429 réponses à ce sujet

[Someone With Mass]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Lol? Who uses them for their guns? They've always been terrible unless you wanted them to be decoys or for their biotic and tech support.

Right...I personally think it's pretty clear when they're using their guns.

[Il Divo]

AlanC9 wrote...

This is where we part company on what we want from the game in the first place. You see Shepard as an explorer. I don't. It isn't in her job description, and shouldn't be. I would have preferred if ME had about as much exploration as KotOR. People didn't need exploration to believe in the big galaxy from that game; is that just because it was Star Wars?

Over-designed and over-inhabited doesn't make any sense to me, because the habitiation of these places is the point of going to them.

Agreed. In general, I thought planet exploration was a bit too gimicky for what Mass Effect 1 trying to focus on. KotOR and Dragon Age: Origins are much better examples of how to make the world feel large, without using massive areas.

[tetrisblock4x1]

Someone With Mass wrote...

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Lol? Who uses them for their guns? They've always been terrible unless you wanted them to be decoys or for their biotic and tech support.

Right...I personally think it's pretty clear when they're using their guns.

My favorite rocket launcher is the one from TF2.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

slimgrin wrote...

Jesus, I would have argued over the story bits of both games, but not the gameplay. ME2 wins hands down imo.

This. It's just more fun and unquestionably more polished.

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

Lol? Who uses them for their guns?
They've always been terrible unless you wanted them to be decoys or for
their biotic and tech support.

The point is we SHOULD use them for their guns too as the game tries to show us the're capable of using it.

And yes I use them for that too, when some enemy is low on health or I want some covering fire for some especific enemy that I think could be annoying when I charge to either be a distraction or lower their health. It usually works.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

This is where we part company on what we want from the game in the first place. You see Shepard as an explorer. I don't. It isn't in her job description, and shouldn't be.

Her job description as Spectre is to achieve results by any means necessary.  She's an explorer if she thinks that's the best way to get results.

Being unable to look around is a serious failing in ME2.  ME2 doesn't let Shepard go anywhere unless it spoonfeeds you the intelligence first.

[tetrisblock4x1]

You were told where to go to get results.

[Il Divo]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...


Her job description as Spectre is to achieve results by any means necessary.  She's an explorer if she thinks that's the best way to get results.

True, but any gameplay element can be justified by the claim that the protagonist thinks it would produce results. I personally have little interest in playing a Shepard who thinks that the best method of stopping Saren is to wander from planet to planet killing Rachni and merc bases, without any kind of evident logic to it.

Modifié par Il Divo, 30 janvier 2012 - 05:06 .

[eqzitara]

Why do you have 2 new threads a day.....
I remember one where soldier was unarguably the best class and all who disagreed were wrong.

Modifié par eqzitara, 30 janvier 2012 - 05:08 .

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Her job description as Spectre is to achieve results by any means necessary.  She's an explorer if she thinks that's the best way to get results.

And ME1's exploration achieves this...... how? If it's about gaining credits and levels, this sounds like yet another case of RPG elements making the role-playing worse, much worse.

ME2's exploration is marginally better, since planet scanning means that we have a reason for going to those planets. But it's a stupid reason, since Cerberus has other ships and those ships should be doing the mining.

Being unable to look around is a serious failing in ME2.  ME2 doesn't let Shepard go anywhere unless it spoonfeeds you the intelligence first.

Huh? In the case of the N7 assignments, that's false -- or by go anywhere do you mean "land"?

To the extent it's true for the main missions ME2 is no different from ME1, or most other Bio games.

Modifié par AlanC9, 30 janvier 2012 - 08:15 .

[AlanC9]

eqzitara wrote...

Why do you have 2 new threads a day.....
I remember one where soldier was unarguably the best class and all who disagreed were wrong.

It's what he does.

The real question is why you're reading his threads. You should know what to expect by now.

[Rudy Lis]

CubbieBlue66 wrote...

Mass Effect on Insanity - Toss singularity in the middle of the room. Use lift, throw, or squadmate powers on enemies not caught in the singularity. Stand in the middle of the room and slowly whittle down enemy health. You're never shot at and never die... it's just a slow grind killing things.

Take [censored] risk - don't use biotics teammates!

CubbieBlue66 wrote...

Mass Effect 2 on Insanity - Varied and challenging gameplay.

What "varied"? Oh, you mean you can use shotgun, pistol, sniper rifle, assault rifle, heavy weapon and punch to kill enemies? Well, it's "varied" than. There is no variety in ME2 - "gun them down" works always.
"Challenging"? Not sure. Outside of DLCs' missions, there is little challenge in ME2. I had problems in two places - two last vents on entry phase of Collector's base (too many collectors, Harbringer spawns too often and spams his "whatever-ball" too much, plus teammates don't follow order to stay behind initial cover and dies too fast) and final fight, mostly because teammates died too often and didn't stayed in cover properly. Object Rho was PITA too, obviously.
Specific teammates were useful only versus hordes of husks, after you strip their armor down, or against geth or mechs. But even there they were optional. Not that much variety.
Or you meant you could choose any teammates and have problems forcing them to follow your orders? If yes, then I totally agree with you.

CubbieBlue66 wrote...

Different environments.

Same environments, only coloured differently and with "unique" layout. Practically same thing we had in ME, only with better textures and cramped into intestine-alike corridors.

CubbieBlue66 wrote...

More enemy types.

Same as before, minus thorian creepers and rachni, but plus mechs and collectors. Oh, plus gunships. Definitely more.

N.B. Certain amount of humour applied.

Modifié par Rudy Lis, 30 janvier 2012 - 07:34 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

And ME1's exploration achieves this...... how? If it's about gaining credits and levels, this sounds like yet another case of RPG elements making the role-playing worse, much worse.

ME2's exploration is marginally better, since planet scanning means that we have a reason for going to those planets. But it's a stupid reason, since Cerberus has other ships and those ships should be doing the mining.

No, you're accepting the game's narrative without question.  in ME1, there are all sorts of rumours swirling around the uncharted worlds, and Shepard could well think that any one of them is likely to be Saren's doing.  Similarly, he could think that the intelligence directing him to Noveria or Feros is suspect, or too neat, or looks like a trap, and go looking for other leads instead.

Only if you accept as true everything Udina and Anderson and Hackett tell you is true would you never have reason to visit those other worlds.

Huh? In the case of the N7 assignments, that's false -- or by go anywhere do you mean "land"?

To the extent it's true for the main missions ME2 is no different from ME1, or most other Bio games.

Why are you making a distinction between the main missions and the side missions?  That's a metagame divide that doesn't exist within the game's reality.

[ODST 3]

Smoother, faster, felt more like you fighting than pushing buttons. ME 2's combat is miles ahead of ME 1's. From the look of things, ME 3 is taking another step in the right direction.

[No Snakes Alive]

Because it's vastly superior in every way, shape and form. Just venturing a guess here...

[Il Divo]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...


No, you're accepting the game's narrative without question.  in ME1, there are all sorts of rumours swirling around the uncharted worlds, and Shepard could well think that any one of them is likely to be Saren's doing.  Similarly, he could think that the intelligence directing him to Noveria or Feros is suspect, or too neat, or looks like a trap, and go looking for other leads instead.

Only if you accept as true everything Udina and Anderson and Hackett tell you is true would you never have reason to visit those other worlds.

Or if Shepard is insane, to some extent. There is absolutely nothing in the narrative to link Shepard to Earth's Moon, or that Biotic Commune, or any random number of merc bases. I don't think that should be a requisite playstyle in order for my Shepard to enjoy side quests. It certainly wasn't in other Bioware games.

[Eckswhyzed]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

And ME1's exploration achieves this...... how? If it's about gaining credits and levels, this sounds like yet another case of RPG elements making the role-playing worse, much worse.

ME2's exploration is marginally better, since planet scanning means that we have a reason for going to those planets. But it's a stupid reason, since Cerberus has other ships and those ships should be doing the mining.

No, you're accepting the game's narrative without question.  in ME1, there are all sorts of rumours swirling around the uncharted worlds, and Shepard could well think that any one of them is likely to be Saren's doing.  Similarly, he could think that the intelligence directing him to Noveria or Feros is suspect, or too neat, or looks like a trap, and go looking for other leads instead.

Only if you accept as true everything Udina and Anderson and Hackett tell you is true would you never have reason to visit those other worlds.

Huh? In the case of the N7 assignments, that's false -- or by go anywhere do you mean "land"?

To the extent it's true for the main missions ME2 is no different from ME1, or most other Bio games.

Why are you making a distinction between the main missions and the side missions?  That's a metagame divide that doesn't exist within the game's reality.

Wait, what? Do we have any reason that the information given (Geth sightings, Benezia's daughter) is unreliable? I'm interested in hearing you expand on this.

-------------------------------

About exploring: I definitely was not a fan of ME1 "exploration". Sure, you could drive around some barren mountains for a while and get a sense of "scale" but there was never anything interesting to find. It was normally just some storage crate of credits or weapon upgrades. Either interesting travel (e.g. Assassin's Creed) or interesting rewards should be necessary for good exploration. ME1 had neither for me. In fact, I'm not really a fan  of exploration in ME in general. Leave the exploring to those damn colonists and let Shepard focus on kicking ass

[Kwest253]

Epsilon330 wrote...

ME1 had storyline/plot. Gameplay suffered a bit.
ME2 had gameplay. Storyline suffered compared to ME1. It was too linear, too character-mapped.
ME3 hopefully will have the best of both worlds.

agreed

[Sylvius the Mad]

Il Divo wrote...

Or if Shepard is insane, to some extent. There is absolutely nothing in the narrative to link Shepard to Earth's Moon, or that Biotic Commune, or any random number of merc bases.

Nothing in the explicit narrative.  But why limit yourself to that?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Eckswhyzed wrote...

Wait, what? Do we have any reason that the information given (Geth sightings, Benezia's daughter) is unreliable?

Do we have an reason to believe its reliable?  The rational default posiion is one of uncertainty.

About exploring: I definitely was not a fan of ME1 "exploration". Sure, you could drive around some barren mountains for a while and get a sense of "scale" but there was never anything interesting to find.

Exploration isn't about finding.  Exploration is about looking.

[Il Divo]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Il Divo wrote...

Or if Shepard is insane, to some extent. There is absolutely nothing in the narrative to link Shepard to Earth's Moon, or that Biotic Commune, or any random number of merc bases.

Nothing in the explicit narrative.  But why limit yourself to that?

I simply find it unappealing. I consider the essential aspects of role-playing to be action-reaction. If the game world says X, I want to respond with Y. Ultimately, I consider control over both action and reaction to be in defiance of role-playing. 

Under those parameters, I don't really enjoy imagining a motive for Shepard to explore the uncharted worlds. The game gave me nothing to link Luna to Saren, so there is no connection.  

[upsettingshorts]

Heh Sylvius I had been checking the thread periodically and wondering why you hadn't responded to my post. Have we covered Mass Effect gameplay extensively before?

[Malik84]

You people must really have an amazingly boring life to keep this "discussion" going that long. I feel sorry for you. I really do. Jesus.

[Heimdall]

Frankly, ME2 combat just plays much more smoothly than it's predecessor.

[Terror_K]

Il Divo wrote...

I simply find it unappealing. I consider the essential aspects of role-playing to be action-reaction. If the game world says X, I want to respond with Y. Ultimately, I consider control over both action and reaction to be in defiance of role-playing. 

Under those parameters, I don't really enjoy imagining a motive for Shepard to explore the uncharted worlds. The game gave me nothing to link Luna to Saren, so there is no connection.  

Aside from the fact that that's the whole point of sidequests: that they aren't related to the main one(s), there was plenty of reasons for you to go to the Uncharted Worlds. None of them were "just there" because they all had a story reason to go there. Luna, since you mentioned it, was in regards to a rogue VI and by going there you're helping the Alliance. There are several of these type of missions, several with regards to stopping Cerberus, and even some Geth invasion related stuff. The rest are usually related to Shepard simply being a hero because he/she is asked for help, which he/she is supposed to be. If you could land on them, there was a quest linked to them somehow.

And at least in ME1 these quests had a proper story and set-up to get you there. 90% of ME2's were simply, "scan a planet and an anomaly comes up" so you go down, interacting with nobody interesting with no dialogue choices and no particularly interesting circumstances in a gimmicky, small and linear area that feels like running around a movie set more than an actual place.

[Il Divo]

Terror_K wrote...

Aside from the fact that that's the whole point of sidequests: that they aren't related to the main one(s), there was plenty of reasons for you to go to the Uncharted Worlds. None of them were "just there" because they all had a story reason to go there. Luna, since you mentioned it, was in regards to a rogue VI and by going there you're helping the Alliance. There are several of these type of missions, several with regards to stopping Cerberus, and even some Geth invasion related stuff. The rest are usually related to Shepard simply being a hero because he/she is asked for help, which he/she is supposed to be. If you could land on them, there was a quest linked to them somehow.

Then they're doing them wrong. Mass Effect's premise is "race against time". If it's a race against time, Shepard shouldn't be taking time out of his bloody day to run haflway across the galaxy doing random people's errands.

Now, if Mass Effect's side quests were actually built into the setting, in the style of KotOR or Jade Empire, it would be fine. There, the main quest doesn't have an apparent time limit, and most side quests are integrated into the main narrative extremely well. Mass Effect doesn't do this, so in essence they're worthless.

And at least in ME1 these quests had a proper story and set-up to get you there. 90% of ME2's were simply, "scan a planet and an anomaly comes up" so you go down, interacting with nobody interesting with no dialogue choices and no particularly interesting circumstances in a gimmicky, small and linear area that feels like running around a movie set more than an actual place.

I don't want "better than ME2". I want good side quests. I got those in KotOR and Jade Empire. Mass Effect's were crap, by comparison, following the same terrible pattern which you outlined for ME2.

Modifié par Il Divo, 31 janvier 2012 - 12:26 .