLife, 26 janvier 2012 - 05:44 .

[DiebytheSword]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

daqs wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Yeah, that's a completely blatant exaggeration. I believe that this game called homeworld put more thought into scaling tbh...

In HW a heavy cruiser cost around 5000 resources, and the standard fighter around 85. Small experimental stealth ships would be 1000 at the most. The cost of the building a cruiser hull alone should be equal to thousands of fighter ships.

I don't think that the Homeworld definitions of cruisers and frigates match up totally with the Mass Effect definitions. It's not a good comparison.

It totally is. A ton of metal is a ton of metal regardless of what fictional universe it's in, and you really think that the ME galaxy are going to be more interested in earning big money than producing war machines so that they can live to see the next year?

I work in manufacturing, you are very far off from reality here.  Technology and process make a huge difference in end product regardless of how much material is being compared.  The Normandy cost as much as a dreadnaught, or several smaller ships.  That's not just money and raw material, but complexity of manufacture that needs to be considered.  Upkeep on the Normandy is likely more costly than other frigates.

[ParagonForLife]

DiebytheSword wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

daqs wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Yeah, that's a completely blatant exaggeration. I believe that this game called homeworld put more thought into scaling tbh...

In HW a heavy cruiser cost around 5000 resources, and the standard fighter around 85. Small experimental stealth ships would be 1000 at the most. The cost of the building a cruiser hull alone should be equal to thousands of fighter ships.

I don't think that the Homeworld definitions of cruisers and frigates match up totally with the Mass Effect definitions. It's not a good comparison.

It totally is. A ton of metal is a ton of metal regardless of what fictional universe it's in, and you really think that the ME galaxy are going to be more interested in earning big money than producing war machines so that they can live to see the next year?

I work in manufacturing, you are very far off from reality here.  Technology and process make a huge difference in end product regardless of how much material is being compared.  The Normandy cost as much as a dreadnaught, or several smaller ships.  That's not just money and raw material, but complexity of manufacture that needs to be considered.  Upkeep on the Normandy is likely more costly than other frigates.

exactly and finding replacement crew for a ship like the normandy isnt going to be easy as it has state of the art tech not in any other ship and the fact that its alien tech almost no humans are trained to operate the ship

[Dewart]

incinerator950 wrote...

Normandy is a unique class of Stealth Frigate. It was made to be modular so that upgrades can be improved.

The SR-2 Cerberus version is larger than the original frigate, and has a few upgrades with the modular interface. The Silaris Armor, Cyclonic Particle Shielding, and Thanix Cannon are all prototype upgrades, and most of them never made mainstream configuration. The Thanix Cannon gave the Normandy the equivalent firepower of a cruiser, however its crew compliment and endurance do not make it a cruiser.

Step aside for a second and realize why current navies with the sophistication and money have not mothballed all of our Cruisers and Destroyers, they fill roles. The Stealth Frigate was a prototype, as well as its upgrades.

Like wise, Don't expect the Normandy to do anything besides covert strikes and guerrilla combat, it can't survive close range engagements without using its speed, the detonation of the reactor from the Collector Ship's destruction was enough to ground the Normandy at close range.

A good point but that is more so because the normandy was too close when it exploded. if you remember the original normandy got the last shot in on sovreign and was able to get out of range in no time. I like someone else's post about how a large part of the normandy's cost was research and development. Now think of a fleet of upgraded Normandy 2 (fast moving, doesn't show up on scanners while not in ftl, has the firepower of a capital ship, small crew) VS. the same number of Heavy Crusiers (slow, heavy armor/shields, weapons set up for longer range)

[Icinix]

The Normandy serves a different purpose.

In a war of attrition, you need the heavies to plug holes and stand their ground.

[Dewart]

ParagonForLife wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Look, I'm just saying that when extinction is imminent nobody gives a **** about the economy. It's not a difficult concept.

they dont have the means to support building a dozen normandy ships..they dont have the personel to crew the ship and they dont have the capacity to build them you cant just build massive amounts of ships you need the personel to crew them you need personel to support them and ships to support them you need bases  for them to refuel and resupply at 

 if they didn't have the personel to crew a fleet of normandy they definatly wouldn't have the personel to crew a fleet of heavy cruisers.

[ParagonForLife]

Dewart wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Normandy is a unique class of Stealth Frigate. It was made to be modular so that upgrades can be improved.

The SR-2 Cerberus version is larger than the original frigate, and has a few upgrades with the modular interface. The Silaris Armor, Cyclonic Particle Shielding, and Thanix Cannon are all prototype upgrades, and most of them never made mainstream configuration. The Thanix Cannon gave the Normandy the equivalent firepower of a cruiser, however its crew compliment and endurance do not make it a cruiser.

Step aside for a second and realize why current navies with the sophistication and money have not mothballed all of our Cruisers and Destroyers, they fill roles. The Stealth Frigate was a prototype, as well as its upgrades.

Like wise, Don't expect the Normandy to do anything besides covert strikes and guerrilla combat, it can't survive close range engagements without using its speed, the detonation of the reactor from the Collector Ship's destruction was enough to ground the Normandy at close range.

A good point but that is more so because the normandy was too close when it exploded. if you remember the original normandy got the last shot in on sovreign and was able to get out of range in no time. I like someone else's post about how a large part of the normandy's cost was research and development. Now think of a fleet of upgraded Normandy 2 (fast moving, doesn't show up on scanners while not in ftl, has the firepower of a capital ship, small crew) VS. the same number of Heavy Crusiers (slow, heavy armor/shields, weapons set up for longer range)

because the normandy cant have a slugging match with ships like a Dreadnaught or Cruiser can they can take and dish out alot not to mention that if the normandy went up agianst dozens/hundreds of fighters it whould lose because it has little to no anti strike craft weapons you need a carrier to fight strike craft and you need cruisers to support the carriers and the carriers support dreadnaughts its all about versitility

[ParagonForLife]

Dewart wrote...

ParagonForLife wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Look, I'm just saying that when extinction is imminent nobody gives a **** about the economy. It's not a difficult concept.

they dont have the means to support building a dozen normandy ships..they dont have the personel to crew the ship and they dont have the capacity to build them you cant just build massive amounts of ships you need the personel to crew them you need personel to support them and ships to support them you need bases  for them to refuel and resupply at 

 if they didn't have the personel to crew a fleet of normandy they definatly wouldn't have the personel to crew a fleet of heavy cruisers.

Sigh.... because having the crew to maintain a state of the art ship takes alot of time and training its specialist training its a stealth ship you need people who can maintain the electronic systems onboard needed to maintain that stealth a crew for a Crusier or a Dreadnaught doesnt need any of those specialists that whould be like putting the crew of a battleship or an aircraft carrier on a sub and saying go sink ships they whouldnt know what to do anything as they dont have expereince

[Aimi]

ParagonForLife wrote...

not to mention that if the normandy went up agianst dozens/hundreds of fighters it whould lose because it has little to no anti strike craft weapons you need a carrier to fight strike craft

Actually, all frigates are equipped with GARDIAN lasers, and that includes the Normandy. You get the Codex entry for GARDIAN lasers by looking at the SR-1 in the C-Sec docks in ME1.

[incinerator950]

You people don't seem to get that even upgraded to match a Cruiser, its not going to take a slugging match with the cruiser. You don't replace roles of Large ships with small ones, you take out the roles that are no longer needed. The US marines needed a new dedicated Fleet to Ground capable attack craft, so the Iowa Battleships were taken out of being Mothballed for the second time in the first Gulf War.

The Cost of the Normandy Two is greatly superior then the first.

The other problem is the size of the main gun, replace the Heavy Cruiser with the same weapons designs as the Thanix, and the firepower issue. The Normandy SR-2 fully upgrade rivals a Cruiser in Firepower, it does not replace the function, full capacity of defense, and capability as a Cruiser.

Even with Stealth Systems, Collector and Reaper ships can still see the Normandy. Sovereign was too busy swatting the Alliance fleet away to target the Normandy. The Frigates Maneuverability wins in the Normandy vs Collector, but without the Thanix Cannon the Normandy will take significant damage from a slugging match (or reactor detonation).

[ParagonForLife]

daqs wrote...

ParagonForLife wrote...

not to mention that if the normandy went up agianst dozens/hundreds of fighters it whould lose because it has little to no anti strike craft weapons you need a carrier to fight strike craft

Actually, all frigates are equipped with GARDIAN lasers, and that includes the Normandy. You get the Codex entry for GARDIAN lasers by looking at the SR-1 in the C-Sec docks in ME1.

a frigate isnt an anti strikecraft ship though seeing as a bomber strike group could probally kill the normandy in one attack run you need a carrier to put up strikecraft to down enemy strikecraft and send out its own bombers to destroy enemy ships if you focus only on building normandy type ships your not going to be able to have an effect fleet of ships 

[Dewart]

ParagonForLife wrote...

Dewart wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Normandy is a unique class of Stealth Frigate. It was made to be modular so that upgrades can be improved.

The SR-2 Cerberus version is larger than the original frigate, and has a few upgrades with the modular interface. The Silaris Armor, Cyclonic Particle Shielding, and Thanix Cannon are all prototype upgrades, and most of them never made mainstream configuration. The Thanix Cannon gave the Normandy the equivalent firepower of a cruiser, however its crew compliment and endurance do not make it a cruiser.

Step aside for a second and realize why current navies with the sophistication and money have not mothballed all of our Cruisers and Destroyers, they fill roles. The Stealth Frigate was a prototype, as well as its upgrades.

Like wise, Don't expect the Normandy to do anything besides covert strikes and guerrilla combat, it can't survive close range engagements without using its speed, the detonation of the reactor from the Collector Ship's destruction was enough to ground the Normandy at close range.

A good point but that is more so because the normandy was too close when it exploded. if you remember the original normandy got the last shot in on sovreign and was able to get out of range in no time. I like someone else's post about how a large part of the normandy's cost was research and development. Now think of a fleet of upgraded Normandy 2 (fast moving, doesn't show up on scanners while not in ftl, has the firepower of a capital ship, small crew) VS. the same number of Heavy Crusiers (slow, heavy armor/shields, weapons set up for longer range)

because the normandy cant have a slugging match with ships like a Dreadnaught or Cruiser can they can take and dish out alot not to mention that if the normandy went up agianst dozens/hundreds of fighters it whould lose because it has little to no anti strike craft weapons you need a carrier to fight strike craft and you need cruisers to support the carriers and the carriers support dreadnaughts its all about versitility

1 normandy 2 took out a collector ship with one or two thanix cannon blasts. Collector ship is of dreadnought size and likely has more advanced tech than any comparable alliance ship. sure a normandy cant take a lot of fire power compared to a dreadnought but a dreadnought would certainly have a hard time hitting it where the normandy would have a relatively easy time hitting the dreadnought. if the normandy onlt needs one or two good shots then the dreadnought isn't much good is it. a cruiser would be very similar.

a fleet of normandy 2 with a fleet of fighter carriers would be able to completely destroy 2 fleets of cruisers with few human casualties.

[ParagonForLife]

Dewart wrote...

ParagonForLife wrote...

Dewart wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Normandy is a unique class of Stealth Frigate. It was made to be modular so that upgrades can be improved.

The SR-2 Cerberus version is larger than the original frigate, and has a few upgrades with the modular interface. The Silaris Armor, Cyclonic Particle Shielding, and Thanix Cannon are all prototype upgrades, and most of them never made mainstream configuration. The Thanix Cannon gave the Normandy the equivalent firepower of a cruiser, however its crew compliment and endurance do not make it a cruiser.

Step aside for a second and realize why current navies with the sophistication and money have not mothballed all of our Cruisers and Destroyers, they fill roles. The Stealth Frigate was a prototype, as well as its upgrades.

Like wise, Don't expect the Normandy to do anything besides covert strikes and guerrilla combat, it can't survive close range engagements without using its speed, the detonation of the reactor from the Collector Ship's destruction was enough to ground the Normandy at close range.

A good point but that is more so because the normandy was too close when it exploded. if you remember the original normandy got the last shot in on sovreign and was able to get out of range in no time. I like someone else's post about how a large part of the normandy's cost was research and development. Now think of a fleet of upgraded Normandy 2 (fast moving, doesn't show up on scanners while not in ftl, has the firepower of a capital ship, small crew) VS. the same number of Heavy Crusiers (slow, heavy armor/shields, weapons set up for longer range)

because the normandy cant have a slugging match with ships like a Dreadnaught or Cruiser can they can take and dish out alot not to mention that if the normandy went up agianst dozens/hundreds of fighters it whould lose because it has little to no anti strike craft weapons you need a carrier to fight strike craft and you need cruisers to support the carriers and the carriers support dreadnaughts its all about versitility

1 normandy 2 took out a collector ship with one or two thanix cannon blasts. Collector ship is of dreadnought size and likely has more advanced tech than any comparable alliance ship. sure a normandy cant take a lot of fire power compared to a dreadnought but a dreadnought would certainly have a hard time hitting it where the normandy would have a relatively easy time hitting the dreadnought. if the normandy onlt needs one or two good shots then the dreadnought isn't much good is it. a cruiser would be very similar.

a fleet of normandy 2 with a fleet of fighter carriers would be able to completely destroy 2 fleets of cruisers with few human casualties.

collector ship was Heavy Crusier class not dreadnought

[mkk316]

Was there ever a limit to how many times the Thanix Cannons can be shot? Surely a gun like that has to have a crazy cooldown period.