As time goes on I've realized more and more just how much is missing from Mass Effect. Let me start off by saying that what I love about Mass Effect isn't so much the story or the characters but rather the universe itself. I love the lore for the races and factions, the history between them and their politics all fascinate me. It is very intelligently written and it's what allows me to discuss Mass Effect so passionately.
However I feel that the games themselves have largely ignored this writing. The plot lines and conflicts we get are mostly shallow with good guys and bad guys. In real life there are no good guys and bad guys, not objectively anyway. Not when it comes to the struggles between nations and cultures.
The Reapers get in the way I think.
Not to say that some aspects of them aren't interesting like technological development on very long time scales or the concept of having to save an entire galaxy and the choices that entails. However they kind of take over the plot and force everything else out. I just don't think they were necessary.
Why are there no quarian thieves? The quarians face a lot of prejudice and have to struggle to get by, but most of you should know where this prejudice comes from: it comes from the quarians themselves. You see, they aren't always innocent victims. It is the policy of the Migrant Fleet to basically extort resouces from entire star systems. The mere threat that the Migrant Fleet will enter, clog up their relays and airspace with ships (for weeks or months), strip mine all available resources, and put local laborers out of work prompts leaders to just give the quarians what they want. It is called a "donation" but it is really tribute. It's a wonder that the Ilium is the only world we know of so far that has forbid the Migrant Fleet from being anywhere near it. Though I'm left to wonder how they enforce that (probably just through bribes to the Flotilla, I imagine). Oh, and they also release their criminals into galactic society for other species to deal with.
It would be nice to meet more of the people that the quarians coerce and inconvenience. Or at the very least a story centered around the Migrant Fleet's "occupation" of a star system would be interesting.
The sad thing is that after ME3 there will likely be no more Migrant Fleet and so all of this conflict will just vanish.
Individual quarians on their pilgrimage also learn to steal and cheat to survive. This can be understandable, but that doesn't make it right. What if it was a quarian who stole YOUR wallet or YOUR ship? What if that quarian broke into YOUR store and stole YOUR merchandise leaving YOU to pick up the tab? People hate thieves for a reason. The volus accusing Lia'Vael of stealing was an unlikable jerk (and he was wrong), but what if he hadn't been? It might have been more interesting if in our investigation we learned that Lia'Vael was actually guilty, but desperate. Maybe she'd plead with us to cover for her out of fear of what might happen to her if she lost what little she has. Maybe Tali would plead for you to help her as well, even though she is guilty. After all, it wouldn't be the only time Tali does just that. Would it be right to let the racist volus be cheated out of his money and personal belongings to help a desperate woman? When the volus accuses all quarians of being thieves Tali doesn't even deny it, she just tries to justify it.
Remember also the quarian on Ilium who got herself into serious financial debt. It was fortunate for whomever loaned her all that money that Ilium offered a means for her to pay it back, or for someone to pay it back on her behalf. Remember folks: finanicial white-collar crimes can be as devestating as more conventional ones. It was financial dealings (some of which were criminal or borderline criminal) that gave us the recession which we are still feeling today.
Are there quarian pirates? Considering how badly the Migrant Fleet needs ships one wonders how far they are willing to go to acquire them. While outright piracy would be a bad idea because it would bring the ire of the other races upon them, it could still be viable if kept secret. What if a quarian returned from pilgrimage with a ship? Would the leadership really pry him about where he got it or would they just accept the blessing?
Consider the film Aliens. At the start Ripley's shuttle is drifting through space and is found by a salvage team. They intend to sell it but then find Ripley alive and are forced to surrender the ship to the proper owners. However what if it was quarians instead and they found a ship with a solitary occupant in stasis? Is it not possible that they might let that occupant die, that they would murder the person? It seems heartless but remember how badly the quarians need that ship. Even a small shuttle could support a quarian family, or two. One life for five or six lives, or a dozen.
When it concerns the geth why is the debate always so one-sided? The quarians are always portrayed in a negative light. Words like genocide are thrown around, but it refers to the quarians killing the geth. This ignores the fact that it was billions of quarians, almost the entire species, and not the geth who were slaughtered.
Why is this topic always so one-sided? Why don't we have the option to say we don't think the quarians did anything wrong? Why aren't we able to ask Legion why the geth killed every last quarian man, woman, and child they could find? There might very well be a reasonable explanation, IE: "We did not understand what we were doing. We were less aware then."
It is said that the organic races treat synthetics like the geth with fear and hatred, but where is the rebuttal that the geth have never attempted to be friendly? The Council at least seemed to side against the quarians and Revelation mentioned that peaceful envoys had been sent to the geth... only to be killed.
Even ME3 continues the one-sided debate, taking it to new heights, though I won't spoil that for you here.
Why are batarians always badguys? At best we meet batarians who are polite to us, but these batarians are generally unnamed and have bit roles. Where are the batarian characters who are sympathetic? We know the batarians have an oppressive and racist government, but even the codex points out that it surely does not represent the views of all its 'citizens'. So how come we've never met any batarian refugees? You know, people who escaped from batarian space because they wanted freedom and/or feared for their lives? As hostile as the batarian government is to aliens I can guarantee you it is even more hostile to noncompliant batarians.
Really the batarians are one big missed opportunity. They had a lot of build-up in ME1, and some more in ME2, but it never seems to go anywhere. We know they'll probably have a bit-part in ME3 at best. I say we should have had the batarians as the main antagonists in ME2 instead of the Collectors.
Think about it. The Reapers' agents approach the Hegemony and promise them power and influence and the destruction of their rivals. In return batarian slavers organize in unprecedented numbers and armed with advanced Reaper technology they start abducting human colonies.
/fanfiction
I think they'd be better antagonists because they have personality and actual motivations. The Collectors were just drones. True there was some depth with the whole "consumed by technology angle" but that amounted to one conversation with Mordin. The batarians have a long history of grievances and could actually rationalize helping the Reapers. Fighting them might have also given us the chance to choose which direction their race would head in for the sequel, transforming the whole Terminus Systems and laying the ground work for ME3.
/fanfiction
Moving on...
Let's Confront (turian) Imperialism
It would be nice to meet or hear more about the species that the turians have conquered. Wait, I'm sorry, accepted as "clients". We know the volus are one, but they seem to be a special case. I want to meet a race that fought an actual war with the turians only to be conquered. Humans nearly had this fate.
They have an interesting culture as well. The turian government doesn't care what you do as long as it doesn't affect your job. So I'd like to meet a turian who does recreational drugs and encourages Shepard to do so as well, or one of his squad. For the turian it is acceptable and even natural but human governments aren't like this and it would be interesting to see Shepard's reaction. It'd be a fun after-school PSA I guess. Of-course this also might raise some interesting questions for the audience. Such controversy might not be what Bioware/EA want... but it would advance video games as a medium some.
It would be interesting to learn more about the salarian STG and see what preliminary steps they have taken for theoretical war with humankind. Remember, that even if they have no desire or intention to attack us, that they are prepared to do just that at any time if they need to. Likely before even we realize it will come to that. Such a revelation would be a scary one for Shepard, or at least sobering. It would also delve into real-life national mistrust. No matter how close your allies you must always be prepared to go to war with them or split with them. Alliances are of convenience and mutual benefit, not of friendship. After all, nations are not people.
In the first Mass Effect there was some implied depth to the Council and its politics. Most of this wasn't pointed out specifically to the player but was instead detailed in several exchanges between NPC's in the Council Chambers. They talked about humanity's rise as a power, the Council's views on it, and also the Council's attitude towards Saren. The interesting thing was that the Council was being strategic and the diplomats discussing this didn't even put it passed the Council to still be covering for Saren. In fact they figured Saren's attack on Eden Prime was perfectly in line with what the Council wanted. The novel Revelation talked about this even more with the human diplomat in that story analyzing how the Council thought and trying to trick them. It worked for a little while, but then the Council got the better of her.
Come Mass Effect 2 and I honestly think that any depth to the Council's actions derrived from new revelations about its history are accidental. For example there is a planet that the quarians tried to settle only to be kicked off by the Council via' threat of annihilation (Ekuna). This was a world the quarians had discovered but had not gone through the proper channels before trying to settle it. I bring this up because it conflicts very strongly with the Council's stance in Mass Effect 1 and in Mass Effect 2. Apparently to them mere colonies that aren't their own aren't important enough to protect from geth invasions or Collector abductions. The planet the quarians tried to take wasn't even colonized by a Council race later. Instead the elcor took it, a weak race with little power or influence. This gels really well with the observation in Revelation that the Council is really just out to protect its interests before anyone else's. The reason I don't think this contradiction was intentional on the part of the developers is because they fudged up the planet descriptions so often. You read about a world having no life on it and no real atmosphere... and when you land it is a lush jungle. So I'm sure this piece of clever writing was an accident.
Cerberus Daily News talked about the exploits of the Spectre Tela Vasir and if you know that story you know there are some interesting parts, but when we meet her in Lair of the Shadow Broker she is just a villain. How much more interesting would it have been if the Council had indeed supported her? I suppose they still might. However it would be an uncomfortable revelation even for the more Renegade Shepards/players to learn that the Council would be fine with the outright murder of innocents if it served their interests (and they are).
We should meet more people hostile to the Spectres and to Shepard. Though instead of merely talking about how Spectres lack accountability they should talk about the rights and civil liberties Spectres are allowed to stomp all over. Are they really necessary? That's another pertinent question that the audience could be asked.
Has Mass Effect ever dealt with the implications behind Miranda's creation or the ability to selectively screen a fetus for undesirable traits? All they touched on was the burden Miranda bore for being 'perfect'. Everyone expects perfection from her but that perfection still requires great effort on her part. It is tiring and the stigma of failure no easier to bare when it eventually occurs. However there is a lot more implied by all this. What are consquences for society when we can have perfect children? What about the last generation if imperfect children? To summarize this point I'll just point you to a film: Gattaca.
We should also talk about the asari's prejaduce towards pure bloods and their subtle practicing of eugenics. While we're at it, lets' confront asari imperialism. It is said in the codex that the asari conquer through culture rather than military might. So how about if we meet a Terra Firma member, but a reasonable one who isn't a xenophobe or a racist? Just somebody who wants human culture preserved rather than lost to the melting pot of the galaxy.
It would also be nice to more often have asari used better as characters. That is, the experience unique to the asari race should be at play. What is it like to live for hundreds of years? Do they truly see little distinction between the different races?
Let's see some asari who live like the other races do, perhaps even preferring their company to that of their own people.
So with all that in mind did we ever need the Reapers as a plot device?
/fanfiction
What if ME1 was just about the resolution of the grudge between humanity and the turians over the FCW? Perhaps lead by a rogue turian Spectre who couldn't get over his brother's death.
ME2 would explore the batarian/human conflicts in the Traverse and introduce us to the Terminus Systems. We'd see the darker side of the Council as we experience the situation of those races cast out by them or abandoned.
ME3 could be all about the geth and quarians and begin perhaps the process of reshaping the Council. Perfecting it, or fixing it.
ME4 would then be about Cerberus and human nationalism and xenophobia. A "civl war" of sorts that mirrors ME1 ony with a human faction as the main instigators and antagonists.
/fanfiction
The Mass Effect universe is in my opinion basically the colonial era on Earth only transplated onto space. Each of the races is a European Empire or a colony or former colony (Terminus). Mass Effect thus could be used to explore the reasoning for these Empires, their good sides, their bad sides, their benefits and their costs. We'd see how some cultures proliferated and how others were left destitute.
Science fiction has often been used to explore the human experience, criticize it, and to propose alternatives, as well as to show us glimpses of what could be.
Some debate whether video games are art. I'm mostly on the fence, but I'm learning towards the negative. Mass Effect does or did have that potential I think, however it was squandered. Instead we got summer blockbosters, which while entertaining, aren't really that thought-provoking.
Potential Depth of the Mass Effect Universe
Débuté par
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
, janv. 28 2012 07:12
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#2
Posté 28 janvier 2012 - 07:30
Wulfram
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We shouldn't really meet many Quarians at all. Whether thieves or whatever, there's only 16 million of them.
More depth to the universe would be nice, though I'd prefer it if it fit my biases rather than your anti-Council ones. And to be honest there are a whole bunch of flaws of common sense in the universe which cause problems if you're looking deeper.
More depth to the universe would be nice, though I'd prefer it if it fit my biases rather than your anti-Council ones. And to be honest there are a whole bunch of flaws of common sense in the universe which cause problems if you're looking deeper.
#3
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 28 janvier 2012 - 07:40
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Wulfram wrote...
More depth to the universe would be nice, though I'd prefer it if it fit my biases rather than your anti-Council ones. And to be honest there are a whole bunch of flaws of common sense in the universe which cause problems if you're looking deeper.
I'm just pointing out what's already there but certainly you don't have to portray the Council as only bad. I think I said as much.
I see the Council as being a bit like the UN in some ways, in broad ways at least.
Please point out these common sense flaws.
Regarding the quarians, I didn't say we should meet tons of them. However when we do meet them the experience could be a little more three dimensional instead of just "damsel in distress".
#5
Posté 29 janvier 2012 - 01:27
Extort
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maybe, maybe not. but ME is finshed after 2014ish soooo nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
#6
Posté 29 janvier 2012 - 02:04
frostajulie
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If we explored all that in the video games we'd have a mish mash of dangly threads and all semoblance of story and impetus would disappear. Everything you pointed out is fodder for books, comics and future games but I actually like the way the trilogy has gone thus far. I would enjoy other games that further explore the depth of the ME Universe.
#7
Posté 29 janvier 2012 - 02:31
knightnblu
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First, I don't think that you are going to get any traction on the Quarian piracy issue. Ship stealing is a capital offense in their society. Also stealing is one thing, but murder is something else entirely and stealing a ship and spacing its occupants would be going too far and while the Quarians have the largest fleet in the galaxy, they also have all of their eggs in one basket and risking war also risks their species survival. The open hostility of the combined races in the galaxy would be a death sentence for the Quarian people.
The Quarians are treated as anathema by the rest of the galaxy primarily because of their creation of the Geth and their lack of a home world makes them galactic hobos. Further, unless I am very much mistaken they steal necessities and not usually bling. I think that if the facts were available, i.e. created by the writers, then the Quarian deviance would be as expected for a population of 17 million, but who's going to trust a hobo?
Regarding the comparison of the Council and the U.N., I really don't see that either. The Council is not corrupt to its core, incompetent as a body, and ineffective in solving the galaxy's problems. Further, the Council has military muscle and the ability to use it rather than just sending streams of harshly worded letters ad infinitum. The movie "Team America" describes the U.N. perfectly when Hans Blix meetsKim Jong Il.
I do agree that some fleshing out of the cultural clashes could have been better explored, but I also believe that ME3 will only offer a limited ability to do so. By going down the "aliens are f'd up as well" road, you will place a drag on the story slowing the pace to a crawl when it should be fast and furious and leaving you nearly breathless in my opinion. I believe that your concerns would be better addressed in an MMO if BioWare chooses to go that route with the Mass Effect universe. Such a long period venue would be ideal for the exploration that you suggest.
The Quarians are treated as anathema by the rest of the galaxy primarily because of their creation of the Geth and their lack of a home world makes them galactic hobos. Further, unless I am very much mistaken they steal necessities and not usually bling. I think that if the facts were available, i.e. created by the writers, then the Quarian deviance would be as expected for a population of 17 million, but who's going to trust a hobo?
Regarding the comparison of the Council and the U.N., I really don't see that either. The Council is not corrupt to its core, incompetent as a body, and ineffective in solving the galaxy's problems. Further, the Council has military muscle and the ability to use it rather than just sending streams of harshly worded letters ad infinitum. The movie "Team America" describes the U.N. perfectly when Hans Blix meetsKim Jong Il.
I do agree that some fleshing out of the cultural clashes could have been better explored, but I also believe that ME3 will only offer a limited ability to do so. By going down the "aliens are f'd up as well" road, you will place a drag on the story slowing the pace to a crawl when it should be fast and furious and leaving you nearly breathless in my opinion. I believe that your concerns would be better addressed in an MMO if BioWare chooses to go that route with the Mass Effect universe. Such a long period venue would be ideal for the exploration that you suggest.
#8
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 29 janvier 2012 - 03:43
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frostajulie wrote...
If we explored all that in the video games we'd have a mish mash of dangly threads and all semoblance of story and impetus would disappear. Everything you pointed out is fodder for books, comics and future games but I actually like the way the trilogy has gone thus far. I would enjoy other games that further explore the depth of the ME Universe.
Well if you'd enjoy games that explored these topics why stand against it now?
My point with this was that each of these conflicts was worthy of a game on their own. Instead because of the Reapers they are all relegated to side-quests. It's very unfortunate I think.
#9
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 29 janvier 2012 - 03:47
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knightnblu wrote...
First, I don't think that you are going to get any traction on the Quarian piracy issue. Ship stealing is a capital offense in their society.
It's only a crime if somebody knows about it.
They have good reason to not know, or that it is, to not want to know.
knightnblu wrote...
The Quarians are treated as anathema by the rest of the galaxy primarily because of their creation of the Geth and their lack of a home world makes them galactic hobos.
The hobo part is important. Along with it comes crime.
Bling is a necessity by the way. Or at least the money you get for pawning it off is.
Sure, people hate quarians for the geth too, but that's mainly a recent development following ME1. Prior to that I don't think it would have been on most people's minds (baring a few asari) since no one alive today was alive to witness that and the geth had always kept to themselves.
knightnblu wrote...
Regarding the comparison of the Council and the U.N., I really don't see that either. The Council is not corrupt to its core, incompetent as a body, and ineffective in solving the galaxy's problems. Further, the Council has military muscle and the ability to use it rather than just sending streams of harshly worded letters ad infinitum. The movie "Team America" describes the U.N. perfectly when Hans Blix meetsKim Jong Il.
Well I was trying to be pro-Council even though there is no reason to be. They have very few positives.
#11
Posté 29 janvier 2012 - 04:13
kromify
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whoa that's a lot! regarding the geth though, you can tell the fleet admirals you agree with them and support the prospect of war, even if you cannot tell legion that you disagree with what the geth did. (personally i believe the quarians were in the wrong. the numbers of quarians killed is, in a way, irrelevant. they attempted a genocide, so the geth performed a genocide).
if you take legion to the flotilla he will mention that in all past cases the quarians have been hostile 100% of the time. since all of their experience with organics has been quite terminal i'm not surprised they've kept to themselves for 300 yrs. in all that time they did not (as far as i know) take any hostile action, until recently when saren arrived. why should they be friendly?
i would like to see more exploration of the geth as a species. anything that can believe in a god is at the very least bl**** interesting.
batarians are bogeymen because of their slaving culture - which obv other species suffer for. they are unexplored and i agree with you - a sympathetic batarian character who be nice to see.
spectres give the council deniability. and it's a plot device to allow shep to get away with being a renegade! but it's not completely without oversight; saren was stripped of his status, and shep has to go on trial for the events of arrival. so she/he might be above citadel law, but not human law.
> the lack of accountability argument vs stomping on alien rights is just 2 sides of the same coin. a different way of stating the same thing.
cultural fleshing is nice but it can bog the game down a bit
if you take legion to the flotilla he will mention that in all past cases the quarians have been hostile 100% of the time. since all of their experience with organics has been quite terminal i'm not surprised they've kept to themselves for 300 yrs. in all that time they did not (as far as i know) take any hostile action, until recently when saren arrived. why should they be friendly?
i would like to see more exploration of the geth as a species. anything that can believe in a god is at the very least bl**** interesting.
batarians are bogeymen because of their slaving culture - which obv other species suffer for. they are unexplored and i agree with you - a sympathetic batarian character who be nice to see.
spectres give the council deniability. and it's a plot device to allow shep to get away with being a renegade! but it's not completely without oversight; saren was stripped of his status, and shep has to go on trial for the events of arrival. so she/he might be above citadel law, but not human law.
> the lack of accountability argument vs stomping on alien rights is just 2 sides of the same coin. a different way of stating the same thing.
cultural fleshing is nice but it can bog the game down a bit
#12
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 29 janvier 2012 - 04:19
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kromify wrote...
if you take legion to the flotilla he will mention that in all past cases the quarians have been hostile 100% of the time.
He's speaking of the Morning War. Since then Haestrom was the first time the quarians ever returned to their former territory.
#13
Posté 11 février 2012 - 09:30
HadesNexus
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I pretty much agree with all of your points there. There are plenty of threads in the Mass Effect universe that would have been interesting to explore in greater depth, and your idea of having the Turians as the antagonists in ME1, Batarians in ME2 and Quarian/Geth concerns in ME3 would have been much more immersive and made our decisions have more moral and political weight than simply handing us Space Cthulu and dwarfing all other galactic concerns with their ominous evil presence. I personally prefer fiction that has no black and white good/evil morality and presents us with varying shades of grey, since it is much more true to life.
However, I do think the Reapers have value. The idea that the Reapers created the Mass Relay technology in order to shape galactic society in preparation for their harvest is, I think, an original one, and doing away with them entirely would take something away from the Mass Effect lore, giving it no real distinction from other sci-fi universes like Babylon 5 or Star Trek.
However, I do think the Reapers have value. The idea that the Reapers created the Mass Relay technology in order to shape galactic society in preparation for their harvest is, I think, an original one, and doing away with them entirely would take something away from the Mass Effect lore, giving it no real distinction from other sci-fi universes like Babylon 5 or Star Trek.
#14
Posté 11 février 2012 - 09:51
Some Geth
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After reading the OP I got to say Saphra you are a lot smarter than I first thought.
Even if I don't agree with everything you say I must tip my Geth hat to you.
Even if I don't agree with everything you say I must tip my Geth hat to you.
Modifié par Some Geth, 11 février 2012 - 09:51 .
#15
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 11 février 2012 - 09:58
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HadesNexus wrote...
However, I do think the Reapers have value. The idea that the Reapers created the Mass Relay technology in order to shape galactic society in preparation for their harvest is, I think, an original one, and doing away with them entirely would take something away from the Mass Effect lore, giving it no real distinction from other sci-fi universes like Babylon 5 or Star Trek.
What I like about the Reapers is the concept of technological singularity that is implied with their existence. The Reapers pose an interesting question: if your species has evolved to be immortal what do you do with that time? Your perception of the universe would be totally different from a more "primitive" species. You'd have different values and you'd think on totally different scales of time.
Even an asari who lives for a thousand years can't compare to a Reaper or similar entity which might live for a thousand thousand years.
There's an argument related to the Fermi Paradox that ponders this: a species could theoretically colonize the entire galaxy even if using non-FTL technology in only a few ten million years (let's say 50 million). Well the galaxy is a lot older than just 50 million years, so why hasn't someone colonized the entire galaxy already?
The Reapers kind of answer that question, in a way. They deliberately leave lots of room for more life to evolve so they can harvest it. In the past some posters speculated that the reason the Reapers did this was to ensure that more intelligent civilizations would continue to arise, preserving diversity.
That said, another interesting topic that is linked to the Reapers is the question of what you can justify doing when the survival of the galaxy is at stake. We aren't just talking about preventing a war, we are talking about saving all intelligent life in the galaxy. So that presents a lot of interesting moral questions. Bioware's utilization of this is a bit hit and miss at times.
#16
Posté 11 février 2012 - 10:20
Some Geth
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I kind of wish Mass Effect had something like the Chimera Ants from Hunter x Hunter if only because it would make for some great moral choices and discussion. It would also be something more nature like and not some big evil robots and since Mass Effect 1 to 3 is all about big evil robots it would make for something new and that is always great.
But at the same time I don't think Bioware is yet at that level of deep writing for something like that.
But at the same time I don't think Bioware is yet at that level of deep writing for something like that.
Modifié par Some Geth, 11 février 2012 - 10:21 .
#17
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 12 février 2012 - 01:12
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I don't know what Hunter x Hunter is, but I'll take your word for it.
I think Bioware could achieve something great if they had the motivation too. However... they don't. Or maybe they aren't allowed to? I don't know.
Mass Effect just needs to have mass appeal and rake in the money. It doesn't necessarily need to be a fine tuned work of art.
This is why video games aren't art. At least one reason, anyway.
It's like with George Lucas and the Empire Strikes Back. He didn't like the film because even though he thought it was finely crafted he didn't feel that fine a job was necessary to accomplish what he wanted. Or so I've heard, anyway.
I think Bioware could achieve something great if they had the motivation too. However... they don't. Or maybe they aren't allowed to? I don't know.
Mass Effect just needs to have mass appeal and rake in the money. It doesn't necessarily need to be a fine tuned work of art.
This is why video games aren't art. At least one reason, anyway.
It's like with George Lucas and the Empire Strikes Back. He didn't like the film because even though he thought it was finely crafted he didn't feel that fine a job was necessary to accomplish what he wanted. Or so I've heard, anyway.
#18
Posté 13 février 2012 - 03:30
Some Geth
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Hunter x Hunter is a manga that is very complex in story and moral plot lines, like the ants http://hunterxhunter...ki/Chimera_Ants So to make it easy to get, they are just as dangerous as the Reapers(in the sense they could take out all life) but not as one dimensional as them. I just would like to see something like them in Mass Effect, without being a rip-off of course. HxH also does not have mass appeal so unlike Mass Effect it can be art.Saphra Deden wrote...
I don't know what Hunter x Hunter is, but I'll take your word for it.
I think Bioware could achieve something great if they had the motivation too. However... they don't. Or maybe they aren't allowed to? I don't know.
Mass Effect just needs to have mass appeal and rake in the money. It doesn't necessarily need to be a fine tuned work of art.
This is why video games aren't art. At least one reason, anyway.
It's like with George Lucas and the Empire Strikes Back. He didn't like the film because even though he thought it was finely crafted he didn't feel that fine a job was necessary to accomplish what he wanted. Or so I've heard, anyway.
But yeah I think after ME3 maybe Bioware can make some good spin-offs? you know without being so mainstream so they can get some complex story and choices out of them, I don't know if they or EA would go for it but it is something to hope for.
I mean all the games I would call art are never mainstream(save for some old ones) yet I know mainstream movies, books, shows and comic books that I can call art, not a lot I would call art but still a lot more than games.
And I have heard the same about Lucas's views on Empire but the thing is it was a mainstream movie and it was good so I don't get him, maybe it was just not his type of mainstream?
Modifié par Some Geth, 13 février 2012 - 06:46 .
#19
Posté 13 février 2012 - 04:32
android654
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Saphra Deden wrote...
Mass Effect just needs to have mass appeal and rake in the money. It doesn't necessarily need to be a fine tuned work of art.
This is why video games aren't art. At least one reason, anyway.
Sadly this is true. Occasionally there are a few gems that can claim some artistic integrity, for example Heavy Rain. However, any form of artistic expression that's used for the sole purpose of profit has to sacrifice some of that integrity in order to appeal to those whose tastes may be more common than those searching for some kind of depth.
#20
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 13 février 2012 - 06:49
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Some Geth wrote...
But yeah I think after ME3 maybe Bioware can make some good spin-offs? you know without being so mainstream so they can get some complex story and choices out of them, I don't know if they or EA would go for it but it is something to hope for.
I wouldn't hold your breath. EA will want more of the same.
Some Geth wrote...
And I have heard the same about Lucas's views on Empire but the thing is it was a mainstream movie and it was good so I don't get him, maybe it was just not his type of mainstream?
Lucas' issue wasn't that it went mainstream. It was that the movie took more work to make than he thought it needed to. He felt it would be just as successful with less effort.
That's how I see Mass Effect and how Bioware/EA approach it.
Though some of the crap in it has to do with the changing of the lead writers, I'm sure. Not to say that Walters can't write good stuff or that he doesn't have good ideas (he does), but I think his inspiration is bad. He seems really into comic books. That's what he wants Mass Effect to be.
I don't like it, I don't like comic books. Not that I think they're objectively bad, it's just that I'm not into them.
More importantly, the first Mass Effect drew its inspiration from 80's science fiction and so that's what I want back. I dodn't like the inspiration for the games being changed mid-way through. It breaks up the flow and hinders my enjoyment of the game.
I can get really engrossed in the story for ME1 even today, even if the game play hasn't held up that well. However with ME2 it is kind of the opposite. The game play is mostly great and it keeps me coming back even though the story is at times bad or just mediocre (in a few cases very good).
#21
Posté 13 février 2012 - 06:52
favoritehookeronthecitadel
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The repears kinda blow. Yeah, they're scary, but that's it. They're not really interesting or anything else. Saren, at least, knew how to commit suicide like a boss.
Modifié par favoritehookeronthecitadel, 13 février 2012 - 06:52 .
#22
Posté 13 février 2012 - 07:16
Some Geth
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I said it is something to hope for I never said they will do it or that I have any faith in them.Saphra Deden wrote...
Some Geth wrote...
But yeah I think after ME3 maybe Bioware can make some good spin-offs? you know without being so mainstream so they can get some complex story and choices out of them, I don't know if they or EA would go for it but it is something to hope for.
I wouldn't hold your breath. EA will want more of the same.Some Geth wrote...
And I have heard the same about Lucas's views on Empire but the thing is it was a mainstream movie and it was good so I don't get him, maybe it was just not his type of mainstream?
Lucas' issue wasn't that it went mainstream. It was that the movie took more work to make than he thought it needed to. He felt it would be just as successful with less effort.
That's how I see Mass Effect and how Bioware/EA approach it.
Though some of the crap in it has to do with the changing of the lead writers, I'm sure. Not to say that Walters can't write good stuff or that he doesn't have good ideas (he does), but I think his inspiration is bad. He seems really into comic books. That's what he wants Mass Effect to be.
I don't like it, I don't like comic books. Not that I think they're objectively bad, it's just that I'm not into them.
More importantly, the first Mass Effect drew its inspiration from 80's science fiction and so that's what I want back. I dodn't like the inspiration for the games being changed mid-way through. It breaks up the flow and hinders my enjoyment of the game.
I can get really engrossed in the story for ME1 even today, even if the game play hasn't held up that well. However with ME2 it is kind of the opposite. The game play is mostly great and it keeps me coming back even though the story is at times bad or just mediocre (in a few cases very good).
And Walters is a good idea man but like you say he comes off like he likes comic books a lot and that could and can get in the way.
Sorry to hear you have a dislike for comics, if you ever want to be hook up with some great ones just call me.
I would still say ME2 has an 80's science fiction feel not as much as ME1 sure but it is there. But I am with you I do not like the inspiration being changed during the three game, a changed would be a lot better if it was after ME3.
#23
Posté 13 février 2012 - 07:20
Nashiktal
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Saphra Deden wrote...
More importantly, the first Mass Effect drew its inspiration from 80's science fiction and so that's what I want back. I dodn't like the inspiration for the games being changed mid-way through. It breaks up the flow and hinders my enjoyment of the game.
I agree with this. I miss the space opera feel of Mass Effect, and I don't really like the new "bladerunner" kind of style Mass Effect went with for ME2.
I can't say what kind of style ME3 will have, even with the demo, but I hope they can bring back even a little bit of that magic.
#24
Guest_Saphra Deden_*
Posté 13 février 2012 - 07:32
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Nashiktal wrote...
I agree with this. I miss the space opera feel of Mass Effect, and I don't really like the new "bladerunner" kind of style Mass Effect went with for ME2.
ME2 never really gave me a Bladerunner feel, but then I haven't seen that movie in years. Honestly Bladerunner is exactly the kind of inspiration we want as it comes from the same generation of films that inspired the first game.
ME2 felt like a comic-book to me. I can see the whole game as a comic book. The way twists are handled, and characters, and such.
As for ME3, I think the inspiration is summer blockbusters and probably Call of Duty. After all, that's the audience they want. The new Star Trek might be some of the inspiration too, but while that film might have been visually appealing it was still pretty dumbed down. Kind of fake sci-fi, you might say.
#25
Posté 13 février 2012 - 07:43
Some Geth
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ME1 felt like a really good movie.
ME2 felt like a good tv show.
In my view.
ME2 felt like a good tv show.
In my view.
Modifié par Some Geth, 13 février 2012 - 07:43 .
