31 réponses à ce sujet

[Suspire]

Well not first time actually, I played the beginning of the OC when the game came out -though I can't remember much of it, and stopped at some cave.

I want to try it again now, and my main question is if I should play it vanilla or use some mods for fixes (actually I really am gonna try the romance pack mod no question, but I'm still considering Kaedrin's for the fixes - don't really want the extra classes but I read he might have a workaround for SR bug -and/or Tony K's, and maybe a UI mod).

I don't really expect to play it more than once, and I wanna go warlock (I liked what I saw of it, though I play on normal/easy), so should I experience the buggy warlock and UI and all the original buggyness, or should I use Kaedrin's PrC Pack and/or Tony K's AI, etc? The buggy warlock thing makes me wonder, because while there are disadvantages, there are also some advantages it seems, like overcoming SR with Vitriolic Blast etc? Not sure

I'm pretty scared of running into weirder bugs from installing mods, breaking the game, etc, so I tend to install as little mods as possible, and I'm not even sure if they're compatible with the Romance Pack.
Any help is appreciated :>

Modifié par Suspire, 28 janvier 2012 - 05:00 .

[The Fred]

The game is not actually that buggy any more. The SR one is significant for Warlocks unfortunately, which does leave you with Vitriolic Blasts - though this only has to do with the fact that Vitriolic always ignores SR, which is correct behaviour.

People will likely recommend both Kaedrin's and TonyK's; the thing with Kaedrin's is that even if you don't want all that extra class stuff and so on, I don't think you can actually get some of his fixes without using the whole pack. As a Warlock, you may also want to check out the Warlock Buddy.

[Arkalezth]

I keep reading about warlock's bugginess, and other than the SR (which can be easily solved taking Vitriolic), I haven't seen all those bugs people talk about. And I've played many warlocks.

I definitely recommend Tony K's. Kaedrin's... it depends, it fixes some things and adds some new invocations to warlocks if you were interested, but it also changes how some feats work, etc. It's your decission, just know that the unmoded game is perfectly playable if patched.

[kevL]

if you're going to leave your Companions use the AI (nonPuppet), TonyK's is esp. valuable

Kaedrin's Pack uses a full version of rpgplayer1's spell fixes, with extra tweaks (some good, some annoying but mostly good)


I'd bet $5 neither interferes with any Romance mods.

--
Thoughts on modifications for NwN2: they're there because they do fix things. Those that don't, soon get called on it, if they don't. As you point out, conflicts is really the major concern here.

A long time ago Reeron developed a fix for the SR bug, and while I don't believe it's included in Kaedrin's (he's focused on other things) i Did include it in the Pia of my sig below - but it fixes only the SR bug on creature hides (by replacing it with an innate SR on Spawn, which is not bugged) - Warlocks have further SR issues not addressed. ( just judging by your preferred difficulty level, you'd want to flatten everything to 0 and leave only DIFF_MOD at "1" )


but like Ark says, the game is 'perfectly playable if patched' to v1.23



EDIT, Kaedrin's pack fixes the SR bug on character items ...... not sure if or how much he worked the Warlocks

Modifié par kevL, 28 janvier 2012 - 02:01 .

[nicethugbert]

The action in this game is sluggish and the one round attacks are the worst. Warlock being a caster makes it a boring class to watch because of it's one attack per round rate. Forget melee warlocks. They are entirely gimped, unless you use Eldritch Glaive from Kaedrin's. If you want action in this game then you'll have to find it in party management. And you'll need to be a micromanaging pause monkey because the AI is worthless.

And, that is where the warlock shines. It's such a simple class, and a ranged class, that it's the most low maintenance class in NWN2. Set up the AI to make ranged attackers keep distance.

At the start of the round PAUSE. Pick a target and an invocation and fill the queue with it. Then move on to managing the rest of your party. Cycle through your party like this.

The AI does not do an entirely disasterous job of retargeting for the warlock and picking an invocation.

Warlocks are not improved by multi-classing in this game. A pure warlock does great: http://nwn2db.com/bu...id=71&version=1

Kaedrin's is a must have for all the fixes for the entire party. Plus, Eldritch Glaive doubles warlock damage if you're willing to micromanage it and get your warlock into melee range.

Warlock item needs are simple and easy to satisfy. Focusing on charisma is the best way to go for a Warlock so they are great party leaders in dialog.

[AlanC9]

I'm replaying the OC right now with a warlock, and I wouldn't say you really need to do that much micromanagement in the OC. Except for a few of the multiple rogue encounters the OC's pretty easy. The main thing I've had to do is pick sane targets for the melee fighters.

But nicethugbert's pretty much right that the warlock doesn't need much babysitting. OTOH, I've always found it a little weird to play the other characters more than my own.

Hey, do you folks consider using Combat Expertise on NWN2 warlocks to be an exploit? IIRC that wasn't allowed in PnP, but it's been a while since I played PnP.

Modifié par AlanC9, 28 janvier 2012 - 05:37 .

[Suspire]

Firstly, thanks so much for the help, you all have great points

The funny thing is, everyone I know at the time was also starting a warlock play and thinking it was so cool. Maybe I had no idea it'd get boring over time, but I'm much more interested in roleplay.

I read a bunch of threads on warlocks and builds, not sure how much that helped or confused me. Good to know warlock isn't that bugged. I just got the impression that the bugs gimped warlocks enough to be annoying for a lot of people, so that the fixes were SO much better.

Is a bit of a mix of Dex and Cha warlock doable btw? I wanted to explore that a bit, I just don't want to get to a point I'll realize my warlock is really weak, but playing on normal/easy do I really need a pure blaster/controller? I loaded up my old character once last night and I didn't even have to take part on a fight, Khelgar, Bishop and Neeshka easily killed stuff for me.

Usually I prefer to focus on my character and let my party do its thing, unless when I need to interfere on harder battles, the problem here would be getting bored, correct? Tony K's AI can help me play like this, though as I understand it would balance itself by making enemies less stupid.

Warlock Buddy hasn't been updated, and I'm playing with SoZ 1.23 so I think it's not an option (at least from reading the comments on it)
For Kaedrin's I figured I could ignore the extra classes, but yeah it's hard to find all the up to date info on his fixes, I'm afraid I'd just get things mixed up. On the NWN2 Vault, it doesn't even mention he has that SR workaround, I only found it through google. If the spell-fixing is a must for the party, I'd also consider Reeron's Spell Fixes and Improvements or just player1's Spell Fixes compilations (seems much smaller), right? But does the game get frustrating without them, later on? Is it that big of a change, or should I not even be worrying about it in normal/easy?

Seems a lot simpler for me to go almost-vanilla, and trying more mods on MotB playthroughs.
Seeing as I actually enjoyed NWN1's OC and most of the time have more fun exploring builds on easy than playing very effective builds on hard.

Consider it a curiosity for me: if you had the opportunity to play it for the first time again, what would you want to know, the vanilla game or the modded game?

[Arkalezth]

Boring is relative, I like them. Obviously they don't have as many options as a wizard does, but they're not just a one-trick pony. Warriors can also be considered boring, but many people play them. Just go with what you like.

Warlocks can be built in many ways, I usually spread my stats and go with decent DEX (around 14), and increase CHA at level up. You don't need anything for the OC, it's easy enough to be completed by any character.

Tony K's helps with your party AI, yes, but don't expect too much even with it. It can also make enemies (a bit) more intelligent if you wanted to do so, but it can be configured as desired.

This is Kaedrin's site with all the changes: http://nwn2customcontent.wikidot.com/

Warlock Buddy can be downloaded from here (yes, I've used in 1.23 plenty of times): http://nwvault.ign.c...l.Detail&id=249

You don't need any spell fix. You can use one if you want (some are good), but they're not necessary at all. The game works well. There may be a little bug here and there as in every game, but nothing really important, you'll probably never notice any in your playthrough.

And to your last question, I'd definitely use Tony K's. I'd generally recommend Kaedrin's too unless you don't want any of his changes.

[nicethugbert]

Don't put more than 16 points in DEX. With items, you'll hit the armor dex limit fast. You want Mithril Chain Shirt and Mithril Heavy Shield. Since, invocations and blasts are touch attacks or saves, you don't need to keep increasing DEX.

Increase CHA instead. It'll keep your invocation DC's up.

I don't think that in PnP you can use combat expertise and cast spells/blasts/invocation. You're supposed to be concentrating on defense when using CE. But, can invocation/blasts be interupted like spells? A warlock can fly, shapechange, and do all sorts of stuff through invocations. I don't think they have to concentrate so much. They just will it to happen.

As for boring, it depends what you play NWN2 for.  I just play it for the story.  The mechanics are weak for action.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 29 janvier 2012 - 07:45 .

[Suspire]

Ahh thanks for the updated Warlock Buddy link, I'll check that out.
I had seen Kaedrin's site to look for warlock fixes... but like I said the way I found he had a SR workaround was through google, maybe I suck at searching his site and my lack of D&D knowledge gets in the way, but it's so much stuff I think I'll pass.

One Dex based build I saw was this: http://nwn2db.com/bu...86294&version=1
But yeah like I said I'm not very D&D savvy :/

Thanks again. I'm thinking I'll go with Tony K's and Warlock Buddy. Maaaaaybe Kaedrin's XD (can't decide)

Btw, one of the threads I had seen in my warlock info search: http://social.biowar...2/index/6347552 heheh (that's what I mean with buggy warlock mostly)

Modifié par Suspire, 29 janvier 2012 - 04:05 .

[Arkalezth]

Crithead's guides are good, but they're done with epic levels in mind, if you're not going to play past level 20, CHA focus is better, if only for things like the bonus to saves (at those levels, DEX won't be high enough to make armor obsolete).

I recommend reading the notes on his guides (and the comments, I wrote a wall of text in that one), and then work based on that. Just take a lot of warlock levels and some good invocations, and you'll be ready to go.

[nicethugbert]

Warlock buddy is old. It has not kept up with NWN2. Ladydesires' class pack was never finished.

I suggest going with Kaedrin's. It's current and full of bug fixes.

One of the warlocks best invocation is vitriolic blast. It's a DC based attack so it depends on cha, not dex. Dex warlocks are gimpped. Don't bother with them.

Hideous blow applies to one and only one attack. Eldritch Glaive applies to upto 5 attacks as you choose in the Kaedrin's options file. Plus EG is a melee touch attack therefore is a lot easier to hit than a weapon attack because it by passes armor and natural armor and their bonuses.  Hideous blow is a weapon attck so it has to get past armor, natural armor, and their bonuses.  95% of the enemies in this game use armor and natural armor.

But, if you want to play a gimp, go right ahead.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 29 janvier 2012 - 12:52 .

[Arkalezth]

Warlock Buddy works with 1.23 perfectly, I've used it many times. And you don't need to install Ladydesire's pack, I've never used it, but I always use her version of the WB.

Vitriolic has no save, maybe you're thinking of Noxious (but Vitriolic is the way to go if you're worried about SR). DEX warlocks are not gimped, actually, warlocks can be built based on pretty much any stat (but those are advanced and specific builds so I'll leave that out). I personally go CHA based normally, but that doesn't mean that anything else leaves you with a gimp.

For Eldritch Glaive, it's actually better to go STR based, to make those melee touch attacks hit.

Crithead is one of the community's warlock "experts", you can trust pretty much whatever he says about warlocks. He said he'd do more advanced guides at some moment, but he hasn't published them yet.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 29 janvier 2012 - 02:43 .

[nicethugbert]

Warlock buddy is just a convinience. It's #1 draw supposedly is Hideous Blow. But, Hideous Blow gives one attack. Eldritch Glaive scales with BAB so you get your full attack schedual, Therefore Eldritch Glaive is better than Hideous Blow. If I'm going to take the risk of running up to somebody, getting in their weapon's reach, then it is better to make up for that risk with an advantage such as more attacks. Other wise, it is better to stay out of reach and do the same damage or use Eldritch Chain to do more damage spread out to multiple opponents plus control effects. You can blind or stun them so they can rarely hit you.

Dex and Str warlocks are gimped because their DCs are low and taking Dex or Str past 16 confers no benefit better than higher DCs. You don't need to pump Dex or Str on a warlock because all their attacks are touch attacks or saves. Your BAB will out pace their DEX bonus even if they are a dex build and monster dex builds are rare because they do horrible damage without sneak attack. Your BAB plus your bonuses will be far higher than their touch ACs 95% of the time.

It is better to drop str all together and just have 16 Dex, and leave it there. 16 Dex is enough to give you the edge in ranged touch attacks and AC early on, and going forward. Your BAB, feats, and gear will take you the rest of the way. By the time you get a second attack to make Eldritch Glaive begin to get useful, your BAB plus gear plus feats will be more than enough to do melee touch attacks so having 16 str instead of 16 dex will not be worth losing 3 AC points. Neither HB or EG use the str damage bonus. But, dex does double duty as AC and ranged touch AB.

Pumping Cha also helps your dialog skills which is great for a party leader.

[Arkalezth]

Of course Warlock Buddy is just a convenience, that's why I use it. And not because of Hideous Blow precisely.

Warlocks don't need high DC, you can make an effective warlock with 8 CHA. I've already said that I go CHA based usually, because that's how I like to play, but it's not the only option.

I don't want to engage myself in a long discussion, but don't go making statements like "DEX warlocks are gimps", because that's not true.

To the OP, again, don't worry too much about it, as long as you have lots of warlock levels and don't choose crappy invocations (that's how you can end with a gimp), you'll be fine.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 29 janvier 2012 - 02:57 .

[nicethugbert]

All a Dex warlock can do is blast. A Cha warlock can blast while adding blind, stun, slow, etc. to his blasts. Cha warlocks do what dex warlocks do plus more. Therefore Cha warlocks are better than dex warlocks. Therefore Dex warlocks are gimped.

Try a party with more than one cha warlock, all of them using eldritch chain with a different invocation.  Then try it with dex warlocks.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 29 janvier 2012 - 03:02 .

[Arkalezth]

Sure, if you use those DC blasts.

Crithead also made a guide for that type, btw: http://nwn2db.com/bu...86293&version=1

This is (part of) what I wrote in Crithead's blaster guide:

As mentioned, I use to play pre-epic. In my experience, if you're not going to play past level 20, CHA based warlocks are generally better regardless of the type, and in any case I recommend against dumping it. It provides you much better saves, will make your DCs better (even  if only for tentacles), and it's not modified when using WOC, which is much better before epic.

That doesn't mean that other types aren't viable, though, and some things can be different in epic.

Example of good, but "exotic" warlocks. Just to prove that different things can be done:

http://nwn2db.com/bu...77977&version=1

http://nwn2db.com/bu...77981&version=1

Modifié par Arkalezth, 29 janvier 2012 - 03:36 .

[AlanC9]

I'm not even sure you need Dex 16 if you don't mind taking Leaps and Bounds for one of your least invocations.

[The Fred]

nicethugbert wrote...
The AI does not do an entirely disasterous job of retargeting for the warlock and picking an invocation.

I have not tried it since the partial TonyK's additions of SoZ, but in the OC it sucked. For such a simple class, you'd think it would know to add an essence rather than using raw blasts, at least when that essence doesn't change the damage type.

Suspire wrote...
The funny thing is, everyone I know at the time was also starting a warlock play and thinking it was so cool. Maybe I had no idea it'd get boring over time, but I'm much more interested in roleplay.

I played a Warlock through the OC (well, I never quite finished I don't think). I was fun, but it did get boring. It was more that you got so few new things each level to play with. It made levelling a bit dull. But sure, go for it. Just bear in mind that by the end of the OC, spamming Flee the Scene and Vitriolic Cone may get a tad repetative.

RE Dex vs Cha: When using ranged touch attacks, Dex is very useful. Ranged touches, involved in most blasts, are quite easy to hit with, but at low levels you will want at least a bit of Dex. This is especially true vs other high-Dex, lightly armoured foes. Dex is always good to have too since it boosts your AC. However, Cha is far better when using disabling essences. I should also point out that if you use something like Eldritch Cone, it doesn't need a touch attack, making Dex a bit useless. It takes a while to get to it, though.

[Arkalezth]

I'm not debating which one is better, even though I gave my opinion several times already (like the quote in my previous post). But neither is a gimp, that's my point.

Eldritch Cone is pretty crappy, though, Eldritch Chain is the best shape (and maybe Doom at high levels, and the ocassional Spear). And don't forget things like tentacles and Word of Change (which work pretty well together).

If the OP is new to warlocks, she (?) may be lost at this point. I'm not arguing that X is better than Y, I simply said that, if you pick the right invocations with any warlock, you have to work hard to end with a gimp.

[nicethugbert]

[quote]The Fred wrote...

[quote]nicethugbert wrote...
The AI does not do an entirely disasterous job of retargeting for the warlock and picking an invocation.[/quote]I have not tried it since the partial TonyK's additions of SoZ, but in the OC it sucked. For such a simple class, you'd think it would know to add an essence rather than using raw blasts, at least when that essence doesn't change the damage type.
[/quote][/quote]

Hmm, maybe my rabid pause monkey micromanagment style has clouded my perception. But, I do remember being pleasantly surprised by the warlock AI in SoZ. I think it reverted to the last invocation used but not the last shape used. Which wasn't as bad as it could be because the enemy party tends to have shrunk considerably by the time the AI has to take over if you fill your action queue right.

[quote]Arkalezth wrote...

Sure, if you use those DC blasts.

[/quote]

But, why wouldn't you use those DC invocations? They're awesome. Plus, the OC bosses have swarms of critters to shield themselves behind. A warlock can fix that with the right invocations and high charisma.

==========================

Suspire wants to know what is better for a first time OC Warlock play. I say it's this. All he has to do is use the right invocation for the right target and keep his action queue full. Use main character for dialogs and use his party for all the rest.

Use \\ and TAB to select targets. Use T key or hot bar to perform an attack. Put your invocations on your hot bar. This makes filling your action queue a lot easier and faster. I pick a different target for each attack in my action queue when using a warlock. If the target dies, then the game empties your action queue and tries to figure out what to do. Picking a different target per invocation attack prevents this. Don't let the game make too many decisions for you.

Don't waste skill points in crafting armor and weapons. Let your party handle that. Aim for Mithril Chain Shirt and Mithril Heavy Shield for your warlock. You will not find those. You'll have to make them.

Don't waste resources enchanting lower level junk. Save enchanting resources for top end items. You can make good money crafting weapons and armors once you have your castle set up. Then you use that money for enchanting ingredients or nice items. Then, you can go into heavy production at the castle. Until then you will not be able to make much so make sure that what you do make are keepers.

Until you can go into heavy production enchanting gear, you'll be finding lots of items. Some you'll sell. Some you'll keep. You'll have lots of casters to buff the party. The items spare you the hassles of buffing and leave more room for healing and offensive spells. That will come in handy in the end.

You'll want +5 armor, shields, and natural armor amulets, +8 bracers, +8 ability items, simple stuff. The most complicated thing you'll want is +5 holy axiomatic weapons(main story line enemies are chaotic evil).

You will not be able to afford a complete line of +8 gear for everybody.

A warlock can inbue items starting at level 12. But, he still needs to take the appropriate enchanting feats.

You need need 8 caster levels to enchant +8 ability items; 15 caster levels to make +5 armor, weapons, and Amulets of Natural Armor; and 16 caster levels for +8 bracers. So, if you give Elanee the Craft Wondrous Item feat she will be able to make all your +8 ability items starting early as you accumulate the resources and at 15th level she'll make +5 Natural Amulets plus the rest of the +8 ability items.

Sand cannot cast mage armor so he cannot enchant +5 armor. Zhjeave and Qara can, and so can a warlock. The only thing you'd want Qara to make for you are +5 weapons, armor, and shields. But, not until 15th level when a warlock can do it to.

You need 7 caster levels to make holy or axiomatic weapons. Wizards and Sorcerors cannot make those weapons. Druids can make holy weapons but not axiomatic weapons. Clerics and Warlocks can make holy and axiomatic weapons. Zhjeave can make them starting at level 7. A warlock can make them starting at level 12. You should be able to find a diamond by level 7 to get started on Kelgar's weapon. But there are good weapons to be found along the way.

Sand cannot craft Amulets of Natural Armor. Elanee and Bishop are the only companions that can craft Amulets of Natural Armor. But, so can a warlock PC.

So, you might want to give Elanee Craft Wonderous Items feat and Zhjeave Craft Magic Arms and Armor. then you can have the thrill of crafting a few good items at their earliest.

NWN2 Crafting

If you do use Kaedrin's class pack, give Elanee and Zhjeave the Intuitive Strike feat. It also has a lot of new spells for them and the rest of the companions.

P.S. There is a modification on the vault that lets you increase your party size. NEAT!

Modifié par nicethugbert, 29 janvier 2012 - 10:09 .

[Arkalezth]

The build you linked is ok for a OC run, yeah.

nicethugbert wrote...

But, why wouldn't you use those DC invocations? They're awesome. Plus, the OC bosses have swarms of critters to shield themselves behind. A warlock can fix that with the right invocations and high charisma.

Because warlocks have a limited number of invocations, and my usual selection (which includes buffs) doesn't leave me much room for different blast types. I use to focus on a single blast type, and if there are SR enemies, that's Vitriolic (once I reach level 11, I may use some DC one previously, and drop it at some point), which has no DC. Tentacles have DC and are a must IMO, but they can do damage with a bad DC anyway.

My invocation selection depends a bit on where I'm playing and the current level, but I usually end up with a combination of the ones listed in the notes here (you'll get two more picks with more warlock levels): http://nwn2db.com/bu...80963&version=1

[nicethugbert]

OK for the OC? It doesn't get much better than that. I would put some points in bluff so he can remain chaotic. Yes, he could take a cleric level for Divine Shield. He'll do just fine without it. He could take a rogue level for skills. But that is a waste in the OC for a warlock. He can use the party so it is not at all necessary to make a solo warlock.

Warlocks can have both their best buffs and control invocations. The control invocations are NEAT! they are much better than the buffs which can be had from items or party members. So why throw away the best thing about warlocks, i.e. their control invocations, for things you can get else where?

Suspire, the first invocation you should get is Frightful Blast.  Swap it out once enemy HD gets past 6.  Eldritch Spear is good fo fighting a single boss.  Otherwise, Eldritch Chain or Eldritch Doom are the best shapes.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 31 janvier 2012 - 01:04 .

[Arkalezth]

I didn't think that "ok" was offensive. Yes, it's a good warlock for the OC, but you're missing some of the best invocations in your list (though some may lose power at late levels).

You can't always get those things elsewhere, it depends on environment. See the Unseen is useless in the OC, but not in other places. More saves are always good, as are higher skills. Flee the Scene grants you unlimited Haste for the entire party at level 6... warlock buffs are good too, what's best depends. Playstyle also counts, you seem to like to incapacitate enemies, I (among other things) also like to throw tentacles around and walk among them in horned devil form, and watch enemies drop like flies. Also, keep in mind that some of those NEAT! control invocations won't work against certain enemies with a strong presence in the OC.

For the OC, I agree about Frightful Blast at the beginning. Draining is also good once Frightful loses its usefulness (or against undead). I'd also pick Flee the Scene, Eldritch Chain, Chilling Tentacles, Devour Magic, Vitriolic Blast and Word of Change. But those are my picks 99% of the time, regardless of where I'm playing.

Modifié par Arkalezth, 31 janvier 2012 - 01:54 .

[nicethugbert]

For the OC, I would swap out see the unseen for beguiling influence.

Missing some of the best invocations? Chilling Tentacles has the AB of a kobold. Word of Changing doesn't let you cast invocations or blasts, doesn't let you use magic items, and what it does give you is not worth what you lose out.

If you use Kaedrin's, then Chilling Tentales has an AB that scales with warlock level. But, if I remember correctly, it does not let you stack chilling tentacles.

If you use Kaedrin's, then you can use Gutteral Invocation to blast and invock under Word of Changing, plus you can use some magic items with it. But, even then, it's not better than normal.

And, yeah, being able to control AND damage on every round without end is pretty damn good fun. Other casters can only do one at a time and they are limited by their spell slots.