429 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Heh Sylvius I had been checking the thread periodically and wondering why you hadn't responded to my post. Have we covered Mass Effect gameplay extensively before?

Hi, Shorts.  I didn't notice you in the thread.  I'll look back to find your remarks.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Il Divo wrote...

I simply find it unappealing. I consider the essential aspects of role-playing to be action-reaction. If the game world says X, I want to respond with Y. Ultimately, I consider control over both action and reaction to be in defiance of role-playing. 

If you let the game tell you what conditions inform Y, what input are you really having?

I'm not saying you should invent justification for visiting the uncharted worlds.  I'm saying that there exist possible designs of Shepard's personality which would lead to a desire to visit those worlds based on the other information provided by the game.

Simply put, your reaction Y is based on both the world saying X and the details of your PC's personality (which are known only to you).

[tobynator89]

ME2 was far superior in terms of weapon variety (as in the feel of the weapon, every ME1 weapon felt the freaking same), character responsiveness, combat mechanics, AI intelligence, and general class balance. It got rid of the irksome, infuriatingly badly designed vehicle sections and overall made everything a whole lot more enjoyable.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I like it when guns have different properties and there's a reward for player accuracy in games involving firearms. Eg, a gunshot to the head does more damage than one to the foot.  But that's an oversimplification, let me elaborate:

I respect the RPG convention that the targeting circle of ME1 represents, no question, I just don't believe it makes for a fun game.

That isn't to say I don't enjoy games with firearms that employ RPG mechanics - VATS in modern Fallout, and the action point system that preceded it in FO1-2 were fine too - but a third person firearm based game plays better as more of a shooter to me.

However, that doesn't mean I'm against RPG mechanics in Mass Effect, nothing could be further from the truth, but the meat of the gameplay, pointing a targeting reticule at a hostile, depressing the trigger, having the "feel" of how the gun works, and having to manage ammunition - all conventions that work for me in a way I can appreciate. That Shepard couldn't hit the broadside of a barn early in Mass Effect 1 seriously hampered my immersion and enjoyment, not because I didn't understand what the system was doing, but because it felt so unnatural.

What do I mean? If I'm looking at say, shooting the Geth on Eden Prime in a top-down isometric turn-based game where the third person view and circle has been replaced by a "25%" over the top of the enemy Geth, that's something that feels right to me.

But if I'm looking down the barrel of a gun with the target in my sights and still miss then the perspective of the player towards the situation in the game creates certain expectations - at least for me - that the more detached perspective does not. When the game presents this dichotomy, between how I think the game ought to work versus how it does work, gameplay suffers because I feel like there's a struggle between my instincts and the mechanics.

In short: ME2 is simply more intuitive, therefore rewards for success and punishment for failure seem less arbitrary.

That isn't to say ME2 did everything better than ME1, that's not the point. I'm addressing the primary difference between the two games.

Well, that's easy.  I simply deny the existence of intuition.

I want that "25%" feedback system regardless of the interface.  In fact, I'll go so far as to say ME1's combat interface, with aiming-while-paused plus the cone of death is the best shooter-interface RPG combat I have ever seen.  There simply is no shooter-interface RPG that does combat better than Mass Effect does it.

[Il Divo]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If you let the game tell you what conditions inform Y, what input are you really having?

That only assumes that I can have a single output. I don't see it like that. Perhaps a better way of putting it is that I want the game to say X, then let me respond with whatever variable I desire.

But I want that basis to be supported (in some capacity) by the information which the world gives me. I'm given nothing regarding Major Kyle's Biotic Commune with relation to Saren. So without something to react to, I don't see a reason to consider it relevant.

I'm not saying you should invent justification for visiting the uncharted worlds.  I'm saying that there exist possible designs of Shepard's personality which would lead to a desire to visit those worlds based on the other information provided by the game.

Simply put, your reaction Y is based on both the world saying X and the details of your PC's personality (which are known only to you).

But none connected to Saren, which is my point with the VI on Earth's moon scenario.

The designs of Shepard's personality which might (in some absurd fashion) connect Luna to Saren, without any evidence, is simply not one I'm particularly interested in acting out.

Modifié par Il Divo, 31 janvier 2012 - 12:43 .

[Terror_K]

Il Divo wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Aside from the fact that that's the whole point of sidequests: that they aren't related to the main one(s), there was plenty of reasons for you to go to the Uncharted Worlds. None of them were "just there" because they all had a story reason to go there. Luna, since you mentioned it, was in regards to a rogue VI and by going there you're helping the Alliance. There are several of these type of missions, several with regards to stopping Cerberus, and even some Geth invasion related stuff. The rest are usually related to Shepard simply being a hero because he/she is asked for help, which he/she is supposed to be. If you could land on them, there was a quest linked to them somehow.

Then they're doing them wrong. Mass Effect's premise is "race against time". If it's a race against time, Shepard shouldn't be taking time out of his bloody day to run haflway across the galaxy doing random people's errands.

Now, if Mass Effect's side quests were actually built into the setting, in the style of KotOR or Jade Empire, it would be fine. There, the main quest doesn't have an apparent time limit, and most side quests are integrated into the main narrative extremely well. Mass Effect doesn't do this, so in essence they're worthless.

You speak as if ME1's the only BioWare game that's had a race against time. Sure, it's probably the most obvious one, what with having the main quest even called "Race Against Time" and all, but it's not an isolated incident. Baldur's Gate 2 had a race against time trying to get Imoen back from Irenicus as he tortured her for a good portion of the game. KotOR had you racing to find the star maps while the "Sith" launched unlimited fighters across the galaxy. Jade Empire was presented as a race against time. Dragon Age: Origins had the blight spreading further and further over time. ME2 had colonies being attacked by The Collectors as time went past.

Almost all of BioWares tiles have a main quest that tries to stress that time is a factor and have logic holes as to their presentation of sidequests given this. ME3 is going to have The Reapers literally assaulting the galaxy pretty much from the get-go, so it's not even a race against time so much as a fact that time has already run out. So I don't honestly see how you can do proper sidequests* at all in ME3 given these circumstances.

* = "Proper sidequests" meaning quests that aren't related to the main story at all.

[Il Divo]

Terror_K wrote...

You speak as if ME1's the only BioWare game that's had a race against time. Sure, it's probably the most obvious one, what with having the main quest even called "Race Against Time" and all, but it's not an isolated incident. Baldur's Gate 2 had a race against time trying to get Imoen back from Irenicus as he tortured her for a good portion of the game. KotOR had you racing to find the star maps while the "Sith" launched unlimited fighters across the galaxy. Jade Empire was presented as a race against time. Dragon Age: Origins had the blight spreading further and further over time. ME2 had colonies being attacked by The Collectors as time went past.

Well, that's not entirely accurate. Not every Bioware game had a race against time. Mass Effect's is the premier example where if Shepard doesn't do something fast enough we lose.

KotOR: The Sith are already in control of the Star Forge. Where Mass Effect is about preventing Saren from unleashing the machine Gods (which means we lose), KotOR is about a counter-attack. At this point, it's simply an extended war, which the Republic is (slowly) losing.

Jade Empire: No race against time, especially if you don't care about Master Li. The only element to the race to consider is regarding the Dragon Amulet, and your character is in possession of that, so there's no immediate danger.

Dragon Age: Origins: The storyline of this game also occurs over a two year period, with most locations also being of main quest importance. 

Mass Effect 2: The entire premise is built on the understanding that Shepard can't do anything until TIM contacts him. And the dynamics of whom to recruit is entirely up to him. For all its flaws, ME2 actually has one of Bioware's better justifications for side quests.

Now the other element which you need to consider is that in Mass Effect is Bioware premier where 1 side quest = 1 planet. That's the problem we run into in terms of metagame justifications. This doesn't really exist in KotOR. Go ahead and examine every side quest. There aren't many which require you to travel across planets in order to complete them. Almost every single other quest can be completed while dealing with the main narrative. You see, KotOR integrated most of its side quests into the main story areas.

The side quests occurred "along side" the main quest. Mass Effect on the other hand presents us with "Go completely out of your way" quests, instead. To be fair, there are some of the KotOR variety, but they are the exception rather than the rule.  

Not only is the time limit on KotOR's main quest far less critical than Mass Effect's, but most side quests don't require that I send the protagonist days or weeks into the traverse to help random peasants. Most of that simply falls into my lap while going after the Star Forge.

Modifié par Il Divo, 31 janvier 2012 - 01:03 .

[tetrisblock4x1]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

And ME1's exploration achieves this...... how? If it's about gaining credits and levels, this sounds like yet another case of RPG elements making the role-playing worse, much worse.

ME2's exploration is marginally better, since planet scanning means that we have a reason for going to those planets. But it's a stupid reason, since Cerberus has other ships and those ships should be doing the mining.

No, you're accepting the game's narrative without question.  in ME1, there are all sorts of rumours swirling around the uncharted worlds, and Shepard could well think that any one of them is likely to be Saren's doing.  Similarly, he could think that the intelligence directing him to Noveria or Feros is suspect, or too neat, or looks like a trap, and go looking for other leads instead.

Only if you accept as true everything Udina and Anderson and Hackett tell you is true would you never have reason to visit those other worlds.

Huh? In the case of the N7 assignments, that's false -- or by go anywhere do you mean "land"?

To the extent it's true for the main missions ME2 is no different from ME1, or most other Bio games.

Why are you making a distinction between the main missions and the side missions?  That's a metagame divide that doesn't exist within the game's reality.

The stength of your imagination must be impressive. For the record, I absolutely love it when a game gives me vagues leads and intriguing plots to uncover. See the NCR/Bishop alliance against vault city for example. But it turns out that you're given good leads, by people who aren't suspicios at all, and they turn out to be reliable. So the possibilities don't matter, I can't just force myself to care about rumors if I know better and my only motive is grinding levels.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Il Divo wrote...

But I want that basis to be supported (in some capacity) by the information which the world gives me. I'm given nothing regarding Major Kyle's Biotic Commune with relation to Saren. So without something to react to, I don't see a reason to consider it relevant.

So don't.  But others might.

But none connected to Saren, which is my point with the VI on Earth's moon scenario.

I don't see any possible connection to the Luna mission, either.  But that the Luna mission exists, with the Alliance trying to use you to solve their problem when that's no longer really your job is an opportunity for meaningful roleplay.  If you refuse, how does that make you feel about the Alliance and its bureaucracy?  If you accept, why?  Do you have so much loyalty to Earth that you'll ignore your Spectre duties?

That there are things happening in the universe that aren't related to Saren is an important part of making the setting feel real.  If everything that's going on is related to your mission, isn't that contrived?

[Il Divo]

Terror_K wrote...

 So I don't honestly see how you can do proper sidequests* at all in ME3 given these circumstances.

* = "Proper sidequests" meaning quests that aren't related to the main story at all.

That is an issue which ME3 is running into. I've seen some solutions to it (give the side quests peripheral relevance to the main storyline), which I find acceptable, but I'm curious how BIoware hopes to handle it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

tetrisblock4x1 wrote...

The stength of your imagination must be impressive. For the record, I absolutely love it when a game gives me vagues leads and intriguing plots to uncover. See the NCR/Bishop alliance against vault city for example. But it turns out that you're given good leads, by people who aren't suspicios at all, and they turn out to be reliable. So the possibilities don't matter, I can't just force myself to care about rumors if I know better and my only motive is grinding levels.

ME did a lousy job of letting you express Shepard's personality generally, so I'm not too surprised that players didn't try to do it through quests.

My Shepard didn't trust Udina's motives, so wanted to withhold information from him after the Tali rescue mission.  But the paraphrase system failed and Shepard told Udina everything I wanted her to hide, breaking my character.  If other players gave up after such an event, I wouldn't blame them.

[Il Divo]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

So don't.  But others might.

Sure, but are either of us playing for others? Ultimately, I want the best possible experience for my money. Others can argue for their own best experience. For myself, that means an experience where I don't feel like I'm fighting the main story because I need to kill mercs.

That there are things happening in the universe that aren't related to Saren is an important part of making the setting feel real.  If everything that's going on is related to your mission, isn't that contrived?

Other Bioware games have achieved much the same, without requiring ME1's absurdity. The problem isn't side quests unrelated to the main story. The problem is unrelated side quests which demand it necessary that I travel days or weeks in the opposite direction of my objective in order to complete. That's the sin ME1 commits.

Modifié par Il Divo, 31 janvier 2012 - 01:13 .

[Wulfram]

"True" sidequests that have nothing at all to do with the plot only make sense if they don't take you too far out of your way - and to the extent that they do, it needs to be proportionate to the importance of the quests.

Shepard making a quick trip to somewhere else on the citadel makes sense - the Normandy can probably use the little bit of time to reprovision anyway. Shepard responding to a distress call while searching the Artemis Tau cluster for Liara is reasonable enough.

Shepard going to the Armstrong cluster to look into a Geth invasion makes loads of sense, because it's a big issue and there's no way to know it's not tied into Saren.

Shepard travelling halfway across the galaxy because of the request of a random civilian is difficult to justify.

Shepard going to a random cluster for the lulz/ to "explore" is just stupid. Except if you get the opportunity to do it post-game.

DA:O did pretty well at this. You could generally complete most of the quests without going ludicously out of the way. Though I could never fit fully completing Dagna's quest into the Warden's schedule sensibly, since there wasn't many good reasons to return to Orzammar.

Modifié par Wulfram, 31 janvier 2012 - 01:20 .

[Il Divo]

Wulfram wrote...

"True" sidequests that have nothing at all to do with the plot only make sense if they don't take you too far out of your way - and to the extent that they do, it needs to be proportionate to the importance of the quests.

Shepard making a quick trip to somewhere else on the citadel makes sense - the Normandy can probably use the little bit of time to reprovision anyway. Shepard responding to a distress call while searching the Artemis Tau cluster for Liara is reasonable enough.

Shepard going to the Armstrong cluster to look into a Geth invasion makes loads of sense, because it's a big issue and there's no way to know it's not tied into Saren.

Shepard travelling halfway across the galaxy because of the request of a random civilian is difficult to justify.

Shepard going to a random cluster for the lulz/ to "explore" is just stupid. Except if you get the opportunity to do it post-game.

DA:O did pretty well at this. You could generally complete most of the quests without going ludicously out of the way. Though I could never fit fully completing Dagna's quest into the Warden's schedule sensibly, since there wasn't many good reasons to return to Orzammar.

QFT. Much better put than I am capable of expressing.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Il Divo wrote...

Other Bioware games have achieved much the same, without requiring ME1's absurdity. The problem isn't side quests unrelated to the main story. The problem is unrelated side quests which demand it necessary that I travel days or weeks in the opposite direction of my objective in order to complete. That's the sin ME1 commits.

ME's design is by no means the ideal one, but it is the best BioWare game since the original BG at offering a variety of quests that have nothing at all to do with the main quest.

I'm just happy to see sidequest content I can access as I see fit, rather than waiting for the plot to tell me it's okay.

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I'm not saying you should invent justification for visiting the uncharted worlds.  I'm saying that there exist possible designs of Shepard's personality which would lead to a desire to visit those worlds based on the other information provided by the game.

All of those worlds? You're going to have to show me your work on this one. I can see visiting some of them, but why, for instance, would Shepard ever order the Normany into Styx Theta? Would any rational Shepard believe that Helena Blake or Nassana Dantius are worth working for in the middle of this crisis; if so, why?

Or is this just a general belief that any ME1 action can be rationalized somehow?

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I'm just happy to see sidequest content I can access as I see fit, rather than waiting for the plot to tell me it's okay.

Is this about you, or your Shepard? I know you don't want your earlier argument to sound like a pretext, but it sounds like you simply want a game to work this way.

Modifié par AlanC9, 31 janvier 2012 - 06:07 .

[Phoenix_Fyre]

I think the combat is smoother.

Running an ME1 Infiltrator... loooove the SR, hate the shaky zoom until you level it up.

[Terror_K]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I don't see any possible connection to the Luna mission, either.  But that the Luna mission exists, with the Alliance trying to use you to solve their problem when that's no longer really your job is an opportunity for meaningful roleplay.  If you refuse, how does that make you feel about the Alliance and its bureaucracy?  If you accept, why?  Do you have so much loyalty to Earth that you'll ignore your Spectre duties?

That there are things happening in the universe that aren't related to Saren is an important part of making the setting feel real.  If everything that's going on is related to your mission, isn't that contrived?

And, to be honest, Mass Effect has already begun to run far too much into "Reapers did it territory" lately for my tastes. It's like every pivotal piece of history in the Mass Effect universe has to somehow tie into The Reapers lately. Things can't just happen in the ME universe it seems... there's always a Reaper artifact or some indoctrinated cultists or something Reaper-related that has to link into things somehow. It's getting a bit tiresome.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I'm not saying you should invent justification for visiting the uncharted worlds.  I'm saying that there exist possible designs of Shepard's personality which would lead to a desire to visit those worlds based on the other information provided by the game.

All of those worlds? You're going to have to show me your work on this one. I can see visiting some of them, but why, for instance, would Shepard ever order the Normany into Styx Theta? Would any rational Shepard believe that Helena Blake or Nassana Dantius are worth working for in the middle of this crisis; if so, why?

Or is this just a general belief that any ME1 action can be rationalized somehow?

First of all, I never want the player to have to rationalise anything.  Rationalisation is the enemy of reason; it's simply an attempt to justify notions retroactively.

The point isn't that Shepard could conceivably want to help Helena Blake, but that Helena Blake could conceivably ask Shepard for help.  Given that she would, then the setting would be broken if Shepard could not say yes (recall my complaints that you cannot take the High Road to Neverwinter in NWN2, despite being told several times that it exists).

Shepard's all on his own going after Saren.  He could help pretty much anyone in an attempt to acquire allies.

You're also ignoring the possibility that Shepard might not be very good at assessing his priorities outside of a hierarchical command structure.  He's a military guy.  He follows orders.  Suddenly, as a Spectre, he doesn't have to.

I cannot think of any reason to visit Styx Theta, but I also cannot think of any reason why Styx Theta doesn't even seem to exist until after Shepard has visited Noveria.  Having systems appear out of nowhere without some lore-related justification runs contrary to why I like the uncharted worlds in the first place.

[Sylvius the Mad]

AlanC9 wrote...

Is this about you, or your Shepard? I know you don't want your earlier argument to sound like a pretext, but it sounds like you simply want a game to work this way.

Shepard cannot be irritated by the absence of things of which he's unaware.  It's obviously about me.

I want it to work this way because working this way offers a better roleplaying environment.  Having gates on the game content without some in-game justification damgages the setting.

It makes sense, for example, that you cannot enter Baldur's Gate before Chapter 5, but it makes no sense that you cannot enter Cloakwood before Chapter 3.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 31 janvier 2012 - 07:11 .

[Jozape]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I want that "25%" feedback system regardless of the interface.  In fact, I'll go so far as to say ME1's combat interface, with aiming-while-paused plus the cone of death is the best shooter-interface RPG combat I have ever seen.  There simply is no shooter-interface RPG that does combat better than Mass Effect does it.

You preferred it to Fallout's much less tedious V.A.T.S. system? Well I guess I can see that. NPCs can shoot  as much as they want while moving around, but you can't(if you use V.A.T.S.). That always bothered me.

[tetrisblock4x1]

Phoenix_Fyre wrote...

I think the combat is smoother.

Running an ME1 Infiltrator... loooove the SR, hate the shaky zoom until you level it up.

The shaky zoom is a lot less shaky if you apply a bit of manual finesse to it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Jozape wrote...

You preferred it to Fallout's much less tedious V.A.T.S. system? Well I guess I can see that. NPCs can shoot  as much as they want while moving around, but you can't(if you use V.A.T.S.). That always bothered me.

VATS was really good, but I didn't love that I had to run around and hide while waiting for the Action Points to regenerate.  Also, it was less like a shooter interface.  ME's was seamlessly embedded into the game - FO3's was an extra layer of complexity.

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
The point isn't that Shepard could conceivably want to help Helena Blake, but that Helena Blake could conceivably ask Shepard for help.  Given that she would, then the setting would be broken if Shepard could not say yes (recall my complaints that you cannot take the High Road to Neverwinter in NWN2, despite being told several times that it exists).

Helena Blake could exist in the ME universe and if she existed she could ask Shepard for help, sure. Does that make her worth doing? In NWN2, a High Road map with infinitely respawing enemies that would destroy the party eventually might have been worth doing, but large NWN2 maps are resource hogs and tedious. Although I suppose if you make it at all it might as well be a viable, though duller, alternative route. I suppose skipping the Garius/Shadow Priest dialog wouldn't matter too much 

Shepard's all on his own going after Saren.  He could help pretty much anyone in an attempt to acquire allies.

Unpack this a little, please. What exactly would any possible Shepard hope to gain from doing these sidequests? In the Helena Blake case, the answer is obvious -- credits. This works in ME, but only because the Alliance, the Council, and Cerberus are too stupid to give Shepard an expense account. We get this content only by highlighting one of the bad aspects of the design.

You're also ignoring the possibility that Shepard might not be very good at assessing his priorities outside of a hierarchical command structure.  He's a military guy.  He follows orders.  Suddenly, as a Spectre, he doesn't have to.

I don't mind giving Shepard stupid choices to make. What I do mind is that Bio won't actually have consequences for the stupidity. If I can't have both, I don't want either. Put a real clock in ME1 and I'm fine with sidequests conceptually, though we would still have a resource allocation issue.

So I guess we're both looking for a role-playing environment, but you're looking for choices and I'm looking for consequences.

I cannot think of any reason to visit Styx Theta, but I also cannot think of any reason why Styx Theta doesn't even seem to exist until after Shepard has visited Noveria.  Having systems appear out of nowhere without some lore-related justification runs contrary to why I like the uncharted worlds in the first place.

Two separate issues. If Styx Theta had been in the game from the start, there still would have been no rational reason to go there.

Modifié par AlanC9, 31 janvier 2012 - 06:08 .