255 réponses à ce sujet

[Ghidorah14]

Oh my God. This is hilarious.

I cant even put into words how retarded you have to be to think you can palette swap/color swap/name swap something and BAM! Its yours to do with as you please.

[SeanMurphy2]

I was thinking writers could have initial inspiration from a character/story but end up creating something quite different and original. So starts off with Sten losing a sword ends up as some weird sex story.

Alternatively some "fan fiction writers" may have always had this specific story they wanted to tell. But end up adjusting the story to fit into the Dragon Age universe.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 27 janvier 2012 - 06:31 .

[Imported_beer]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

She may only sell a handful of books and feel good about herself, maybe she will try to write something with more originality next time. Just seems petty to kick up a big fuss about something so small scale.

Not really. The fuss started today because of a comment where the author allegedly said that she had never heard of Dragon Age. Given that she wrote a novel about Sten, and given that she in her book claimed that it was the character from the games that inspired her, and even made interviews to that effect (all linked earlier), that claim was disingenuous. I linked passages where I compared the two books side by side, or how much I kept of Commander, at any rate. People have written about other similarities. 

The Sten in her book, could have absolutely been based so much on her conceptualizing that it may no longer be the Sten that Mary wrote. Her fan fiction IS her own original creation. But the context of a race of human-resenting giant race, in the world that she wrote, with the supporting cast, with the type of nations, with the religions, with the customs, with the same overall thematic elements of magic and religion,  all based on Dragon Age lore leaves it at best in an ambiguous place where a person like me can read it and say "whoa, this is way too close" and another person like you (if you have read it) think "well this is just different enough to be safe". IMO, many people familiar with DA:O lore will probably skew to the former.

Either way, expressing that opinion is not petty. I think it is ethical. Especially since the person who will finally be making the decision of whether it is copyright infringement is not you or I, it will be a lawyer. All this will do is make them evaluate the case.

DaWhirlpool wrote...

So now, I’m very angry. Not
at the author but at this thread. 

It is not just about Alistair, and Alisdair being similar. It is about countries being similar, it is about customs and religions being similar. It is about species being similar. It is about similar lore and setting. It is about neighboring countries that have the same political system. If you can gloss over all that and reduce it to just an Alisdair/Alistair comparison, then I am not sure what to think of your conclusions.

[SeanMurphy2]

Fair enough

This case looks like plagiarism.

Modifié par SeanMurphy2, 27 janvier 2012 - 07:19 .

[DaWhirlpool]

You know better than to quote an alleged quote. Yikes. I am searching everywhere for it btw (please help). Just like you said, she has publicly said that she wrote a FF for DA. I dug up what this very forum had to say about it originally (scary): social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/127/index/2653477

I noticed everyone is ignoring the obvious parallels with LOTR and DA. Some forums are really unkind about this however. You should see the Mass Effect ones! He who is free of plagiarism, cast the first stone. (Oh the irony that I'm changing that phrase and making it my own). 

Anyhow, if you're all ok with that, I think it's time for me to walk away graciously. I'll let the next guy who hasn't read the book write a comment and get riled up.

[Ghidorah14]

Its one thing to use common themes or make homages.

Its another entirely to rip characters and plot points straight out of a story, rename them AND sell it to make a profit.

Stop trying to defend an obvious con artist. Bringing DA's own originality into question doesnt justify blatant plagiarism.

[Imported_beer]

I have read both books and thus am not "the next guy who hasn't read the book".

This is not just about having broad thematic similarities. It is about having too many similar facets that add up.

It is not just that he is of a race of giant men who dislike humans, he is also found imprisoned because he went berserk and killed a village's worth of men, plus cannot go home because he has lost his sword, plus it is an infraction his people will take very seriously, plus whose people follow a code where you are born to a purpose which cannot change, plus a people where women are not warriors, plus he assists a king named Alisdair, plus many such things that have a cumulative effect that make people feel the context is far too similar.

Her story of a giant who falls in love with a warrior woman is her own. In fact even her depiction of Sten's character is entirely her own because Sten certainly didn't come across like that in DA:O. That is not the issue. It is the fact that the entire context that helps tell that story seems based on something else.

There are similarities between a lot of fantasy- thematically speaking. If I spoke about an evil lord who wants ultimate power, and a group of people who wished to defeat him, that would be...well every second fantasy novel ever written. But, if I wrote a book about a Dark Lord named Morgon, who is trying to take over Mid-Earth, and can only be defeated if a piece of jewelry he created to establish dominion over others, is dropped into Mount Boom, even if my protagonists are a bunch of gorgeous, stacked women in skimpily clad leather, there are too many specifics that make it too close. Much too close.

Modifié par Imported_beer, 27 janvier 2012 - 08:29 .

[Hakurou]

DaWhirlpool wrote...

You know better than to quote an alleged quote. Yikes. I am searching everywhere for it btw (please help). Just like you said, she has publicly said that she wrote a FF for DA. I dug up what this very forum had to say about it originally (scary): social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/127/index/2653477

[snip]

This is what I've found:

Rebecca Scarberry on Amazon commented on a review...

[snip]After speaking to the author of this book, I don't think you wrote the review for the correct book: hemorrhaging, bodice ripper, etc. ?? The author has never even heard of the series you mention.[snip]

 
[Link to comments page]

And Scarberry has been in contact with the author in question, so at this point I will proceed under the assumption she is not lying within that comment.

This was then followed by Gaider's input on Twitter:

David Gaider tweeted:

Plagiarize if you like-- hey, knock yourself out-- but claim originality, along with "I never even heard of Dragon Age"? [censored], please.

  
Along with a comment on Beer's Amazon review:

David R. Gaider on Amazon wrote...

I am the lead writer of the Dragon Age series you say the author has never heard of, and I can confirm that she did indeed write the "Sten and the Warden" Dragon Age fanfiction novel and even sent it to me. While the characters and events described in this new book have more than passing resemblance to her fanfiction, I have no idea if they're exactly the same. Sounds like someone thought their fanfiction was so awesome they needed to turn it into something publishable. Whether people think that's a good idea or not I'll leave to those willing to read it-- but I'd say that, if there's anything that makes a "talented author" look bad it's outright lies. 

Meanwhile on the author's twitter:

Michelle Franklin tweeted (over 3 tweets):

@davidgaider Hello, David I know you aren't writing those reviews on my Amazon page. It's a troll who's gone wild and has been posting in your name, giving away your person info in the forums, etc. I have ignored the troll, but she seemed to want something. If you would like to discuss it, please DM me.

[link] [link] [link]

(Truth be told I think I'll step away from this for a bit after this massive infoscrape. The schadenfreude is beginning to get poisonous.)

Modifié par Hakurou, 27 janvier 2012 - 08:36 .

[Imported_beer]

I think I shall leave too.

/Troll gone wild.
//Gaider Impersonator.
///Oh. and...liar who should feel ashamed of herself.

[Hakurou]

Sleep/Rest good, you sassy, sassy troll you.

[Imported_beer]

Thanks.

I have one last thing to say though. It was weird.

I didn't set out to cause trouble. But it gets uncomfortable when people scold you, accuse you of...things for expressing an opinion politely- as it happened there, and even her publisher gave me "guess you want to get her in trouble" snark when I forwarded the PDF to them 6 months ago. So, it was freeing to be able to express my opinion even if I may have gone overboard in my enthusiasm...a couple of times. Here, I mean. It was the first time I have not been made to feel defensive about this.

A lot of you guys were nice to me. Thank you.

EDITED: For grammar.

Modifié par Imported_beer, 27 janvier 2012 - 09:23 .

[ElitePinecone]

Imported_beer wrote...

Edited out all references of tendrils.

I... I...

[TEWR]

This.... made me lol heartily. To think that changing the names would be enough to claim originality?

LOL at Alisdair.

[Ghidorah14]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

This.... made me lol heartily. To think that changing the names would be enough to claim originality?

LOL at Alisdair.

I hope she makes a sequel, perhaps told from the perspective of Carriv the dwarf.

[Sister Goldring]

Damn - I stop lurking for one day to sew up my kids skating comp frocks and whoa.......
 
We have a literary scandal, kinky sex revelations, claims of Gaider impersonation - - -this thread has totally made my day! 
 
I'm staying tuned for any further updates. I kinda hope they involve someone we thought was dead coming back to life with amnesia and marrying a close relative........

Seriously though Imported_beer I 100% support your actions.

Modifié par Sister Goldring, 27 janvier 2012 - 10:06 .

[Tryynity]

DaWhirlpool wrote...
So now, I’m very angry. Not at the author but at this thread.
Sure, Alasdair and Alistair are reluctant kings but need I remind you of Aragorn? Look, when I first played DA I thought “great, another Tolkien clone.
Ok don't be too cynical” but it turns out there’s more similarities
than I thought: smalltowngeeks.net/2010/12/03/daovslotr/
She wrote a DA fan fiction book first and then wrote another
one that kept a handful of similarities, I get it. DA is in no position to
point fingers though. I’m saddened that so many people lifted their pitchforks
without reading it first too.
As a result I can’t support this thread (even though I was
hoping to).
 
I’m not going to slam her writing style because that would be petty.
I doubt I’ll read the last quarter either.

DaWhirlpool wrote...
You know better than to quote an alleged quote. Yikes. I am searching everywhere for it btw (please help). Just like you said, she has publicly said that she wrote a FF for DA. I dug up what this very forum had to say about it originally (scary): social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/127/index/2653477
I noticed everyone is ignoring the obvious parallels with LOTR and DA. Some forums are really unkind about this however. You should see the Mass Effect ones! He who is free of plagiarism, cast the first stone. (Oh the irony that I'm changing that phrase and making it my own).
Anyhow, if you're all ok with that, I think it's time for me to walk away graciously. I'll let the next guy who hasn't read the book write a comment and get riled up.

First off - its ok to be mad, its your priviledge, as it is also the right of others to be angry too, and take action against blatant plagarism.

(No I have not bought her book nor will I - that would be hypocritical of me)  - I  did however see David Gaider's personal responses on Twitter in reply to Ms "I didnt steal nothin" .  I dont know about other people but that was enough for me - given that it is his IP in question - not her FanFiction.

David Gaider even stated he has no problem with FanFiction - maybe he doesnt care about her plagerising his stuff - it was the lieing and the covering up her tracks that got people riled up.

I agree - I dont want to knock her writing anymore than I would anyone else that writes that kind of thing.  I have attempted writing sex scenes and they are hard to write - but I always try to stay believable and keep the giggle meter low.  Being impaled upon gianormous apendages is funny - dont tell me you didnt laugh at that

You are meaning Lord of the Rings when you compare Dragon Age Origins, yes?

1. Aragorn and Alistair are not the same in the slightest - their motives entirely different for not being King.
One was a chicken **** the other was ashamed of his heritage.
Alistar was not called Alathorn either.  (Alasdair .... really?!)

David, in the bible was also reluctant to be King. (In fact the bible has been plagerised more in litrature and other religious beliefs for about 4-5k years - but that is another subject.)  I think being a King/Queen is kinda scary and if you fully fathom the responsibility - you would be scared.

The best leaders are actually the ones that dont want to lead.


2. Small town Geeks quote -
They came up with 7 vague similarities.

* Elves, Dwarves, and humans are in both LotRO & DAO - Elves, Dwarves, & humans exhisted in fantasy before Tokien wrote about them, as did Orcs cited as similar to the Darkspawn.

In looks yes they are - but there are only so many ways you can draw hideous foul monster without looking like someones, they are the most simililar in looks to the ones that appear in LotRO in the opening trailer movie.

But really the artists are going of interpretations of written descriptions of the beasts.  If the description is similar - so should the picture be.

* Dwarves in LotR are nothing like the ones in DAO - other than they live underground - but I think dwarves are known for this & mining - Snow White's mob like to mine.

* The Fellowship set off to destory the ring created by the 'Devil' character to control the world - (rebellious angel/Valar)

* Frodo/Gollum's sacrifice was not the same - the ring became bound with the character's soul (possession) over the journey - it wasnt the only way to end it, the fact was overcoming the possession was too difficult

* The King didnt probably have to clean up after the Archdemon was killed - the Darkspawn go back underground until they hear the song again.  They didnt because something else happened - I wont say
because that is a spoiler.

* The Dwarven Kingdom of DAO was not in ruin - it was in chaos only over rulership - that was sorted and they went on their merry way until the next assassination at least.  The Dwarves of LotR was based on the Hebrews loss of their land.  Tolkien's writing are riddled with biblical inspiration as he
was a devout Catholic.

DAO has similarities with the bible also - but so has most things - ("nothing new under the sun" Eccl.) cant take that further due to forum code of conduct.

The small town geek then went on to list unsimilarities.

Those I can agree with except the last reference to Alistair dumping you coz he is a jerk.
* Untrue (even though he made me so mad ) if he is hardened he wont I am told.  I never romanced him again after he broke my heart.

That said Aragorn is NOTHING like Alistair - he was a polar opposite IMHO

I hope you are less upset and more cheery now that I have cleared up some of your missgivings towards this thread and its author.

I for one will be keeping my pitchfork sharpened - at least until there is something more juicey elsewhere

Modifié par Tryynity, 27 janvier 2012 - 10:37 .

[ColorMeSuprised]

BrotherWarth wrote...

Imported_beer wrote...

BrotherWarth wrote... Her biggest gripe was that my leading female character couldn't have sex with my leading male character because he was gay and castrated..

....
Whoa.

Yeah. When I told her that his homosexuality and castration at the hands of (his fellow) soldiers was key to the character she basically said no one would read it if the 2 main characters never have sex.

.... I wonder why people read my fanfiction since my characters never have explicit sex, if I even allow them to have sex, that is.

To be honest, I hate PWP and lemon/NC-17. I can live with lime/smut, but this goes far beyond what I can endure when reading fanfiction.

But... uhm... BrotherWarth.... may I have a link to your fanfiction? I'm intrested.

tklivory wrote...

caradoc2000 wrote...
So it is OK for me to steal your car if I am sufficiently inspired by it? [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/uncertain.png[/smilie]

As long as you repaint it and change the locks, apparently, yes.

I was plagiarized once. It was not flattering. Since then I have become really strict with other people's intellectual proberty.

At least, the author should have the balls to admit she stole from Dragon Age. What the heck. When she noticed BW/EA not giving her the right to publish this, she just changed a few things and said it was original. Of course there is a lot of work behind her story and of course, the story itself is original work, but the setting. is. not.

And she advertises it as if it was the best thing since sliced bread.

Oh come on.

[Ponendus]

Appalling situation. The author should be ashamed. Cheap and tacky money grab in my opinion.

[Chaia]

This thread is full of lols, but seriously -

Theres a difference between using a tried and tested formula thats been used who-knows how many times and blatant plagisrism. The format of a big evil attempting to conquer the land and only the hero with his band of merry men to stop it has been used so often its impossible to keep track of those stories, and yes Lord of the Rings is one of those many, many stories.

A similar comparison, with a different formular, can be done between Star Wars IV: A New Hope and Mario: a evil villain has kidnapped the princess and so the hero must go and save her from the villain's fortress. You can do the same with a multitude of other stories that use the same formular, the only differenet between stories useing the same formular is content i.e. plot, characters, environment etc etc and thats what makes the unique.

Like others I probably wouldn't be that bothered by Franklin's plagisrism of DA and bigging herself up over it, but covering her tracks and denying knowleage of the game when shes obversely not only knows about it, but has played the game and then wrote a fanfic that this book is based on, its abit too much of a slap in the face for the DA devs.

Modifié par Chaia, 27 janvier 2012 - 12:58 .

[syllogi]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

I don't see a problem with it. As long as she is not advertising the book as part of the dragon age universe or tricking DA fans into buying. Or using the trademarked terms.

Just seems like she was inspired by a situation presented in the game and wrote some weird story out of her own imagination.

If I had any literary talent, I would have loved to write a story about Ser Cauthrien wandering around Ferelden haunted by all that has happened. I would not use any lore, names, characters or awakening/DA2 plot. I just find the situation of where she is at the end of the game interesting.

She may only sell a handful of books and feel good about herself, maybe she will try to write something with more originality next time. Just seems petty to kick up a big fuss about something so small scale.

All she had to do is NOT SELL these books, and I don't think anyone would have a problem.  She's attempting to make a profit off of other people's intellectual property -- which is more than names of characters and places.

Ideas do have worth.  Artists, writers, and musicians have the right to protect their creativity, and make money off of it without having their hard work stolen.

[Klidi]

SeanMurphy2 wrote...

I was thinking writers could have initial inspiration from a character/story but end up creating something quite different and original. So starts off with Sten losing a sword ends up as some weird sex story.

Alternatively some "fan fiction writers" may have always had this specific story they wanted to tell. But end up adjusting the story to fit into the Dragon Age universe.

Yes, of course writers CAN have initial inspiration. Let me explain with your idea based on Cathrien:

- you liked Cathrien in DA and it made you think about what would her life look like after the war, so you would decide to write a story about a woman, who was a lieutenant of the losing side in the war; she secretely loved her general, and was fighting for him, more than for their 'cause'; when they lost she had to watch his execution. That would be fine because it is general enough - it could be a story set in your own world, or e.g. during the WW2. That's initial inspiration.

- if she would be called Cathrien or the general would be called Loghain, but there would be no other similarities, I would be proud at myself that I recognised the allusion to DAO, and if anyone accused you of plagiarism, I would even defend you.

- BUT, if she was called Cathrina and the general would be called Lugan McTyll,  and the citizens would call the war the Plight; if Lugan was a hero of the previous war; if he started a civil war during the invasion of outside enemies; if the civil war started after he let the rightful ruler and his army to die at hands of these outsiders; if the ruler was the son of his best friend; if he had a daughter and tried to have her elected as the next ruler, etc. etc. etc. - then that would be far beyond initial inspiration. It would be plagiarism. And any praise you would get for interesting characters or world building, would be undeserved and based on a lie.

It is not my decision to put such book off any site or sale; but, if I know about such book, I take it as my duty to point it out to people who can make such decision, so that the other people who don't know the original would not be deceived and spend their money for something a fraud.

Honestly, I would not care about how much heart you would pour into such book, or how hard your worked on it. Just as I don't care about how difficult it was for the bank robbers to plan their robbery. A thief is a thief, and I won't be made feel bad about not appreciating the effort they put in their work.

[Sinuphro]

Deadmac wrote...

...and, you folks wonder why SOPA exists. Between the movie, music, and software pirating, I would think everyone would have gotten a clue. Next time someone wants to pass a bill to protect an artist's rights, I suggest everyone take a deep breath and support the damn thing.

do u have a brain?? wat SOPA was trying to enforce; the negatives of the laws outweigh the benefits. go do ur research before posting stupid comments such as this

Modifié par Sinuphro, 27 janvier 2012 - 01:52 .

[Gotholhorakh]

Imported_beer wrote...

I am but the humble dispenser of that book without an author.

The wise unknown being who left us with words of wisdom like:

On the matter of size, to subject it to measurement would be to diminish its splendor! I would rather liken it to something more familiar: a large and delicious piece of cake! If placed out and not devoured immediately, it will take to hardening on its own. I maintain that if we women are forced to birth children, we can accommodate decidedly smaller things moving in the opposite direction. You shall not be disappointed!

What the. I must admit I lol'd.


OK, the person has been rumbled trying to turn their fanfic into something they can sell, and they've been rumbled because they put no effort into making it its own story.

She should have done that, but I can't be bothered to join in the Judgtoberfest, she looks stupid enough already.

Deadmac wrote...

...and,
you folks wonder why SOPA exists. Between the movie, music, and software
pirating, I would think everyone would have gotten a clue. Next time
someone wants to pass a bill to protect an artist's rights, I suggest
everyone take a deep breath and support the damn thing.

The practical implications of that particular thing effectively mean an end to the world wide web, necessitating a degree of liability that would "combat" the average forum thread. To say nothing of piracy, normal people having open access to a vibrant and free web for a modest price would end overnight wherever such a thing were enforced in anger. SOPA is badly broken/still-born, it is the web equivalent of burning down libraries to protect book sales, and I suggest you pay more attention to understanding what you're even describing, before you call for it.

Modifié par Gotholhorakh, 27 janvier 2012 - 02:37 .

[Dasque]

Sinuphro wrote...

Deadmac wrote...

...and, you folks wonder why SOPA exists. Between the movie, music, and software pirating, I would think everyone would have gotten a clue. Next time someone wants to pass a bill to protect an artist's rights, I suggest everyone take a deep breath and support the damn thing.

do u have a brain?? wat SOPA was trying to enforce; the negatives of the laws outweigh the benefits. go do ur research before posting stupid comments such as this

The problem with SOPA wasn't that it was a bad idea, it was that it was too vaguely worded and left gaping holes for abuse of the restrictions. The protests weren't that it was thrown out entirely--we just want something that clarified more specific situations. I'm all for supporting a bill that protects artist's rights, but not one that can crack down on anyone who dares to utter a name they don't hold the copyright to.