54 réponses à ce sujet

[ryoldschool]

I wanted to do a (maybe) final run thru ME2 with a sniper soldier.  I also wanted to try to use reave, like capn233 who did Claymore and then Revenant.

I had not played with the widow for over six months so I thought I'd put some action with the widow down.  Also I never used the avenger past Freedom's Progress before and it looked pretty good on Mordin's mission when I put Jacob's squad incendiary ammo on it.

Weapons: Widow, Avenger, Evi

First using mantis when I could on Horizon ( Reave as bonus )
Horizon Part 1
Horizon Part 2

DCS Collector ship trap.   AP Ammo as bonus.  At level 17 I could max AP ammo.  Avenger - the Harby killer!

Still AP Ammo  on Thane RM
Thane RM Part 1 - used Geth Shotgun, maybe too powerful, so went back to Evi on  part 2
Thane RM Part 2 - Using Evi

Samara RM - changed to Inferno Ammo, with Reave as bonus ( although did not use reave very much )

[capn233]

The Avenger has surprised me recently. I remember being completely underwhelmed with it the first few soldier runs I did. But I didn't think it was too terrible when I used it on the AR Vanguard...

This should turn out interesting. I doubt many combine Reave with the Widow.

[HolyAvenger]

Nice.

I find the key to Widow play is headshots. Get consistent headshots (in AR or in Cloak) and you'll own the battlefield.

[RedCaesar97]

Ryoldschool:
Using Reave with the Widow is interesting, but considering the way you are currently playing with the Widow, I think using Reave is a bad idea, and I suggest switching to Warp Ammo.

Currently, you are activating Adrenaline Rush for most of your sniper shots, shotgun shots, and Assault Rifle barrages, which means Reave is underutilized. If you plan to continue playing this way, then you will want to maximize the damage of the Widow. You want to use the Ammo power that will increase damage to the first layer of protection (ammo power damage calls are called first). So you would want Disruptor Ammo for shields, Warp for barriers (and Armor), and Incendiary Ammo for armor.

[ryoldschool]

Well, Red got me thinking today and so I did one of my experiments to test out warp ammo on the widow.

The test is less than two minutes long, but it took a lot of reloading to get the data.

Basically, at level 19, on Insanity, with 3 sniper upgrades, 8% equipment weapon damage pieces, headshot visor, with Miranda in party ( passive evolved to 15% squad weapon damage ) the widow cannot one-shot a vanguard elite.

There is an elite at the beginning of Samara's RM that I used for this test.  Warp Ammo makes a real difference, but as you can see, still a long way from one-shotting a vanguard elite. 

[capn233]

So for ME3 are ammo types going to actually do anything?

It's stupid that the list things like "50%" or "70%" and you really get something like 10%. What a rip off.

[RedCaesar97]

capn233 wrote...
So for ME3 are ammo types going to actually do anything?

It's stupid that the list things like "50%" or "70%" and you really get something like 10%. What a rip off.

I watched the video. I will admit that I overestimated Warp Ammo's advantages on the Widow. It helps but not as much as I first thought. 

And from what I have read so far, it appears that ammo damage will increase, though it remains to be seen how much it will matter.

[HolyAvenger]

To be fair, I think one-shotting elites is a bit ridiculous in a gameplay sense. That would make a Widow Soldier or Infiltrator ridiculously OP. Mooks yes, elites no.

[capn233]

HolyAvenger wrote...

To be fair, I think one-shotting elites is a bit ridiculous in a gameplay sense. That would make a Widow Soldier or Infiltrator ridiculously OP. Mooks yes, elites no.

The ROF is still low and the soldier and infiltrator don't have magic shield refill buttons.  I suppose you could use the reload trick and play it like a Sploitguard.

But I am not going to complain too loudly.  At least it isn't ME1 where in the beginning of the game the guns did absolutely no damage.

Modifié par capn233, 27 janvier 2012 - 04:44 .

[HolyAvenger]

Even then. I've played a Widow Infiltrator (though not a Widow Soldier) and the second half of the game just felt like a turkey shoot in parts. I've never felt the Arrival Object Rho fight was as easy as when I went cloak-headshot-cover-repeat. No need for any exploits, just careful positioning.

You shouldn't be able to one-shot elites. Otherwise they wouldn't be elites.

[CoffeeHolic93]

The test shows my viewpoint quite nicely. With the headshot upgrade you WILL one-shot basic troops as long as you score a headshot, which is the beauty of it. It is, in my experience more efficient to strip the defenses partially or completely before taking a shot at an Elite.

An argument in favor of Warp Ammo is that it's purple, but eh. There's better bonus powers out there.

[ryoldschool]

LotSB - Baria Frontiers and Azure
LotSB - Outside Ship and Defend the Hatch

On the Vasir fight I only used the widow and warp from Liara and Miranda, and not stasis.  It took 21 shots ( under Arush ), 12 to take out her barrier ( first two vasir fights ) and 9 more with Inferno ammo to take out her armor and health.  If she had any squad with her she might be invincible.

I continue to use the Avenger, and its no revenant, but I never run out of ammo and it helps once troops are down to health or low shields.  The Evi is like a baby claymore, and I used it a lot on the Baria upstairs because of the close quarters.
 

[capn233]

If you like the Avenger then consider switching to the Geth Pulse Rifle... since it is basically the Avenger with a little more ROF. It has better shield and barrier multipliers, but the armor multiplier is a little lower. Ammo is sort of a wash since it has more, but higher ROF. At any rate, would suit this style I imagine.

Will watch Lotsb when I get a chance.

[Relix28]

The bonus ammo powers have been tested way back when ME2 came out. And the conclusion was, they are barely noticable and as such provide very little usefulness. Inferno, Cryo and Disruptor on the other hand have a built in CC, so they are vastly superior because of that.

Well, at least they re-designed some of these Ammo Powers for ME3. I think one of the evolutions for armor piercing ammo gives it a chance to penetrate cover, wich is a pretty interesting idea tbh.

[ryoldschool]

capn233 wrote...

If you like the Avenger then consider switching to the Geth Pulse Rifle... since it is basically the Avenger with a little more ROF. It has better shield and barrier multipliers, but the armor multiplier is a little lower. Ammo is sort of a wash since it has more, but higher ROF. At any rate, would suit this style I imagine.

Will watch Lotsb when I get a chance.

I'll give it a test after I finish LotSB.

Relix28 wrote...

The bonus ammo powers have been tested way back when ME2 came out. And the conclusion was, they are barely noticable and as such provide very little usefulness. Inferno, Cryo and Disruptor on the other hand have a built in CC, so they are vastly superior because of that.

Well, at least they re-designed some of these Ammo Powers for ME3. I think one of the evolutions for armor piercing ammo gives it a chance to penetrate cover, wich is a pretty interesting idea tbh.

^ Ammo powers, I can't tell you how many times I have brought Grunt/Jacob/Zaeed along on missions with engineer, adept, and sentinel because those are the best ammo powers ( well, cryo is another story but only available if it is native to your class )

[capn233]

The conclusion that ammo powers are barely noticeable is dubious.  This is somewhat true when weapons have maximum upgrades, but is not true when they don't.  An excellent example is in NG+ where you have all the fancy toys but no upgrades.  Getting a 70% bonus over the base damage is noticeable, even if it only works out to maybe 50% total extra damage when passive or range is added in.  Low ranks are also not too impressive (except with Incendiary and Cryo) but by level 3 or 4 it should be more than noticeable.

Ammo calcs on Mattock

Did this the other night for the hell of it.  That is with 3 upgrades and AR Penetration.  Plus a little armor.  Sorry, didn't do shields or Disruptor since the topic was about Shredder.  Didn't do Cryo since that has a vastly different style of damage bonus.

I agree that CC is helpful, maybe moreso than damage boosts by late game.  I also find that Disruptor is more useful on the squad for CC as is Cryo compared to Shepard who's biggest CC help is from Inferno (except against synthetics... where running Squad Disruptor on your weapon is best, but only slightly moreso than Cryo or even Tungsten).

[Relix28]

^^ I was speaking more in general terms, as in what the general consensus was within the community about bonus ammo powers. Maybe barely noticable was not the most accurate term to use. So let me rephrase it. It is not noticable enough to justify the 10 point investment for a bonus ammo power. Hell, ONE point in neural shock/slam/stasis is better than any fully evolved bonus ammo powers.

ryoldschool wrote...

Relix28 wrote...

The bonus ammo powers have been tested way back when ME2 came out. And the conclusion was, they are barely noticable and as such provide very little usefulness. Inferno, Cryo and Disruptor on the other hand have a built in CC, so they are vastly superior because of that.

Well, at least they re-designed some of these Ammo Powers for ME3. I think one of the evolutions for armor piercing ammo gives it a chance to penetrate cover, wich is a pretty interesting idea tbh.

^ Ammo powers, I can't tell you how many times I have brought Grunt/Jacob/Zaeed along on missions with engineer, adept, and sentinel because those are the best ammo powers ( well, cryo is another story but only available if it is native to your class )

Same here. Zaeed is a (big goramn) godsend for Geth missions. Almost always took him with me on Haestrom. I used Jacob/Grunt quite a lot as well with my caster classes, because that burning dance is awesome. lol

Modifié par Relix28, 29 janvier 2012 - 02:20 .

[capn233]

I will defend ammo powers to the death even if they are terrible!

I hesitate to say I don't care what consensus is, but there are limits.

ONE point in neural shock/slam/stasis is better than any fully evolved bonus ammo powers.

You listed the three 1pt wonder bonus powers, one of which could be consider overpowered or broken. The only 1pt wonder ammo is really Cryo, which isn't a bonus power. Outside the bonus powers you listed you have 3 defensive powers that aren't much, Inferno Grenade which actually is terrible, and some that are pretty good with investment Flashbang, Energy Drain, Reave, Dominate).

1pt neural shock is inferior to AP Ammo or Warp Ammo on synthetic missions... stasis would be inferior if it worked correctly. Slam is a good power... maybe it is superior. It depends a lot on the stage of the game and how your other powers are evolved. It also depends on class. Sniper infiltrator would benefit more from AP or Warp ammo then those three powers. Slam isn't quite as great by late game. You also need to consider the bonuses robbing cooldowns from other powers. Ammo powers rob one... usually before any fighting has commenced.

Modifié par capn233, 29 janvier 2012 - 05:58 .

[Relix28]

You could also make a case for ammo powers not taking another hotkey for console versions. But as far as pure efficiency goes, you get a lot more bang for your buck from non-ammo bonus powers.
That said, I think we all know about the merits of different bonus powers and at the end of the day, we mostly pick whatever is the most fun (or most broken, because that can be fun too). So, if ammo-powers are fun for you, that's fine. Personally I don't find them very effective nor fun, and I have yet to hear a compeling argument/proof to convince me otherwise.

[ryoldschool]

Shadow Broker Inside Ship Plus Broker Fight

Finished this last night.   On the broker in previous playthroughs with widow soldier I had used the geth shotgun - it destroys his shield under arush - but after playing vanguard I cannot get used to using the geth shotgun - feels un-natural and I don't want to get used to it again.  Using the Evi as a baby Claymore works in most of this level, but with the broker I used the Widow at distance and it works wonders once the shields are down.   Also when he has the physical shield I ended up using the widow to take out his shields - by hitting him in his toe and arm

[ryoldschool]

Relix28 wrote...

You could also make a case for ammo powers not taking another hotkey for console versions. But as far as pure efficiency goes, you get a lot more bang for your buck from non-ammo bonus powers.
That said, I think we all know about the merits of different bonus powers and at the end of the day, we mostly pick whatever is the most fun (or most broken, because that can be fun too). So, if ammo-powers are fun for you, that's fine. Personally I don't find them very effective nor fun, and I have yet to hear a compeling argument/proof to convince me otherwise.

I play xbox, and yes, adding additional button-press powers to classes that already have a bunch is one reason to take an ammo power.   Also early game, as capn says, if you can't get Jacob's squad incendiary ammo, rank one AP ammo can add a noticable punch - when 30% of base really is something.

The other reason AP ammo is useful is on Soldier, depending on how you play the missions before the collector ship - you might not be able to max out incendiary ammo to inferno ( having to spend 3 points in disruptor ).  I did that on this run, hitting it at level 17.  Once I got the points, I went to Inferno, which is superior for all the reasons Capn and you gave.

[ryoldschool]

Mordin LM - Mordin and Samara

 

[ryoldschool]

Miranda LM, brought Samara along to help deal with Enyala, a good idea. 

[ryoldschool]

Garrus LM  - switched to cryo ammo because of the Loki mech on this mission. 

[ryoldschool]

Reaper IFF - I have a few comments on this mission.  Samara and Mordin are great for this one.

Imo, there are a few runs thru the Reaper IFF that are amazing.  CaolIla's Adept No shots fired Core, and RedCaesar97 No Shots Fired Engineeer Part 1, and the Core.  ( I also have a no shots fired Reaper IFFSentinel Run - not as impressive because I used the squad reset feature to spam their powers ).   All these runs use Mordin and Samara.

I used Mordin and Samara on this run also and did rather well ( but you know with soldier you really ought to shoot some guns ).  I had a devil of a time in the core, and yes I did use 8 medi-gel to revive my squad.  

Reaper IFF before Core
Reaper IFF Core

btw, I saved Tali LM and plan on taking Legion to the Migrant Fleet

Modifié par ryoldschool, 03 février 2012 - 12:53 .