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[telephasic]

This is a modified post from the other forum – my suggested builds have been changed in order to adjust to critiques people have made.  Still, given what we know from the Primaguide, we have a much better idea of what builds will and will not work. 

First, some ground rules:



1. All armor and most weapons require strength. The only exceptions are daggers, shortbows and longbows which require dexterity (crossbows require strength) and staffs, which require magic.  Staffs have ranged attacks only.

2.  We don’t know the exact math yet for weapon damage and attack bonus.  Here is what we do know:

Swords, axes, and maces/mauls – Strength +dexterity bonus to hit, strength bonus for damage

Daggers – Strength + dexterity bonus both to hit and fordamage

Bows – Dexterity bonus to hit, strength + dexterity for damage

Crossbows - ?

My understanding is bonuses are additive, not averaged .  This means where both strength and dexterity affect your chances, you can concentrate on pumping one, and not the other.    

3. A few item types are sadly useless. There's no point in using a shortbow in the game unless you can't find a better longbow. Longbows have marginally higher dexterity requirements, and only moderately better damage and armor piercing, but a 75% longer range.  As we will also discuss, heavy shields are pretty worthless.

4. The warrior’s main melee weapons come in three styles - swords, axes, and maces/mauls. Each comes in one and two handed versions. Swords have the highest damage, but the lowest armor piercing ability. Maces/mauls have the lowest damage but the highest AP. If you're playing a pure melee fighter, I'd switch
back and forth between swords and maces depending upon having armored or unarmored foes, although keep in mind if you're sword and shield you may need a second shield for your second configuration. If you're using ranged as your second configuration, I would go axes, as they balance out damage dealing and AP ability.

Anyway - onto the builds:  - for each I’ll list the suggested minimum stats by level 22, and the projected minimum “free” attribute points if you were a human (subtract one point for dwarves, and three for elves.  It’s presumed we get five at character creation, and three each level, but a few developer characters have higher attributes, so there might be some tomes out there

Dual-Wield Rogue:  - 20 strength, 35 dexterity, 22 cunning – 35 free attribute points

A lot of powergamers are going to be unhappy. Strength requirements for weapons are high - you'll need 31 just to wield the best longswords by the end of the game.  This means around a third of your “free points” go towards strength, leaving you with little to spread between willpower and constitution  There’s really little reason to use anything but daggers with most dual wield rogue builds.  This means the last level of the first dual wield tree isn’t very important – you do get a decrease to the stamina costs for your talents, but you’ll never be putting a full-sized weapon into your off hand.   20 strength will give you a moderate bonus until lethality kicks in, and allow you to wear the best leather armors.   Your dexterity only needs to rise to 35 - you could make due with 30 if you skip evasion, but I'd suggest you take it since you're going to get hits in combat when backstabbing goes wrong.  I’d
suggest you use the free points for a mixture of additional cunning (lethality bonuses), willpower, and constitution.

Ranged Rogue:  - 20 strength, 35 dexterity, 22 cunning – 35 free attribute points

The stats look identical, but there are subtle differences.  Even moreso than the dual-wield rogue, you have no reason to boost strength.  Lethality *does* work for ranged weapons too, so unless you really want to wield a crossbow or wear medium armor, 20 is just fine.  You need a dexterity of at least 34 to wield the best longbows in the game – one more point gets you evasion.  I’d concentrate the free points on dexterity, cunning, and stamina, with constitution less important, since you won’t be taking many hits. 

Two-Handed Warrior:  - 42 strength, 18 dexterity, 16 cunning – 35 free attribute points

Your only real concern is strength. With 42 strength, you can wield all two-handed weapons, master all your talents, and wear massive armor.  The only real dexterity requirement is 18 for the warrior talent disengage.  As I stated above, attack bonuses seem to be additive, not average, so even though your dexterity plays a role in your attack bonus, the uber-high strength will be more important.  Like all warriors, magic is nearly useless, and cunning is useless except for coercion if it's the PC. Therefore, any remaining attribute points should be put into willpower (to cut massive fatigue) and constitution (since you can't dodge well, you'll be getting hit a whole lot). Don't even bother with a ranged weapon alternate - you'll probably be able to use a crossbow if you really want though.   You’ll never be the party tank – you are the damage dealer, so try and flank someone with a weapon and shield whenever possible. 

Weapon + Shield Warrior: 38 strength, 26 dexterity, 16 cunning – 31 free attribute points

This warrior requires a good balance of strength and dexterity.  Strength needs to be 32 to master all of your weapons and strength-based talents, and dexterity 26 to master all shield based requirements.   I suggest in this build boosting strength another six points to wear heavy armor.  With heavy armor and a kite shield, you have an armor value equal to 97.6% of the armor value of massive armor without a shield, and you get a four points added to your defense from the shield.  You’ll also have lower fatigue, meaning your willpower won’t have to be as high.  Of course, one could argue that weapon + shield really excels in tanking, since you’ll never hit as hard as two-handed, or as much as dual-wield.  Feel  free to spend the additional four points towards strength – or boost your constitution, willpower, or even dexterity.  You have a lot of options.  Bows, and especially crossbows can be well used as an alternate weapon configuration.

Dual Wield Warrior:  34 strength, 36 dexterity, 16 cunning – 25 free attribute points

This is by far the least free warrior build.  Your dexterity requirements are arguably higher than a rogue, as Dual Weapon Mastery is now a much more useful talent.  However, if you want to wield something beyond daggers (why else take this build over a rogue?) you need 31-32 strength.  Since speed, and not heavy hitting, is the point of this build, I’d keep this character in medium armor, which only requires two more attribute points towards strength.  Already this build risks being a class cannon, with little left over for constitution and willpower – spending another 4 to 8 strength would mean your stamina drains much quicker and you’ll take much harder hits in combat.  Besides – someone has to wear the top quality medium armor in the game.    Stay out of harm's way and flank the enemy. Bows or crossbows work fine as alternate weapons.

Ranged Bow Warrior: 20 strength, 34 dexterity, 16 cunning – 41 free attribute points. 

The basic build is deceptively similar to a ranged rogue, but offers a lot more potential for customization due to the large number of free points.  You only *need* 20 strength to be an effective archer, but you could pump it up more.  There are two additional warrior talents (death blow and perfect striking) which seem to be of dubious use to an archer, but you’ll need five additional strength for these.  Beyond this, you’ll get an attack bonus and be able to wear heavier armor.  Once you reach Master Archer, you won’t have any attack speed penalty for wearing heavy armor, though you still will for massive, so theoretically you could boost your strength to 38.  Personally, I think dexterity improvements are more worth it, as you improve your damage, your attack bonus, and your defense.  You shouldn’t be taking a ranged character into close combat anyway, and all spells are armor piercing, meaning increased armor only really helps your archer when facing other archers.    Either way, use the remainder of your attribute points after strength and dexterity on willpower first, then constitution.

Ranged Crossbow Warrior:  34 strength, 30 dexterity, 16 cunning, 31 free attribute points.

This is a very different build than a longbow-wielding warrior.  As crossbows need strength to wield, you need 30 by the game’s end to operate the best – might as well add four strength and consider medium armor the “base” for this ranged build.  Heavy armor is thus a smaller investment for the build than for a bowman.  You still need moderately high dexterity to work through the archery skill tree of course.  I think the crossbow works best in synergy with another warrior build – as a secondary talent line for weapon and shield or dual wielding warriors, since they too need a mixture of strength and dexterity. 

Modifié par telephasic, 01 novembre 2009 - 08:10 .

[Zlarm]

Great post. I'm not a big min/maxer but I do like to plan out my builds so that I don't get to the end of the game and realize I can't take some sweet talent because I don't have the required attributes.



I'm thinking of having weapon and shield warrior and I'm wondering about a few things from your post. Firstly I'm unsure what you're trying to convey here: "With heavy armor and a kite shield, you have an armor value equal to 97.6% of the armor value of massive armor without a shield, and you get a four points added to your defense from the shield". Wouldn't these depend on the type of massive armor and heavy armor and shield? And why not take massive armor and kite shield? Also can you explain what the difference is between armor and defense.



Finally you said heavy shields are useless. Are there really no benefits taking a heavy shield over a kite shield. What about small shields?

[Zlarm]

Sorry double post.

Modifié par Zlarm, 01 novembre 2009 - 08:42 .

[DrStripp]

are we sure that daggers are the only things dual wielders can have in their off hand until dual weapon mastery without a penalty?

[Reventage]

Yeah, I'm a bit disappointed with the Dual-Wield Rogue stat allocations, as it feels like they lack synergy. The stat requirements seem to be pulling us into all directions at the same time. This is something I've been mulling over for a while now.

The main qualm I have is that we're shoehorned into only using daggers due to high strength requirements on other weapons. Now using a low base damage weapon wouldn't be a problem normally, as the bonus damage from backstap should nicely compensate for this, but the problem comes from the fact that daggers use both Strength AND Dexterity for damage (or alternatively Cunning and Dex with Lethality).

If we assume this follows the same basic pattern as used in Journeys (which makes sense from a simplicity standpoint however much I have a problem with it from a balance one) that would mean that where as you get a full 1 extra point of damage from Strength with the heavier weapons, with daggers you get 0,5 from one point of either Str or Dex.

This basically means that to get that one point of extra damage we have to use two points where as Two-handed warriors for example only need one. This double cost will be more and more noticeable the higher level we are and lethality doesn't fix it, rather just shifts what other extra bits we get with our extra damage.

In the end this raises a question: Is lethality really going to be worth it? Would it be just better to try and have as high as possible Str with the Dual-wield Mastery skill and thus be gaining a larger bonus to damage from both better weapons and the damage points from strength.

Anyway, I haven't bothered doing any detailed math on which would be better in the end just because there are so many holes on the math behind combat mechanics that it really wouldn't have been worth it. I don't even know how much Str and Dex actually contribute towards damage with daggers and bows, just that they do. I'll just have to wait untill the game comes out and we'll get some real data. It's a pity that looking up this data will be a bit harder than necessary since they excluded detailed combat info from the game.

So yeah, what was that rant all about then? I suppose just an expression of my frustration from me trying to kill time waiting for the actual game by trying to solve math equations half of which are missing. Was bound to drive me mad sooner or later.

[telephasic]

Zlarm wrote...
I'm thinking of having weapon and shield warrior and I'm wondering about a few things from your post. Firstly I'm unsure what you're trying to convey here: "With heavy armor and a kite shield, you have an armor value equal to 97.6% of the armor value of massive armor without a shield, and you get a four points added to your defense from the shield". Wouldn't these depend on the type of massive armor and heavy armor and shield? And why not take massive armor and kite shield? Also can you explain what the difference is between armor and defense.

Finally you said heavy shields are useless. Are there really no benefits taking a heavy shield over a kite shield. What about small shields?

My basic point is that a weapon + shield warrior is by nature a bit more balanced than a two-handed warrior.  They concentrate on a mixture of strength and dexterity to defend as well as attack.  With a weapon + shield warrior decked out in full heavy armor with a kite sheild, he will be almost as well armored as your two-hander in massive armor, but he'll have a substantially higher defense (sheild + dex bonus).  

Now, you could of course spend another four attribute points towards 42 strength, then wear a full suit of massive armor and get a nice heavy shield.  You'll unquestionably be the best-armored character, and have an even larger defense bonus.  But those four points will mean sacrifice somewhere else - likely constitution, as you'll need higher willpower to deal with the massive fatigue costs of heavy armor. 

All normal armors/weapons in the game have seven tiers, with each tier having a higher strength or dexterity requirement.  From what I can tell, everything scales linerarly, so if level one medium armor is 50% more effective than level one leather, the same will be true comparing level seven of both.  It's highly possible (I haven't looked into magic items much, as I don't want major spoilers), that there might be, say a level six shield which has buffs good enough to make up for not being level seven.  I guess it's possible the most powerful items in the game of a set type may not even be made of level seven materials.  We'll have to wait and see.     

[telephasic]

DrStripp wrote...

are we sure that daggers are the only things dual wielders can have in their off hand until dual weapon mastery without a penalty?

Well, these are the only kinds of weapons:

Daggers
Longswords
Greatswords
Axes
Greataxes
Maces
Mauls
Shortbows
Longbows
Crossbows
Mage Staves

Nothing else is a small-sized weapon.  There are no shortswords or anything of the sort in the game, and I don't see any special items with an attribute to be a small weapon.  So I surmise daggers are what we're stuck with.

[Adrigaar]

i dont think its a case of without a penalty, from what i have read you need dual weapon mastery to put anything larger than a dagger in your offhand at all

[telephasic]

Reventage wrote...

Yeah, I'm a bit disappointed with the Dual-Wield Rogue stat allocations, as it feels like they lack synergy. The stat requirements seem to be pulling us into all directions at the same time. This is something I've been mulling over for a while now.

The main qualm I have is that we're shoehorned into only using daggers due to high strength requirements on other weapons. Now using a low base damage weapon wouldn't be a problem normally, as the bonus damage from backstap should nicely compensate for this, but the problem comes from the fact that daggers use both Strength AND Dexterity for damage (or alternatively Cunning and Dex with Lethality).

If we assume this follows the same basic pattern as used in Journeys (which makes sense from a simplicity standpoint however much I have a problem with it from a balance one) that would mean that where as you get a full 1 extra point of damage from Strength with the heavier weapons, with daggers you get 0,5 from one point of either Str or Dex.

This basically means that to get that one point of extra damage we have to use two points where as Two-handed warriors for example only need one. This double cost will be more and more noticeable the higher level we are and lethality doesn't fix it, rather just shifts what other extra bits we get with our extra damage.

In the end this raises a question: Is lethality really going to be worth it? Would it be just better to try and have as high as possible Str with the Dual-wield Mastery skill and thus be gaining a larger bonus to damage from both better weapons and the damage points from strength.

Anyway, I haven't bothered doing any detailed math on which would be better in the end just because there are so many holes on the math behind combat mechanics that it really wouldn't have been worth it. I don't even know how much Str and Dex actually contribute towards damage with daggers and bows, just that they do. I'll just have to wait untill the game comes out and we'll get some real data. It's a pity that looking up this data will be a bit harder than necessary since they excluded detailed combat info from the game.

So yeah, what was that rant all about then? I suppose just an expression of my frustration from me trying to kill time waiting for the actual game by trying to solve math equations half of which are missing. Was bound to drive me mad sooner or later.

Interesting analysis.  The one thing you're forgetting is that strength and dex bonuses are apparently ADDITIVE, not averaged.  So if you have +6 str and +10 dex, you have +16 damage, not +8.

[Reventage]

telephasic wrote...

Interesting analysis.  The one thing you're forgetting is that strength and dex bonuses are apparently ADDITIVE, not averaged.  So if you have +6 str and +10 dex, you have +16 damage, not +8.

I noticed that in your original post where you stated it was your understanding. Which is of course nice but without a Dev quote it's not any more relevant than my delusions about it basically using the average. *Grin*

This is exactly the reason why I've tried to avoid thinking about this too much. Not all data is in.

The reason I do believe this to be using the divided half value is basically that Journeys did it this way. They did some things different from the base game but there was really no reason to change that.

Also I can't remember a game where they'd actually had gone the other way where as I've seen split styles before.

Finally if both stats were to add full point of damage you'd get greater benefit from the base stats that you would with a single stat based weapon. This might make it all a bit too easy when combined withbeing able to focus all points into beneficial attributes..

Usually the easiest and cleanest option is just to make damage from all weapons split between two attributes or all weapons having extra damage from one single attribute, even if that attribute varies based on a weapon. Mixing both up usually ends up gimping the other a bit.

Still, I could be wrong.

I still think that this whole not explaining the ruleset thing before release is some devious method of driving all their fans who come from a DnD based, transparent, systems slowly insane.

*Major edits to reach some semblance of clarity. (And even later changed a don't to do. Go me.)*

Modifié par Reventage, 02 novembre 2009 - 07:57 .

[LaztRezort]

Something else I've thought about, which may have been addressed but I missed it, is how different items will end up affecting these choices. I now this game will not be a loot fest, but I wonder if some items (especially late game) will grant bonuses that specifically enhance, for example, dual-wielding. I could imagine some specialty items relaxing a requirement slightly, or an especially damaging dagger, could make duel-wielding (or other archetypes) more appealing.



As a side note, I will most likely hold off on this type of powergaming until 2nd (or 3rd or 4th!) playthrough, however, preferring to get a good taste of the story until I start micro-managing stats. That's part of why I'm leaning to good ol' sword&board for first time, seems easy to build without making the game too hard.

[telephasic]

LaztRezort wrote...

Something else I've thought about, which may have been addressed but I missed it, is how different items will end up affecting these choices. I now this game will not be a loot fest, but I wonder if some items (especially late game) will grant bonuses that specifically enhance, for example, dual-wielding. I could imagine some specialty items relaxing a requirement slightly, or an especially damaging dagger, could make duel-wielding (or other archetypes) more appealing.

As a side note, I will most likely hold off on this type of powergaming until 2nd (or 3rd or 4th!) playthrough, however, preferring to get a good taste of the story until I start micro-managing stats. That's part of why I'm leaning to good ol' sword&board for first time, seems easy to build without making the game too hard.

1.  I'm trying not to read the PRIMA info on weapons too closely (that will give spoilers) but no, there are no items similar to KOTOR which give you a talent for free.  Some do boost stats, which may or may not help with talent requirements. 

2.  I don't consider this to be powergaming.  Powergaming is attempting to beat the system.  We're just trying to understand the system here.  I suppose I understand for RP reasons not really wanting to think about where the character will end up, but I'd hate to see people, for example, going into full-sized weapons and heavier armor with a rogue without knowing what they're getting into. 

[Astalder]

This is fantastic work, thank you telephasic. I'm encouraged that I reached the same conclusions regarding a dual weapon warrior on my own, lets me know I'm on the right track. I'm thinking Medium Armor, Dual Longswords, Coercion, Combat Training as a base. Not sure what to do with the remaining skill points, maybe dabble, but since I have other party members Combat Tactics may be in order.

What I really need to wrap my head around is the talents... there's so many when you throw in the specializations. It's like a MMO, which I love, except you can't respec so I live in terror that I'll go down a path and realize the skills are awful or redundant and have no other options.  I'm honestly not sure what specializations will work best with a dual weapon warrior paired with Alistair... beserker and reaver maybe?  Feels a bit too evil...

Modifié par Astalder, 02 novembre 2009 - 01:48 .

[Alienraptor]

This is an interesting analysis. I'm curious what attribute-boosting items will do to the relative build balance; e.g., an overabundance of very powerful +STR items might favor STR-dependent builds. Then again, they could also compensate for gaps in other builds, so their effect could either be unbalancing (overly favorable to certain builds), very complex (interact with particular builds in very different ways), or almost null (similarly favorable to a variety of builds but in differing ways).

Also, have you considered how the various specializations interact with the first analysis? Since specializations provide various attribute or stat boosts, they can potentially affect the viability of certain builds; the fact that there are 2 specialization opportunities further complicates things. I really haven't the time to figure it all out, but I think it's worth looking into if you want to be comprehensive.

We're still pretty limited by what information is available to us, so I wouldn't be surprised by a veritable flood of power builds and horrifically boring maths on the forums next week. I'll just be playing the freaking game.

[LaztRezort]

telephasic wrote...
2.  I don't consider this to be powergaming.  Powergaming is attempting to beat the system.  We're just trying to understand the system here.  I suppose I understand for RP reasons not really wanting to think about where the character will end up, but I'd hate to see people, for example, going into full-sized weapons and heavier armor with a rogue without knowing what they're getting into. 

Of course; I agree.  The term "powergaming" was badly chosen on my part, since it seemingly has unsavory overtones to many RPGers.  Apologies if it made me sound inflated.

I do appreciate the effort you and others are putting into this, however, as I'm sure there will come a point where I will like to have this sort of info, just perhaps not on my 1st playthrough (unless I keep dying, which is a possibility).

[NetBeansAndJava]

http://www.dragonage...rength&mode=and



according to this post by Georg Zoeller, crossbows do NOT require strength while bows DO. Slightly different from other games.

[clone_rizzo]

to the OP... 22 cunning isn't required for a rogue. In fact you don't have to put a single point in cunning if you don't want to (making a duelist type character or perhaps you have zevran or leliana for stealth / rogue skills)

[gersen16]

Could I have some recommendations for a rogue who is primarily going to take the fun 'thiefy' skills first - coercion (persuade), lockpicking, sneaking, backstabbing? I'm mostly playing for the story for the first time, but don't want to mess up too much. Is it worth getting into archery or dual-wielding at all? Or just stick to the trusty dagger?



I'm a relative newbie to these games; your help would be much appreciated.

[Zilod]

good job there, just adding a pair of things

for rogue it seem that cunning and lethality is not that good in melee, but if hiding will roll on cunning here that it could become an usefull stat for the assassin oriented rog

do you know if attack speed is the same for all the weapons?

if not then i will be not that worried about the difference in dmg bonus between 2h weapons and 1h ones as, if the dmg bonus is addictive, the lighter weapons will apply it more often (expecially with dual wield)

same can be said for poison (if it will possible to apply a +dmg poison to a weapon) as the fastest weapon will apply it more often.

actually i'm more concerned about the shield+1h vs 2h... if the bonus from shield is not that high maybe it will be just more work going 1h and putting more points in const for more hps... if so 2h can probably be the best tank with higher dmg/aggro and more effective hps

Modifié par Zilod, 02 novembre 2009 - 02:53 .

[Sharog]

I believe u get 1 extra points per lvl after u finished the joining. atleast that is what i heard, with 17-18 extra stats points it makes alot of ur build less "gimp"

[VaxiusStorn]

gersen16 wrote...

Could I have some recommendations for a rogue who is primarily going to take the fun 'thiefy' skills first - coercion (persuade), lockpicking, sneaking, backstabbing? I'm mostly playing for the story for the first time, but don't want to mess up too much. Is it worth getting into archery or dual-wielding at all? Or just stick to the trusty dagger?

I'm a relative newbie to these games; your help would be much appreciated.

Well all classes have skills and talents.  Coercion is a skill.  where as lock picking and sneaking are talents.  You get points for each as you progress in lvl.  The four rogue talent trees only at up to 16 points, and by lvl 22 which seems to be where you will be around by end game (18-22) you will have 24 talent points.  Each weapon has 3 trees that add to 12 points.  So you won't be able to max both your rogue tree, and your weapon tree. 

It is possible to max the rogue and max 2 of the 3 weapon trees, but even then you will be neglecting  the specialization classes.  Each specialization class has a single 4 talent tree, and you can take up to 2 specializations.  So if you wanted to ignore dual weapon and archery you could max the rogue tree and then pick up 2 specializations and you would have 24 points used.  I could be mistaken about the spec classes all having 4 talents.  The mage, rogue, and warrior all have 4 specialization classes each.  

Playing without a weapon spec could make the game harder, but this isn't a MMO so I say "Make your PC how you wanna make him.  Just enjoy the game.  If I am incorrect about any of this someone please correct anything that I was wrong about.  I tend to fly by the seat of my pants in single player RPGs, and not worry about the consequences... atleast my first time thru.

To the OP.  Good info.  Dont understand why Xbow would be str based, but if it is then oh well.  Otherwise good stuff.

[elemental150]

i've never really been in to min/maxing characters...I kind of pick a theme for that character and try to make them the best while sticking close to that theme.....

[gersen16]

Thanks heaps Vaxius - that helped a lot!

[VaxiusStorn]

NP. Also, keep in mind that the specializations have to be found in the game. So you cant just go into a specialization at a certain lvl. You have to do something to earn it. You have to complete a quest or find someone to train you in the specialization. Not sure on specifics with this, but that is what I have been made to believe. So you may end up picking up a few weapon skills here and there if you can't unlock the 2 spec classes that you want.

[SmCaudata]

Just a quick point. It doesn't matter if it averages or adds. You can still neglect one stat. If there is some funny formula with powers and roots or 75% of your low stat + 50% of your high stat then you would worry about keeping them equal. If it is a simple average or additive it doesn't matter.



Say you have 50 points between STR and DEX. If you averaged them, it would always be 25. Whether you have 10/40, 25/25, or 1/49.



Not that this affects your analysis in the end, but thought I'd point it out.