320 réponses à ce sujet

[vonSlash]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Well that isn't a plot hole.  The Reapers only became intterested intargeting Shepard specifically after he/she destroyed Sovereign.

Nono nononono. They don't need to go after the Normandy because they are interested in Shepard. I have a better idea.

How about if they shoot down the Normandy to get that pesky human-Spectre and his one-of-a-kind ship out of Saren's hair? Or scales... or whatever.

If they'd done that then Saren would have won.

'course they'd have also won with seeker swarms on Edem Prime and elsewhere.

See what I mean? Having the Collectors just laying in wait doesn't work. Why weren't they active when Saren was making his bid for the Citadel? That was do or die time for the Citadel and it was a hell of a lot more important than anything the Collectors did in ME2.

To be fair, you're forgetting the most important part of the Mass Effect trilogy, specifically that it's a game series. The writers can't create a truly plausible story because, in order for the good guys to win (and let's face it, games where the good guys win usually sell better) Shepard will need to somehow be able to defeat any enemy he's faced with. If the Collectors got involved in ME1 as per the examples you laid out, then Shepard couldn't  have stopped Sovereign (at the Citadel or elsewhere) and the series would have been a single-game story with poor sales and no ego-boosting successes for its players.

[Tazzmission]

this shouldnt be a suprise at all everyone does it when it comes to games, comics, novels even films


when i say this im not trying to be a douche but does everyone just nit pick about everything?

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Clearly I care.

And that's the problem.  You don't care about anyone other than yourself.

No, I like to edit posts down to save space.

No, you ignore arguments and you quotemine.

You certainly never "gave me a good beat down" in the squaddie thread.

You said it's impossible for Shepard to call Koris out on his BS.  I told you of a specific conversation with him in which you could tell him to man up and go to war (I believe it is after the trial, but I'm not sure--gotta replay it).  You said the quarians were painted as the bad guys, and I provided multiple examples of likable quarians (Tali, Kal, Han'Gerrel), examples of obvious narrative efforts to highlight the plight of the quarians (Tali's speech in her loyalty mission, the unfair treatment of Lia and Kenn), and examples of geth brutality (most of ME1, Haestrom).  You said Shepard had the nerve to give a lecture to someone while they were being ripped to shreds, and I provided evidence from the script that it was quite the opposite--they were on the attack, while the ones you thought were doing the ripping and shredding were defenseless.

And then you attacked me, saying I was shallow and liked shallow characters, when I explained WHY the plight of the quarians was so deep and complex in the paragraph RIGHT BELOW THE SENTENCE YOU QUOTED.

See the problem here, ZuluDFA?  Oops, I mean Saph--Zulu did the same thing back in the day.

It's passed the time and it riles up people I don't like.

Why don't you take up knitting?

You are the one who set the mood and you are the one who brought my mother into it. Clearly I hit in the right place. That's very satisfying.

I didn't say anything about your mother other than you sort of needed one, although I hope she doesn't read what you write here.

And seriously, if being bipolar honestly bugged me, do you think I would have mentioned it in the first place?  Hell, I owe all my creativity and productivity in my art courses to my manic phases!  The point is that you shouldn't attack people like that.  Just because I can take it doesn't mean you should do it.

Could that be why I used that as an example? Why yes, I think it very well could be.

Dunno.  Saying "you support the Westboro Baptist Church" is kind of like saying "your mom is fat."

Also, now you are angsting.

Nah.  If I were angsting, I'd clear the room.  My angsting is EXTREEEME.  Thankfully, I do it 99% less than I did in high school.  Maturity!  Progress!

With that out of way, let's get back on topic.

Why don't you do me the favor of crushing me here like you did in the other thread. You can do that by responding to the post that spawned this argument.

Sure.  Repost?

I think I laid out my case for why better planning would have helped Mass Effect rather well. I think I explained very clearly how the series has suffered from the writer's/producers "winging it".

I'm not about to claim that Mass Effect is a flawless franchise (there are plenty of things that bug me about it), but I personally love that there's an element of spontaneity in the writing.  Sure, having all squadmates possibly die in the SM was probably a dumb move, but they rose to the challenge.  I like that.  Also, for it to be this good when there is so much "winging" involved is impressive--it gives me faith that someone as scatterbrained and impulsive as myself might actually make it professionally in some sort of creative career.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 27 janvier 2012 - 05:04 .

[Blacklash93]

Seboist wrote...
The problem with that would be that it would shatter the biodrones' belief that this company has this great writing ability and knows what it's doing.

I think they have good writing if you take it moment-to-moment and enjoy the dialogue. The overall plot has holes, but they're easily looked over. Does that belief make me a Biodrone?

[Heimdall]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Well that isn't a plot hole.  The Reapers only became intterested intargeting Shepard specifically after he/she destroyed Sovereign.

Nono nononono. They don't need to go after the Normandy because they are interested in Shepard. I have a better idea.

How about if they shoot down the Normandy to get that pesky human-Spectre and his one-of-a-kind ship out of Saren's hair? Or scales... or whatever.

If they'd done that then Saren would have won.

'course they'd have also won with seeker swarms on Edem Prime and elsewhere.

See what I mean? Having the Collectors just laying in wait doesn't work. Why weren't they active when Saren was making his bid for the Citadel? That was do or die time for the Citadel and it was a hell of a lot more important than anything the Collectors did in ME2.

You see, this sort of thinking assumes that the Reapers posses some kind of precognition.  How would the Reapers know this human would prove more than a pesky annoyance?  It was not do or die time for the Reapers.  They have made it abundantly clear that they veiw their cycle as inevitable regardless of what the organic species do to try and stop them, not to mention a single individual amongst many billions on a small ship that couldn't possible compete with Sovereign in power.

The Collecters have their alloted purpose and it is not the same as Sovereign's.  The Reapers did not believe the organic species had a real chance of defeating Sovereign at the Citadel with the Geth behind him and Saren having taken over the defenses.  They did not think Sovereign would need help.  It's really that simple.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 27 janvier 2012 - 05:06 .

[AdmiralCheez]

Seboist wrote...

The problem with that would be that it would shatter the biodrones' belief that this company has this great writing ability and knows what it's doing.

You know, when the authors of a series admit that they had no idea what the hell they were doing, it just makes me like the series more.  It gives it personality, makes it more relatable as a creative work, and shows that those behind it have the balls to admit that hey, they should have had a more detailed outline in some places and thought harder about the thing that seemed really cool at the time.

[AtreiyaN7]

The only problem with the thread title is that people who want to bash the game are going to take it and run with it (as I see they've done from the first page - heh). Anyhow, that's how fiction goes - sometimes authors make things up as they go along at times, even if they do have a basic outline. I'm not really surprised by there being an element of improvisation/sudden inspiration, etc.

[Tazzmission]

Saphra Deden wrote...

vonSlash wrote...

To be fair, you're forgetting the most important part of the Mass Effect trilogy, specifically that it's a game series.

No, I'm aware of that, however it isn't an excuse.

Obviously time and money will restrict how much they can do, but it has nothing to do with telling a cohesive story.

dude things change and you cant always expect the next installment to have the same thing

it wasnt to along ago when people attacked ea for never building on a game and now when ea does it people still find an excuse to complain.

are both mass effect games perfect when it comes to specific key things? no but i sure as heck enjoy them for what they are

[slimgrin]

AdmiralCheez wrote...


You know, when the authors of a series admit that they had no idea what the hell they were doing, it just makes me like the series more.  It gives it personality, makes it more relatable as a creative work, 

Bullsh*t. Don't even start down this path or I'll crap on a plate and call it art.

[Il Divo]

I think what we need is a nice big group hug. That should bring the forum together.

Modifié par Il Divo, 27 janvier 2012 - 05:14 .

[slimgrin]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

slimgrin wrote...

Bullsh*t. Don't even start down this path or I'll crap on a plate and call it art.

I'm quite certain that, no joke, somebody has already beat you to it.

I'm sorry. I apoligize. But I have to say it.


twogirlsonecup

Welcome back.. I'm not worthy

[Il Divo]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Ho ho ho, you must be new here.

You're right. I was laughing bitterly as I typed up that idea.

[Ghost Lightning]

So based on the OP it sounds like they wrote the story the way everyone writes a story for a series? Is that what this is or am I missing something? Did everyone expect them to plot out every single detail of the game from back when ME1 was being developed? Cheezus Pies

[AlanC9]

vonSlash wrote...

Getting back on topic, anyone else notice how Casey Hudson never clearly answers questions? I mean, he was asked a simple question (Did ME trilogy turn out the same way it had originally been planned to be?), and yet the response we get is:

“I think it’s a similar thing where we know we’re going to have to resolve certain things and we have ideas about how we’re going to do that, so we know from 1 we might say. ‘yeah this particular large storyline? We’re gonna do this particular thing with it and now we’re gonna resolve it’. But the people and the back-story might not exist for it until we make ME2 and we go ah! These are the people who need to be in that position at that time, to do these things.”

...which doesn't actually answer the question in the first place.

It might be a lot easier to trust anything Bioware says if they'd just bite the bullet and admit that their vision for the series has changed over the years.

But he did answer it. There wasn't any detailed plan in the first place, so there wasn't anything for the games to turn out the same way as. They had an outline, but that's it.

The problem is that the question itself makes an idiotic assumption. "Originally planned to be"? No creative work is ever made exactly according to plan, and Bio doesn't even try.

Casey did a very good job of showing that the question was based on a false premise without calling the questioner out for being clueless.

Modifié par AlanC9, 27 janvier 2012 - 05:24 .

[Ghost Lightning]

AlanC9 wrote...

vonSlash wrote...

Getting back on topic, anyone else notice how Casey Hudson never clearly answers questions? I mean, he was asked a simple question (Did ME trilogy turn out the same way it had originally been planned to be?), and yet the response we get is:

“I think it’s a similar thing where we know we’re going to have to resolve certain things and we have ideas about how we’re going to do that, so we know from 1 we might say. ‘yeah this particular large storyline? We’re gonna do this particular thing with it and now we’re gonna resolve it’. But the people and the back-story might not exist for it until we make ME2 and we go ah! These are the people who need to be in that position at that time, to do these things.”

...which doesn't actually answer the question in the first place.

It might be a lot easier to trust anything Bioware says if they'd just bite the bullet and admit that their vision for the series has changed over the years.

But he did answer it. There wasn't any detailed plan in the first place, so there wasn't anything for the games to turn out the same way as.

The problem is that the question itself makes an idiotic assumption. "Originally planned to be"? No creative work is ever made exactly accorging to plan, and Bio doesn't even try.

Casey did a very good job of showing that the question was based on a false premise without calling the questioner out for being clueless.

/thread 

[Seboist]

Walker White wrote...

Seboist wrote...

The handling of the ME "trilogy" is the best evidence there is with how overhyped Bioware's writing is. If it's so great then why do Gears of War and Blazblue(a freakin fighting game) have a far more cohesive story that flows better between games than ME? The former's buildup of it's lambest locust plotline and the latter with it's buildup of future (playable) characters are done better than anything in ME where each game is essentially a semi-reboot with a loose connection between each other.

Stories with no choice.  That has been a solved problem since the rise of the novel in the 18th century.

You can rage all you want about how insignificant the choice is in BioWare games.  However, the integration of choice into narrative (which is distinct from the disconnected quest design of sandbox games) is a hard, unsolved problem.

No choice?! Gears of War has entire alternate paths to choose from based on choice which is a tangible consequence instead of throwway dialogue that amounts to nothing. Blazblue's story mode also has tangible consequence due to having a real branching narrative that results in alternate opponents based on player choice.

The real kicker is that these two franchises aren't even RPGs sold on the basis of player choice and they blow ME out of the water.