50 réponses à ce sujet

[TypoPanther]

I'm just glad that by the time I get the game (probably friday or saturday, assuming the EA shipping claim is correct) I will be able to absorb all the nice number crunching before I start. Although I would love to be playing on my own first... Ah well, what I get for trying to be a little responsible!

[Enderion De'Veryn]

NetBeansAndJava wrote...

http://www.dragonage...rength&mode=and

according to this post by Georg Zoeller, crossbows do NOT require strength while bows DO. Slightly different from other games.

I read this and since I'm making a ranged rogue for my first playthrough, I'm itching to know the strength/dex reqs for the Longbows.     The OP posted that to use the best longbows in the game you only need 20 strength, but after reading this I'm thinking that is wrong. 

Anymore info on this would be appreciated! 

Thanks to the OP for the rest of the info!

[childofbhaal]

The
OP posted that to use the best longbows in the game you only need 20
strength, but after reading this I'm thinking that is wrong. 

Anymore info on this would be appreciated!  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png

Thanks to the OP for the rest of the info!

He has the PRIMA guide. I have seen snips of the guide and I know it lists weapon stat requirements. I am going to guess he is right.

Modifié par childofbhaal, 02 novembre 2009 - 03:53 .

[Malanek]

Does Dexterity increase attack speed? Devs have said that it does in the past. Obviously not knowing the numbers it is difficult to say for certain, but if strength just provides a flat bonus to damage, then increasing your attack speed (dexterity) on slow but high damage weapons will actually increase your DPS more.

What was the thinking behind giving all your warriors 16 cunning? Just for the coercion? IMO it's a stat that warriors should be able to ignore if they choose. and can of course still get level 1 Coercion. I think it's also worth pointing out that it is probably not a good idea to raise Alistair or Stens cunning.

[Korgaah]

What the OP and many others in this thread are forgetting is that in a battle between what is worth more to a rogue Str or Cunning, Cunning will always win.. As it has been noted by a simple search of the stat explanations Cunning helps improve a rogues ability to BYPASS ARMOR... thus doing more damage on an average basis. If one simply pumps str with the intent of doing more melee dmg, higher levels mobs with increasingly stronger armor will scoff and Absorb... and then prolly eat your rogue for being stupid....

[NetBeansAndJava]

Malanek999 wrote...

Does Dexterity increase attack speed? Devs have said that it does in the past. Obviously not knowing the numbers it is difficult to say for certain, but if strength just provides a flat bonus to damage, then increasing your attack speed (dexterity) on slow but high damage weapons will actually increase your DPS more.
What was the thinking behind giving all your warriors 16 cunning? Just for the coercion? IMO it's a stat that warriors should be able to ignore if they choose. and can of course still get level 1 Coercion. I think it's also worth pointing out that it is probably not a good idea to raise Alistair or Stens cunning.

I doubt dex increases attack speed.  I know before there were posts that it did, but after reading the description in the character creator, it seems they removed that aspect of dex.

16 cunning is needed for rank 4 coercion.  Sure you can ignore it, but remember that only the PC can raise coercion, so if you don't grab it w/ your PC, you can't pass speech checks.  Also, at 16 cunning + rank 4 coercion, a dev said you can pass most persuation checks in the game, which is a good thing if you don't plan on intimidating through all speech checks.

People who've played the game at Warden's Quest said that coercion does indeed play an important role, so ignroing it completely might mean you can't access certain goodies or must do things "the hard way". 

[Reventage]

Korgaah wrote...

What the OP and many others in this thread are forgetting is that in a battle between what is worth more to a rogue Str or Cunning, Cunning will always win.. As it has been noted by a simple search of the stat explanations Cunning helps improve a rogues ability to BYPASS ARMOR... thus doing more damage on an average basis. If one simply pumps str with the intent of doing more melee dmg, higher levels mobs with increasingly stronger armor will scoff and Absorb... and then prolly eat your rogue for being stupid....

If that logic would hold true as is, then we'd have warriors stacking Cunning as well for armor penetration.

It's true that Cunning offers different benefits when used for damage with lethatlity than just using Strenght does. I stated as much in an earlier post. But AP bonus doesn't automatically make Cunning a win stat, especially when we don't know how exactly how it applies to damage.

Increasing AP is clearly a way to increase damage, but strenght also increases damage in multiple ways. Firstly, it gives a full and straight damage bonus to heavier weapons. It also enables you to use heavier weapons, which by default increases damage. You can also opt to use mauls that have a higher AP value to compensate for not spending points in cunning. It's not possible to state that one automatically wins over the other for a rogue.

So as you see, one could, with the data we have now, easily argue that a two-hander wielding rogue might be the best pure damage dealer in the end, just have her ingore both of the weapon talent trees available for a rogue and focus on massive strenght and  on sneak attacks. Of course she might fail royally in other aspects.

Not that it's the path I'm going to take.

Modifié par Reventage, 02 novembre 2009 - 10:53 .

[Arttis]

Take a look at duelist 2h rogue may not be that bad.

[Reventage]

Arttis wrote...

Take a
look at duelist 2h rogue may not be that bad.

Yeah, I've been playing around with an idea of a two-hander rogue with Duelist/Assassin specializations where you'd max out the specialization trees out in place of the weapon ones for a week now. Might be an interesting build but a bit of a glass cannon, so would probably be easier to simply go for a 2H warrior for staying power and better talent synergy, even if you'll lose a bit on damage.

It's all idle musings in the end though. The reason I actually chose to play a rogue on my first play trough was because I wanted to play a high Cunning, low Str character, so I'm going to go with a dagger DW lethality rogue. This whole alternative build thing comes from the strange way Bioware has handled rogue stat needs where we basically need *all* stats except for magic. And even that'd be useful for potions.

Modifié par Reventage, 02 novembre 2009 - 11:27 .

[telephasic]

I'll try and answer a bunch of questions at once...

[quote]Astalder wrote...
This is fantastic work, thank you telephasic. I'm encouraged that I reached the same conclusions regarding a dual weapon warrior on my own, lets me know I'm on the right track. I'm thinking Medium Armor, Dual Longswords, Coercion, Combat Training as a base. Not sure what to do with the remaining skill points, maybe dabble, but since I have other party members Combat Tactics may be in order.
[/quote]

I think your best bet will be taking a few ranks of survival.  Survival will be useful in combat for a warrior, whereas many of the item crafting feats can probably be done by companions at camp. 

[quote]Astalder wrote...
What I really need to wrap my head around is the talents... there's so many when you throw in the specializations. It's like a MMO, which I love, except you can't respec so I live in terror that I'll go down a path and realize the skills are awful or redundant and have no other options.  I'm honestly not sure what specializations will work best with a dual weapon warrior paired with Alistair... beserker and reaver maybe?  Feels a bit too evil...
[/quote]

You have a lot of options for specializations with a dual-weapon warrior, since you'll still be dealing with melee, and all of the warrior builds (except champion) have melee-based special attacks.  Don't feel like you *have* to max out your specialization however - if you have talents you'd rather spend points towards, just look at a specialization in terms of the bonus to your stats it provides. 

[quote]Alienraptor wrote...
This is an interesting analysis. I'm
curious what attribute-boosting items will do to the relative build
balance; e.g., an overabundance of very powerful +STR items might favor
STR-dependent builds. Then again, they could also compensate for gaps
in other builds, so their effect could either be unbalancing (overly
favorable to certain builds), very complex (interact with particular
builds in very different ways), or almost null (similarly favorable to
a variety of builds but in differing ways).
[/quote]

My philosophy is not to build a "requirement" for a given stat boosting item into a build.  Especially considering we don't know when we're going to find the items, or if you'll want that strength boosting slot for something which, for example, provides a damage bonus later on. 

[quote]Alienraptor wrote...
Also, have you
considered how the various specializations interact with the first
analysis? Since specializations provide various attribute or stat
boosts, they can potentially affect the viability of certain builds;
the fact that there are 2 specialization opportunities further
complicates things. I really haven't the time to figure it all out, but
I think it's worth looking into if you want to be comprehensive.
[/quote]

I've been researching specializations.  By far the hardest part is there are no clear indications for many of the specializarion trees which talents work for ranged characters (this is also a problem for generic warrior and rogue talents).  It's pretty clear, for example, that Ranger and Bard talents work fine for a ranged rogue, even though they don't compliment, but supplement archery.  In contrast, the base bonuses of Assassin and Duelist look damn good for an archer in terms of expanded attack, dexterity, and critical chance, but AFAIK only two out of the eight talents actually help ranged combat.  Warrior has similar problems - Champion is clearly okay for ranged, and templar is alright except the first-level talent is confirmed melee only.  But we don't know much about how berserker and reaver work yet in the game. 

[quote]NetBeansAndJava wrote...
http://www.dragonage...rength&mode=and

according
to this post by Georg Zoeller, crossbows do NOT require strength while
bows DO. Slightly different from other games.[/quote]

I can't use the link, but I had read that crossbows don't use strength either to calculate damage or attack.  However, according to the PRIMA guide, they do require strength to wield, which was an unusual choice.  That's why, as I said, they work best for a sword + shield or dual wield character, who has moderate strength and high dexterity.  

[quote]clone_rizzo wrote...
to the OP... 22 cunning isn't
required for a rogue. In fact you don't have to put a single point in
cunning if you don't want to (making a duelist type character or
perhaps you have zevran or leliana for stealth / rogue skills)[/quote]

Of course.  These were suggested builds, not required builds.  I'd say even if you have a two-rogue party you'd still want cunning of 16 to maximize coercion though.  You won't be able to take lockpicking or stealth past the second level, but that's not a great loss. 

[quote]gersen16 wrote...
Could I have some recommendations for a
rogue who is primarily going to take the fun 'thiefy' skills first -
coercion (persuade), lockpicking, sneaking, backstabbing? I'm mostly
playing for the story for the first time, but don't want to mess up too
much. Is it worth getting into archery or dual-wielding at all? Or just
stick to the trusty dagger?
[/quote]

There's really no point to single-weapon fighting in the game, you might as well dual wield.  As I said, stick to daggers (since you want to backstab) and light armors.  You'll get at least 24 talents over the course of the game - assuming you want to maximize rogue talents, you'll have eight free.  I'd concentrate on branch two of dual-weapon (it improves criticals, which are important as a rogue), and the assassin specialization if you want to backstab.  Extra feat points (we know there are a few) should go into branch one dual wield (more damage), and duelist (better in a straight-up fight). 

[quote]Zilod wrote...
for
rogue it seem that cunning and lethality is not that good in melee, but
if hiding will roll on cunning here that it could become an usefull
stat for the assassin oriented rog[/quote]

Lethality is *not* as good for a melee rogue as a ranged rogue, true.  However, once you get it, if you're wielding daggers there's no reason ever to boost strength again - as you get a strength bonus as well as the armor peircing bonus. 

Oh, and my understanding is any attack coming out of stealth is an automatic crit, even if it isn't backstabbing, which is why lethality is great for ranged weapons. 

[quote]Zilod wrote...
do you know if attack speed is the same for all the weapons?[/quote]

The PRIMA guide doesn't seem to have anything about weapon speed.  Not sure what that means.  

[quote]Zilod wrote...
if
not then i will be not that worried about the difference in dmg bonus
between 2h weapons and 1h ones as, if the dmg bonus is addictive, the
lighter weapons will apply it more often (expecially with dual wield)[/quote]

My understanding is the basic difference between dual weapon and two-handed is the latter is better and breaking through armor.  This is because armor is straight-up damage reduction in the game.  If you're hitting someone with armor of 10, and your dual longswords with 10 attack only have an armor peircing ability of 2 (example, not real numbers), each attack would only get four points of damage in.  On the other hand, doing the same thing with a greatsword of 20 with an armor peircing of 2, you'll get 12 damage in.  My understanding is dual weild is better against unarmored targets, so presumably there is a speed factor on the other side. 

[quote]Zilod wrote...
actually
i'm more concerned about the shield+1h vs 2h... if the bonus from
shield is not that high maybe it will be just more work going 1h and
putting more points in const for more hps... if so 2h can probably be
the best tank with higher dmg/aggro and more effective hps[/quote]

My understanding is two-handed warriors work best as the damage dealers, not the tanks.  They can wear massive armor more easily, but their defense is never going to be as high as they have low dex plus no shield (shields provide both defense and armor).  Best use against heavy-hitting targets like ogres is to flank and attack from behind. 

[quote]Sharog wrote...
I believe u get 1 extra points per lvl
after u finished the joining. atleast that is what i heard, with 17-18
extra stats points it makes alot of ur build less "gimp"[/quote]

That would make sense, as Chris Pristley's character had 14 more attribute points, IIRC, than what we have been told would make sense (suggesting he became a gray warden at level 8).  Of course, there are also tomes which give you extra attribute points in the game.  I'm not sure I'd say this makes any builds "less gimp" though.  The game is probably balanced for whatever the number of attribute points is you normally go through - and another dozen to twenty will affect all builds equally.  

[quote]Enderion De'Veryn wrote...
I read
this and since I'm making a ranged rogue for my first playthrough, I'm
itching to know the strength/dex reqs for the Longbows.     The
OP posted that to use the best longbows in the game you only need 20
strength, but after reading this I'm thinking that is wrong. 
[/quote]

You don't need strength at all for longbows - you need dexterity only (34 by endgame).  The 20 strength is to wear the best leather armor.  Longbows do use your strength in part of the damage calculation, but if you have lethality, this will switch to cunning. 

[quote]Malanek999 wrote...
Does Dexterity increase attack speed?
Devs have said that it does in the past. Obviously not knowing the
numbers it is difficult to say for certain, but if strength just
provides a flat bonus to damage, then increasing your attack speed
(dexterity) on slow but high damage weapons will actually increase your
DPS more.
[/quote]

Unfortunately, we know nothing about attack speed yet.  There is nothing in the PRIMA guide sections online about weapon speed, and nothing I have been able to find on how attributes affect anything besides the vague stuff we already know. 

[quote]Malanek999 wrote...
What was the thinking behind giving all your warriors 16
cunning? Just for the coercion? IMO it's a stat that warriors should be
able to ignore if they choose. and can of course still get level 1
Coercion. I think it's also worth pointing out that it is probably not
a good idea to raise Alistair or Stens cunning.[/quote]

This was based upon creating a PC - I figure the first time through, no one wants to miss out on persuasion or intimidation chances.  Of course, you have no reason to raise cunning if you don't have a PC or a rogue (unless you want access to combat tactics).  Interestingly, all of PRIMA's skill builds had warriors and mages with four ranks of coercion, but rogues with only one.  This suggests to me if you pump cunning high enough, you don't really need to maximize coercion. 

[quote]Korgaah wrote...
What the OP and many others in this
thread are forgetting is that in a battle between what is worth more to
a rogue Str or Cunning, Cunning will always win.. As it has been noted
by a simple search of the stat explanations Cunning helps improve a
rogues ability to BYPASS ARMOR... thus doing more damage on an average
basis. If one simply pumps str with the intent of doing more melee dmg,
higher levels mobs with increasingly stronger armor will scoff and
Absorb... and then prolly eat your rogue for being stupid....[/quote]

Uhh...I didn't forget that at all.  The ONLY reason I boost strength to 20 is you need that to wear high quality leather armors.  As I said, although 22 is the floor for cunning, I'd suggest you make it higher, particularly for a melee rogue, although a ranged rogue will still rely more on dexterity in combat. 

[quote]Reventage wrote...
This whole alternative build thing comes from the
strange way Bioware has handled rogue stat needs where we basically
need *all* stats except for magic. And even that'd be useful for
potions. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]
[/quote]

I know what you mean.  Warriors can essentially leave cunning (minus PC concerns) and magic alone).  Mages don't need to touch cunning (again, minus coercion) and strength.  Rogues really need five out of six skills.  Lethality is great, because it means you can stop caring about strength at all after a certain point, but it would have been better if it started letting you use your cunning score to wield weapons or wear armor. 

[Zilod]

just read the manual and it seem there are some variables to consider



the bonus of str for 2h weapons is *1.5

the bonus of str for weapon in second hand is 0.5



it seem that weapons have a cap for how much str bonus you can apply to them (but maybe i got it wrong and was just speaking of base dmg)



cunning boost AP for rogues and it seem it is used for saving throws of many rogue skills...

this mean that probably a rogue who want to take advantage of various mezzes, trapsand so on will have to put a good amount of points into cunning



weapons have indeed different attack speed (even if probably is not shown in weapon stats but) this makes indeed more difficult to calculate their effectiveness whitout knowing their stats ingame, expecially as the dmg bonus from stats seem to be added on weapon dmg and doesnt seem to be a +%... so if i have a dagger that swing every 0.5s i will apply that dmg bonus twice in a second (4 times in a second if i have 2 daggers) vs maybe once every 2s if i'm using a big 2h hammer

[clone_rizzo]

The manual implies that the "damage" statistic displayed on the character sheet factors in things like attack speed / rate of fire.



Hopefully it will be easy to compare, if not to actually calculate.

[Sovek]

Reventage wrote...

I noticed that in your original post where you stated it was your understanding. Which is of course nice but without a Dev quote it's not any more relevant than my delusions about it basically using the average. *Grin*

This is exactly the reason why I've tried to avoid thinking about this too much. Not all data is in.

The reason I don't believe this to be using the divided half value is basically that Journeys did it this way. They did some things different from the base game but there was really no reason to change that.

Also I can't remember a game where they'd actually had gone the other way where as I've seen split styles before.

Finally if both stats were to add full point of damage you'd get greater benefit from the base stats that you would with a single stat based weapon. This might make it all a bit too easy when combined withbeing able to focus all points into beneficial attributes..

Usually the easiest and cleanest option is just to make damage from all weapons split between two attributes or all weapons having extra damage from one single attribute, even if that attribute varies based on a weapon. Mixing both up usually ends up gimping the other a bit.

Still, I could be wrong.

I still think that this whole not explaining the ruleset thing before release is some devious method of driving all their fans who come from a DnD based, transparent, systems slowly insane.

*Major edits to reach some semblance of clarity*

According to the manual, attack score is calculated using the average of strength and dexterity, but it's not clear how damage is calculated for daggers and arrows. There's just a vague statement that "the damage from piercing weapons like daggers and arrows is also affected by dexterity." This is in addition to the strength modifier, which is divided by half for the off-hand weapon. Whether the damage modifier is an average like the attack score (which seems likely), additive, or uses some more complex math wizardry, I can't tell.

I think someone asked this, but it looks like weapon speed is an intrinsic characteristic of the weapon, and not affected by increasing PC levels or dex boosts. Again, this is only inferred from a vague statement, so I could be mistaken.

And for clarification, does lethality only grant the use of cunning/dex when calculating attack damage, or is this used for the attack score (to-hit) as well?

[Korgaah]

Reventage wrote...

Korgaah wrote...

What the OP and many others in this thread are forgetting is that in a battle between what is worth more to a rogue Str or Cunning, Cunning will always win.. As it has been noted by a simple search of the stat explanations Cunning helps improve a rogues ability to BYPASS ARMOR... thus doing more damage on an average basis. If one simply pumps str with the intent of doing more melee dmg, higher levels mobs with increasingly stronger armor will scoff and Absorb... and then prolly eat your rogue for being stupid....

If that logic would hold true as is, then we'd have warriors stacking Cunning as well for armor penetration.

It's true that Cunning offers different benefits when used for damage with lethatlity than just using Strenght does. I stated as much in an earlier post. But AP bonus doesn't automatically make Cunning a win stat, especially when we don't know how exactly how it applies to damage.

Increasing AP is clearly a way to increase damage, but strenght also increases damage in multiple ways. Firstly, it gives a full and straight damage bonus to heavier weapons. It also enables you to use heavier weapons, which by default increases damage. You can also opt to use mauls that have a higher AP value to compensate for not spending points in cunning. It's not possible to state that one automatically wins over the other for a rogue.

So as you see, one could, with the data we have now, easily argue that a two-hander wielding rogue might be the best pure damage dealer in the end, just have her ingore both of the weapon talent trees available for a rogue and focus on massive strenght and  on sneak attacks. Of course she might fail royally in other aspects.

Not that it's the path I'm going to take.

Nope.. str is only good for rogues who wish to wear the best leather armor.. High dex and high cunning will beat a low cunning, mid dex, high str rogue. because to get a backstab you need to either flank or sneak and guess what helps sneak... it sure isnt strength...also.. on average over a range of 1000s of hits... 2 attacks with dual wield are always better than one big slow attack... you get more chances to hit  more chances to crit... So  I am pretty sure the best rogues will not boost str beyond what the best leather armor requires.. unless they choose to RP their toon in a certain Thug Persona manner.

[Keepy]

Very interesting analysis. I planned to play first as a mage and was curious about how much HP per point in constitution is gained. There has been some controversy over whether it would be more advantageous to build spell power only up to a certain point and then flood points into Con, rather then continuing to feed magic. Anyone have any confirmation?

[Terwox_]

Good info



Bookmarked

[Reventage]

Korgaah wrote...

High dex and high cunning will beat a low cunning, mid dex, high str rogue. because to get a backstab you need to either flank or sneak and guess what helps sneak... it sure isnt strength...

If examples from previous games with backstab mechanics hold any water, probably over 90% of your backstabs in the game will be from you flanking an enemy, not sneaking up on them and hitting them coming out of stealth. This is mostly because at the beginning of the game you can't re-stealth once the combat has started. Flanking backstabs only take proper positioning and that is equally manageable with both a strenght and dex/cunning based rogues.

To be able to stealth during combat later in the game, you need the stealth skill at rank three or four. Now while a cunning rogue will have a definite upper hand with it, it doesn't mean a strenght based rogue would be completely inadept at it, seeing as she has the skill ranks which should by themselves provide a considerable bonus to the skill. She should be able to pull it off at least on mooks. That is assuming she even bothers getting sneak at all due to the highish cunning requirement and just puts those points saved straight into strenght gaining even greater a damabe bonus on all attacks.

Finally, a technicality: You don't actually get a auto-backstab when coming out of stealth. You'll get either automatic a crit or, if you have positioned yourself properly, a regular backstab. This is how I read it from the toolset wiki at least.  You can't get both, assuming I read the hit detection code properly. Both crits and backstabs use a very similar damage multiplier mechanic with nearly identical values but use different modifiers. Which you'd prefer would depend on which has a higher bonus for you.

So yeah, the bottom line would be that a str rogue would be worse than a cunning rogue in the very limited area of stealth based attacks, but that doesn't exclude her from utilizing the full force of backstabs.

Add to this the fact that the benefit of using larger weapons, the limited benefit of the cunning AP boost and the other points I listed earlier, it's fair to assume that in pure damage at least, it's quite possible for a str based rogue to outdo a dex/cunning one. Just wish I knew the exact math in all that.

Korgaah wrote...

on average over a range of 1000s of hits... 2
attacks with dual wield are always better than one big slow attack...
you get more chances to hit  more chances to crit...

This also seems false logic.

The frequency of crits is based on a percentile chance and functions as a simple multiplier.

So it doesn't matter if you can swing hundred times in ten minutes or sixty. Assuming that the devs have managed to balance the game so that the slower weapons deliver bigger hits than the fast swinging ones and that with both the Damage Per Second remains somewhat constant, you will get the same percentage of your damage from crits regardless. True, the numerical value of critical hits delivered on a the slower weapon would be lower, but then again the damage multiplied would be greater as well. It all balances out in the end.

The same applies to backstabs as the extra damage on those is based on a multiplier as well.

Thus to modify damage you need to look at stats and other multipliers. Which has been the core of the debate thus far.

Modifié par Reventage, 03 novembre 2009 - 08:14 .

[Reventage]

Right, the forum is a bit messed up.



I wrote a silly long post debating an inconsequential point, but once I edited it, the whole thing disappeared. It popped back up once after a refresh but then went *puff* again.



So yeah, hope it's still there, but if not the main point was that I was right and you were wrong.

[Trajan60]

Don't shortbows have a faster attack speed than longbows?

[ikarius]

A few questions on this-

1. What is the expected armor that you're basing the "20 str" for the dual wield rogue build on? (endgame).



2. Why is it you say we'll never use anything other than a dagger in our offhand? You make that conclusion, but don't explain WHY you get there. With those stats, there appears to be plenty of points left to pump str quite a bit for the high-end weapons/armor.

[CalibanX]

Has anyone tried to build a warrior or rogue with huge amounts of willpower instead of the more obvious choices?



Perhaps having lots of stamina & using abilities more often balances out not being as effective with them?

[drakedare]

why you say rogues should use just daggers instead of fullsized weaps for DW backstabin ? you do way more damage backstabing with a good 31req sword than with any dagger in the game, plus STR gives more overall damage than DEX for fullsized weaps.... My rogue had a starfang in the MH and a dagger in OH and I droped mobs b4 than cant even turn around to see whats wooping their asses

[DragonStealther]

I'm wondering why everyone is talking about cunning and not as much dex. When i plan out a rogue as a dex fighter (or maybe cun figther in DA) i always aim for three things. First, of course getting high attack bonuses so i'm sure to hit my target, second i go for high damage and last i go for defense. What i like about dex rogues and builds is that dex makes you harder to hit, meaning even if you're not fighting on your optimal conditions (a tank tanking the target while you hack away at them from behind) you stand a pretty good chance in a fight. I fully agree that strength isn't the way to go for rogues, i'd rather stick to daggers and boost cunning and dex, and then of course get the needed feats to let you add cunning instead of strength.



What irritates me is that in the good old D&D rules, it was the feat finesse that helped you, let you add dex bonus instead of strength. Which i love since dex also enhances your ability to dodge incoming blows and usually paired with evasion skills it's quite overpowered. But how does this work in DA? I really just wanna boost my dex, to get the added damage and the dodge bonus, what i'm wondering is how much dex really helps and how much you should prioritize it, i had hoped to find some comments on that here but noone really seems to be talking much about the defensive part of dex.

[Basher of Glory]

Currently I have one rogue at level 17 and one 2WF-fighter at level 11, both with high DEX (~50 incl. items), of course.
Although the fighter does not have evasion, she is nearly identical to the rogue's dodge (defense): Both have over 100.

What I noticed:
Both are the last to fall, when fights become tough, but that's the exception.
Compared to Sten or the dwarf, the survivability of DEX-based characters seems to be excellent.
I can give Sten the best massive armour but when I don't pay attention and micromanage him, he gets beaten up in no time. The same goes for the dwarf.
While I micromanage the so called heavy hitters, I can leave my rogue or my 2WF-fighter alone. They hardly take damage, I can make a living by selling health pots and they are damage dealers par excellence.

So in my eyes a DEX-based character is far superior to any other melee type in this game, regarding the aspect of "not to get hit".
My conclusion: The dodge-value is by any account the better one and to prefer over the raw AC comming from armour.

BTW, as addition to the high dodge both, 2WF-fighter and rogue, can wear decent armour, which makes them even tougher.

Modifié par Baher of Glory, 03 décembre 2009 - 02:13 .

[ReD_SoA]

Why would you need STR on a rogue with letality?