262 réponses à ce sujet

[incinerator950]

Edit: Only 11 months after the battle, the turians produced the Thanix, their
own miniaturized version of Sovereign's gun. The Thanix can fire
reliably every five seconds, rivaling a cruiser's firepower but
mountable on a fighter or frigate.

Modifié par incinerator950, 26 janvier 2012 - 06:11 .

[Dewart]

also how are the the cruisers going to hit these normandy with whatever weapons you put on them?? they arn't going to be fighting in FTL so the normandys wont be showing up on the big ships scanners. if they don't show on scanners then how will they be calculating their fireing solutions??? they going to take shots by eyeballing it?

[incinerator950]

You don't engage your stealth systems while fighting. You fight, or run and then fight when they're blinded.

[Dewart]

if you're not in ftl you certainly engage stealth systems if you have them unless you're not too bright.
sure the enemy can look out the window and see you but it won't do them much good if their weapons won't target since the ship won't be recognized by scanners.

Modifié par Dewart, 26 janvier 2012 - 06:12 .

[ParagonForLife]

Dewart wrote...

also how are the the cruisers going to hit these normandy with whatever weapons you put on them?? they arn't going to be fighting in FTL so the normandys wont be showing up on the big ships scanners. if they don't show on scanners then how will they be calculating their fireing solutions??? they going to take shots by eyeballing it?

the normandy has to sink the heat into the ship to remain stealth if its running hot (like vs collector ship) then its easy to see the normandy doesnt stealth most of the time as it requires minimal power useage (floating not moving or moving very slow) its not a stealth bomber its a stealth recon ship recon requires you to observe from a distance with low power useage so as to remain as low profile as possible
you cant use stealth in combat as it requires you to divert most power to counter electronic and counter detection systems and the fact that if you charge up weapons or have weapons online then your not stealthed

Modifié par ParagonForLife, 26 janvier 2012 - 06:12 .

[Aimi]

ParagonForLife wrote...

a frigate isnt an anti strikecraft ship though seeing as a bomber strike group could probally kill the normandy in one attack run you need a carrier to put up strikecraft to down enemy strikecraft and send out its own bombers to destroy enemy ships if you focus only on building normandy type ships your not going to be able to have an effect fleet of ships 

In Mass Effect space warfare, you usually don't have a whole lot of fighter-on-fighter engagements. Individual warships rely on GARDIAN to take out fighters. Opposing fighters, however, rely on waves to overwhelm an enemy vessel's lasers and burn them out. The Normandy could take one wave; it won't be able to take eight, or ten. (But then again, neither could a cruiser.) So it's not really that you need carriers to take out fighters.

Usually, Mass Effect frigates operate in wolf packs, like Raeder's U-boats did. This allows them to both combine offensive armament and get in close for a knife fight with weakened enemy capital ships (a knife fight that they would win) and also combine defensive armament to deal with swarms of fighters. This is not applicable to the Normandy, because it's best suited to operations by itself. You don't stealth something in order to operate in tandem with unstealthed somethings. So you'd have to develop entirely new tactics for Normandy-class vessels in a space naval engagement. (Which is mentioned in one of the ME1 elevator conversations, and, to an extent, by Mikhailovich.) Before the SR-2 got its Thanix cannon, it didn't really have the firepower to make an attack from an unexpected direction all that viable: an enemy could just shrug it off. Now, though?

Incidentally, I'm not sure why it seems that everybody thinks I want to build Normandy-class vessels exclusively. I'm a big believer in combined arms, and I don't think that dreadnoughts, carriers, or even cruisers are replaceable by vessels like the SR-2. A space navy entirely made up of the Normandy and vessels like it would be stupid. I'm just making sure everybody's facts are right.

[Aimi]

Ew, doublepost. My apologies.

Modifié par daqs, 26 janvier 2012 - 06:13 .

[incinerator950]

Heat limits the length and intensity of ship-to-ship combat. Starships generate enormous heat when they fire high-energy weapons, perform maneuvering burns, and run on-board combat electronics.
In combat, warships produce heat more quickly than they can
disperse it. As heat builds within a vessel, the crewed spaces become
increasingly uncomfortable. Before the heat reaches lethal levels, a
ship must win or retreat by entering FTL. After an FTL run, the ships halts, shuts down non-essential systems, and activates the heat radiation gear.
Combat endurance varies by ship design and by the battle's
location. Battles in the deep cold of interstellar space can go on for
some time. Engagements close to a star are brief. Since habitable worlds
are usually close to a star, battles over them are usually more
frantic.


http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Codex/

daqs wrote...

ParagonForLife wrote...

a
frigate isnt an anti strikecraft ship though seeing as a bomber strike
group could probally kill the normandy in one attack run you need a
carrier to put up strikecraft to down enemy strikecraft and send out its
own bombers to destroy enemy ships if you focus only on building
normandy type ships your not going to be able to have an effect fleet of
ships 

In Mass Effect space warfare, you usually
don't have a whole lot of fighter-on-fighter engagements. Individual
warships rely on GARDIAN to take out fighters. Opposing fighters,
however, rely on waves to overwhelm an enemy vessel's lasers and burn
them out. The Normandy could take one wave; it won't be able to
take eight, or ten. (But then again, neither could a cruiser.) So it's
not really that you need carriers to take out fighters.

Usually, Mass Effect
frigates operate in wolf packs, like Raeder's U-boats did. This allows
them to both combine offensive armament and get in close for a knife
fight with weakened enemy capital ships (a knife fight that they would
win) and also combine defensive armament to deal with swarms of
fighters. This is not applicable to the Normandy, because it's
best suited to operations by itself. You don't stealth something in
order to operate in tandem with unstealthed somethings. So you'd have to
develop entirely new tactics for Normandy-class vessels in a
space naval engagement. (Which is mentioned in one of the ME1 elevator
conversations, and, to an extent, by Mikhailovich.) Before the SR-2 got
its Thanix cannon, it didn't really have the firepower to make an attack
from an unexpected direction all that viable: an enemy could just shrug
it off. Now, though?

Incidentally, I'm not sure why it seems that everybody thinks I want to build Normandy-class
vessels exclusively. I'm a big believer in combined arms, and I don't
think that dreadnoughts, carriers, or even cruisers are replaceable by
vessels like the SR-2. A space navy entirely made up of the Normandy and vessels like it would be stupid. I'm just making sure everybody's facts are right.

Exactly the point I was trying to make.

Modifié par incinerator950, 26 janvier 2012 - 06:16 .

[Dewart]

ParagonForLife wrote...

Dewart wrote...

also how are the the cruisers going to hit these normandy with whatever weapons you put on them?? they arn't going to be fighting in FTL so the normandys wont be showing up on the big ships scanners. if they don't show on scanners then how will they be calculating their fireing solutions??? they going to take shots by eyeballing it?

the normandy has to sink the heat into the ship to remain stealth if its running hot (like vs collector ship) then its easy to see the normandy doesnt stealth most of the time as it requires minimal power useage (floating not moving or moving very slow) its not a stealth bomber its a stealth recon ship recon requires you to observe from a distance with low power useage so as to remain as low profile as possible
you cant use stealth in combat as it requires you to divert most power to counter electronic and counter detection systems and the fact that if you charge up weapons or have weapons online then your not stealthed

I would read about the stealth system again. as long as you arn't entering or exiting ftl you are stealthed.

[G3rman]

It's a specialist prototype vessel though, it shouldn't be mass produced for any reason. ME3 has debunked the chances of this happening anyway, however, even if they had the time to produce multiple ships I don't see it making a real impact to the war effort.

[ParagonForLife]

daqs wrote...

Ew, doublepost. My apologies.

yea iam just saying though that having enemy strikecraft get that close to your ship means your in trouble allready seeing as the odds of you going up agianst unescorted carrier are very low if theres an enemy frig or destroyer escort combined with strikecraft then your point defense systems whouldnt be enough as you whould be busy fighting escort

[Dewart]

incinerator950 wrote...


Heat limits the length and intensity of ship-to-ship combat. Starships generate enormous heat when they fire high-energy weapons, perform maneuvering burns, and run on-board combat electronics.
In combat, warships produce heat more quickly than they can
disperse it. As heat builds within a vessel, the crewed spaces become
increasingly uncomfortable. Before the heat reaches lethal levels, a
ship must win or retreat by entering FTL. After an FTL run, the ships halts, shuts down non-essential systems, and activates the heat radiation gear.
Combat endurance varies by ship design and by the battle's
location. Battles in the deep cold of interstellar space can go on for
some time. Engagements close to a star are brief. Since habitable worlds
are usually close to a star, battles over them are usually more
frantic.


http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Codex/

yes so they can make a strike or two then hit ftl what is your point by posting that exactly?

Modifié par Dewart, 26 janvier 2012 - 06:24 .

[incinerator950]

Dewart wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...


Heat limits the length and intensity of ship-to-ship combat. Starships generate enormous heat when they fire high-energy weapons, perform maneuvering burns, and run on-board combat electronics.
In combat, warships produce heat more quickly than they can
disperse it. As heat builds within a vessel, the crewed spaces become
increasingly uncomfortable. Before the heat reaches lethal levels, a
ship must win or retreat by entering FTL. After an FTL run, the ships halts, shuts down non-essential systems, and activates the heat radiation gear.
Combat endurance varies by ship design and by the battle's
location. Battles in the deep cold of interstellar space can go on for
some time. Engagements close to a star are brief. Since habitable worlds
are usually close to a star, battles over them are usually more
frantic.


http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Codex/

yes so they can make a strike or two then hit ftl what is your point exactly by posting that exactly?

That:
A) Cruisers would seem to be better suited to slugging fights based on the assumption that non-specialized Frigates have a lower Heat Endurance.

 Normandy's Stealth Systems will not be engaged while in combat.  

That's my point, now if you choose to understand it, or ignore what is the established material for Mass Effect's Space Combat, its up to you.

[G3rman]

The heat generated by the Stealth System being activated while using the ship's weaponry and engines will make it overheat very quickly in a battle that could take quite a while (galactic war; dozens or hundreds of vessels fighting chaotically).

All the heat being released by the weaponry and engines would make the stealth systems useless anyway, its like lighting a flashlight in the dark.

[Dewart]

G3rman wrote...

It's a specialist prototype vessel though, it shouldn't be mass produced for any reason. ME3 has debunked the chances of this happening anyway, however, even if they had the time to produce multiple ships I don't see it making a real impact to the war effort.

this I will agree with. The only point I was really trying to make is a fleet of Normandy 2>A fleet of Cruisers provided the resources/training. similar firepower with less lives in danger.

[ParagonForLife]

incinerator950 wrote...

Dewart wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...


Heat limits the length and intensity of ship-to-ship combat. Starships generate enormous heat when they fire high-energy weapons, perform maneuvering burns, and run on-board combat electronics.
In combat, warships produce heat more quickly than they can
disperse it. As heat builds within a vessel, the crewed spaces become
increasingly uncomfortable. Before the heat reaches lethal levels, a
ship must win or retreat by entering FTL. After an FTL run, the ships halts, shuts down non-essential systems, and activates the heat radiation gear.
Combat endurance varies by ship design and by the battle's
location. Battles in the deep cold of interstellar space can go on for
some time. Engagements close to a star are brief. Since habitable worlds
are usually close to a star, battles over them are usually more
frantic.


http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Codex/

yes so they can make a strike or two then hit ftl what is your point exactly by posting that exactly?

That:
A) Cruisers would seem to be better suited to slugging fights based on the assumption that non-specialized Frigates have a lower Heat Endurance.

 Normandy's Stealth Systems will not be engaged while in combat.  

That's my point, now if you choose to understand it, or ignore what is the established material for Mass Effect's Space Combat, its up to you.

Yea and the stealth systems require almost all systems shut down with minimal life support and 0 weapons you dont use the stealth in mass effect much as it whould be too boring as you whould be a few hundred thousand KM away from your target way out of weapon range and way out of sight range using your the onboard sensors to gain intel

[incinerator950]

Dewart wrote...

G3rman wrote...

It's a specialist prototype vessel though, it shouldn't be mass produced for any reason. ME3 has debunked the chances of this happening anyway, however, even if they had the time to produce multiple ships I don't see it making a real impact to the war effort.

this I will agree with. The only point I was really trying to make is a fleet of Normandy 2>A fleet of Cruisers provided the resources/training. similar firepower with less lives in danger.

Or more, provided, a military will not make an entire force of specialist Frigates.  Cruisers take the light duties as ships of the line, and the fact you can't put a Dreadnought everywhere.  The Thanix Cannon was made as a miniature version of Sovereigns main gun, which makes smaller craft rival a Cruiser in firepower.  Speed is one thing, but Frigates will not, and never will, contest Cruisers and Dreadnoughts in their order of battle. 

The SR-2 is not special, only that the plot armor allowed it to be modular enough to equip upgrades to all systems.  If you add the upgrades to Cruisers, you've effectively overpowered the SR-2 now.

At this point, six months would be too long to even begin making new Normandy Frigates.  Even worse, because Normandy's designation is a Stealth Frigate, a recon ship. 

Right, we're beating a dead horse again.  You don't put Specialist ships as Line ships, the variables between construction, to actual conventional warfare make it impractical on a large scale in the Order of Battle. 

Modifié par incinerator950, 26 janvier 2012 - 06:35 .

[ParagonForLife]

Dewart wrote...

if you're not in ftl you certainly engage stealth systems if you have them unless you're not too bright.
sure the enemy can look out the window and see you but it won't do them much good if their weapons won't target since the ship won't be recognized by scanners.

yea and your ship wont be in any combat condition you will be running dark no power to weapons mass effect core at minimal power barriers off  
you know the WW2 movies with subs in them when the enemy ship whould be looking for them and they whould all stop moving and remain as quiet as possible thats what the normandy has to do they need to be as cold as the space around them with 0 energy signiture so yea a cruiser cant hit them but you cant hit the cruiser also the second you charge you Main Guns the heat and energy produced will alert the enemy 

[Dewart]

incinerator950 wrote...

Dewart wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...


Heat limits the length and intensity of ship-to-ship combat. Starships generate enormous heat when they fire high-energy weapons, perform maneuvering burns, and run on-board combat electronics.
In combat, warships produce heat more quickly than they can
disperse it. As heat builds within a vessel, the crewed spaces become
increasingly uncomfortable. Before the heat reaches lethal levels, a
ship must win or retreat by entering FTL. After an FTL run, the ships halts, shuts down non-essential systems, and activates the heat radiation gear.
Combat endurance varies by ship design and by the battle's
location. Battles in the deep cold of interstellar space can go on for
some time. Engagements close to a star are brief. Since habitable worlds
are usually close to a star, battles over them are usually more
frantic.


http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Codex/

yes so they can make a strike or two then hit ftl what is your point exactly by posting that exactly?

That:
A) Cruisers would seem to be better suited to slugging fights based on the assumption that non-specialized Frigates have a lower Heat Endurance.

 Normandy's Stealth Systems will not be engaged while in combat.  

That's my point, now if you choose to understand it, or ignore what is the established material for Mass Effect's Space Combat, its up to you.

they could be in stealth until they have a fireing solution deactivate stealth and fire then retreat. thats all that is really saying. so yes that would give a cruiser a brief window of opportunity to fire back. whoopie even if they fire it still doesn't mean it's going to hit. not to mentiona powerful thanix cannon shot is going to do a lot of damage.

so yeah a group of normandy get the first shot then retreat I think the second wave will finish the job.

[ParagonForLife]

Dewart wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

Dewart wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...


Heat limits the length and intensity of ship-to-ship combat. Starships generate enormous heat when they fire high-energy weapons, perform maneuvering burns, and run on-board combat electronics.
In combat, warships produce heat more quickly than they can
disperse it. As heat builds within a vessel, the crewed spaces become
increasingly uncomfortable. Before the heat reaches lethal levels, a
ship must win or retreat by entering FTL. After an FTL run, the ships halts, shuts down non-essential systems, and activates the heat radiation gear.
Combat endurance varies by ship design and by the battle's
location. Battles in the deep cold of interstellar space can go on for
some time. Engagements close to a star are brief. Since habitable worlds
are usually close to a star, battles over them are usually more
frantic.


http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Codex/

yes so they can make a strike or two then hit ftl what is your point exactly by posting that exactly?

That:
A) Cruisers would seem to be better suited to slugging fights based on the assumption that non-specialized Frigates have a lower Heat Endurance.

 Normandy's Stealth Systems will not be engaged while in combat.  

That's my point, now if you choose to understand it, or ignore what is the established material for Mass Effect's Space Combat, its up to you.

they could be in stealth until they have a fireing solution deactivate stealth and fire then retreat. thats all that is really saying. so yes that would give a cruiser a brief window of opportunity to fire back. whoopie even if they fire it still doesn't mean it's going to hit. not to mentiona powerful thanix cannon shot is going to do a lot of damage.

so yeah a group of normandy get the first shot then retreat I think the second wave will finish the job.

in the time it whould take to charge the main guns around 15 seconds the enemy ship could have hit you 3 times with its main guns not to mention secondary batteries 

[G3rman]

To charge up the weapon would reveal them, to power on necessary systems to acquire a targeting solution would make it likely to detect them, to power on the engines to retreat from their weapon range would reveal them.

It's not as simple as you are making it out to be.

[Dewart]

G3rman wrote...

To charge up the weapon would reveal them, to power on necessary systems to acquire a targeting solution would make it likely to detect them, to power on the engines to retreat from their weapon range would reveal them.

It's not as simple as you are making it out to be.

so what you are saying heat from targeting systems = heat from ftl jump. I highly doubt that.

[ParagonForLife]

Dewart wrote...

G3rman wrote...

To charge up the weapon would reveal them, to power on necessary systems to acquire a targeting solution would make it likely to detect them, to power on the engines to retreat from their weapon range would reveal them.

It's not as simple as you are making it out to be.

so what you are saying heat from targeting systems = heat from ftl jump. I highly doubt that.

charging up your weapons whould give you away and the enemy whould fire on you not to mention that its not worth it seeing as any damage the normandy takes that the crew cant repair will stay damaged as theres no chance of you sitting in a dock for a few weeks reparing

Modifié par ParagonForLife, 26 janvier 2012 - 06:44 .

[G3rman]

No, I'm saying that using the ship's systems can send out signals or even a slight increase of heat buildup that can have the Normandy detected. Regardless that is only a piece of my post, the point is stealth systems can't function the way you think hit-n-run would. Too many factors would lead to detection and inability to keep stealth systems functioning.

[Dewart]

ParagonForLife wrote...

Dewart wrote...

G3rman wrote...

To charge up the weapon would reveal them, to power on necessary systems to acquire a targeting solution would make it likely to detect them, to power on the engines to retreat from their weapon range would reveal them.

It's not as simple as you are making it out to be.

so what you are saying heat from targeting systems = heat from ftl jump. I highly doubt that.

charging up your weapons whould give you away and the enemy whould fire on you 

That point is moot so what.
Normandy in stealth formulates targeting solution (that won't be enough heat to reveal)
Then starts charging its weapon (revealed to other ship)
Other ship starts formulating targeting solution
Normandy fires weapon

Other ship starts charging weapon or possibly fires if weapons are already charged or is already too damaged to fire at this point since the normandy shot first

Normandy enters ftl