What do the reapers even go on? Some sort of special fuel? The travel from dark space to the milky way must have exhausted the reapers to a certain extent surely.
How do the Reapers actually get to the milky way?
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Reds19
, janv. 29 2012 02:59
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#77
Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 03:07
DaJe
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Han Shot First wrote...
Blacklash93 wrote...
What's so difficult to comprehend about flying through space like a regular ship? It's not like Dark Space is some sort of cosmic barrier sealing them away.
The incredibly vast distances they'd have to travel? All mention of the Reapers in dark space implied that they were far enough out there that they needed Sovereign to open the Citadel relay to get there.
If the Reapers could just have just flown at normal FTL speeds to the Milky Way galaxy in a relatively short amount of time, the whole plot of ME1 and ME2 seems rather pointless. If it was so easy to reach the Milky Way galaxy, why didn't the Reapers just fly there when the Keepers failed to respond? They'd have caught the galaxy unaware in that case, and not telegraphed their next move by fighting and losing a battle at the Citadel.
I'm hoping in ME3 that the Reapers have 'found another way' to reach the Milky Way galaxy besides normal FTL travel. They should figure out how to open a wormhole or something similar without the use of relays, or agents of the Reapers within the Milky Way should have have reconfigured a relay to link with the Dark Space relay that originally linked to the Citadel. Either one would explain how they were able to reach the Milky Way in a relatively short amount of time while not invalidating the plot of the first two games.I think it's more the distances using "conventional" travel that boggles people's minds. If youre far enough from the galaxy that you can see it, that is a HUUUUUuuuuuge distance to travel just using ftl.
This.
That cutscene implied that the Reapers were extremely far out of the Milky Way, and deep in Dark Space. It should take them more than two years. Anyone that says otherwise, is underestimating the vastness of space. Even at the speed of light it would take you 100,000 years to fly from one end of the Milky Way galaxy to the other. And the Reapers were far outside the Milky Way.
I hope more people understand this. Most of all I hope Bioware cares. I already found Arrival offensive towards ME1s plot. If they could just fly the old fashioned way, that would be an anticlimatic twist similar to "it was all just a dream".
#78
Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 03:16
essarr71
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DaJe wrote...
Han Shot First wrote...
Blacklash93 wrote...
What's so difficult to comprehend about flying through space like a regular ship? It's not like Dark Space is some sort of cosmic barrier sealing them away.
The incredibly vast distances they'd have to travel? All mention of the Reapers in dark space implied that they were far enough out there that they needed Sovereign to open the Citadel relay to get there.
If the Reapers could just have just flown at normal FTL speeds to the Milky Way galaxy in a relatively short amount of time, the whole plot of ME1 and ME2 seems rather pointless. If it was so easy to reach the Milky Way galaxy, why didn't the Reapers just fly there when the Keepers failed to respond? They'd have caught the galaxy unaware in that case, and not telegraphed their next move by fighting and losing a battle at the Citadel.
I'm hoping in ME3 that the Reapers have 'found another way' to reach the Milky Way galaxy besides normal FTL travel. They should figure out how to open a wormhole or something similar without the use of relays, or agents of the Reapers within the Milky Way should have have reconfigured a relay to link with the Dark Space relay that originally linked to the Citadel. Either one would explain how they were able to reach the Milky Way in a relatively short amount of time while not invalidating the plot of the first two games.I think it's more the distances using "conventional" travel that boggles people's minds. If youre far enough from the galaxy that you can see it, that is a HUUUUUuuuuuge distance to travel just using ftl.
This.
That cutscene implied that the Reapers were extremely far out of the Milky Way, and deep in Dark Space. It should take them more than two years. Anyone that says otherwise, is underestimating the vastness of space. Even at the speed of light it would take you 100,000 years to fly from one end of the Milky Way galaxy to the other. And the Reapers were far outside the Milky Way.
I hope more people understand this. Most of all I hope Bioware cares. I already found Arrival offensive towards ME1s plot. If they could just fly the old fashioned way, that would be an anticlimatic twist similar to "it was all just a dream".
And the cycle continues.
It's not that they CAN'T fly to the Alpha Relay in 1, it's that they dont WANT to. Hitting the Citadel first = victory, as they can shut down the entire Relay network. No organized resistence.
Since you prevent that, they start their trip (which takes about 3 years) to the Alpha Relay (the closest relay they can get to) to begin a systematic invasion.
Arrival isn't offensive, it's simply the end of result of an ME1 victory.
It's important to listen when people talk in these games.
#79
Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 03:33
All-a-Mort
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Reapers are likely much older than 40 millions years. Wasn't that 37million year old wreck hit by a weapon in a defensive battle during a harvesting?
The idea that via conventional FTL (by which I guess we mean no wormholes, hyperspace, just flying very damn quickly) they could travel several hundred thousand light years in 3 earth years is a non-starter. The energy requirements to accelerate hard enough to travel that fast by conventional means would be enormous and frankly dangerous, (cos surely even hitting a speck of dust at that speed would vaporise a ship), it would make a mockery of the need at all for Mass Effect Relays and the need for the Citadel, and frankly why would they need to rush that much? They have been harvesting countless times and never (to our knowledge) been stopped or defeated. They could easily take centuries or longer wiping everyone out with little likelihood that any species would come up with a weapon to defeat them, after all no-one has before and they were likely at least as technologically savvy as current galactic races.
The reapers remind me of the Inhibitors in Alastair Reynold's 'Revelation Space' series, machines that annihilate every species when it achieves space flight and triggers one of their traps. I guess the difference being that the Inhibitors are purposefully not sentient and are likely left over weapons from a war billions of years ago, whose purpose is suppress technologically advanced races prior to the great galactic merger with Andromeda in 3 billion years.
The idea that via conventional FTL (by which I guess we mean no wormholes, hyperspace, just flying very damn quickly) they could travel several hundred thousand light years in 3 earth years is a non-starter. The energy requirements to accelerate hard enough to travel that fast by conventional means would be enormous and frankly dangerous, (cos surely even hitting a speck of dust at that speed would vaporise a ship), it would make a mockery of the need at all for Mass Effect Relays and the need for the Citadel, and frankly why would they need to rush that much? They have been harvesting countless times and never (to our knowledge) been stopped or defeated. They could easily take centuries or longer wiping everyone out with little likelihood that any species would come up with a weapon to defeat them, after all no-one has before and they were likely at least as technologically savvy as current galactic races.
The reapers remind me of the Inhibitors in Alastair Reynold's 'Revelation Space' series, machines that annihilate every species when it achieves space flight and triggers one of their traps. I guess the difference being that the Inhibitors are purposefully not sentient and are likely left over weapons from a war billions of years ago, whose purpose is suppress technologically advanced races prior to the great galactic merger with Andromeda in 3 billion years.
#80
Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 03:35
Drake-Shepard
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i agree with essarr71
The element of surprise of using the citadel itself as a mass relay and taking out the galaxy leaders and shutting down the relay network from the citadel in one swift move is PLAN A.
VIGIL said something along the lines of 'our leaders were dead before we new we were under attack'
Now with Plan B, it may or may not burn resources making them weaker, but they definitely loose the element of surprise, the citadel can close its arm and they will not be able to shut down/amend the relay network so only they can use it.
Hence in me3 you are going from system to system rallying species, if me1 did not happen then you wouldn't be able to use a mass relay to get there in the first place
The element of surprise of using the citadel itself as a mass relay and taking out the galaxy leaders and shutting down the relay network from the citadel in one swift move is PLAN A.
VIGIL said something along the lines of 'our leaders were dead before we new we were under attack'
Now with Plan B, it may or may not burn resources making them weaker, but they definitely loose the element of surprise, the citadel can close its arm and they will not be able to shut down/amend the relay network so only they can use it.
Hence in me3 you are going from system to system rallying species, if me1 did not happen then you wouldn't be able to use a mass relay to get there in the first place
#81
Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 03:35
Zkyire
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Reds19 wrote...
ok so the Reapers have already tried 3 ways to get out of deep space.... 1. the citidel 2. the collecters rebuilding a Reaper 3. The reapers coming though one of the mass relay's( DLC)
How do you guys think the Reapers will return in ME3?
Magnets.
#82
Guest_AwesomeName_*
Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 03:38
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Darth Death wrote...
What do the reapers even go on? Some sort of special fuel? The travel from dark space to the milky way must have exhausted the reapers to a certain extent surely.
I think we're probably going to have to go on that. I was hoping that the Reapers' alternate method for getting into the galaxy would some how be more dangerous for them than using the citadel and would better explain why Sovereign went through all the trouble rather than simply wait for the rest of the Reaper fleet.
Perhaps simply flying into the galaxy to get to the nearest "regular" relay has handicapped them to a point they wanted to avoid by using the citadel (assuming that their big relay connected to the citadel doesn't connect with any other relay).
#83
Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 03:42
essarr71
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All-a-Mort wrote...
Reapers are likely much older than 40 millions years. Wasn't that 37million year old wreck hit by a weapon in a defensive battle during a harvesting?
The idea that via conventional FTL (by which I guess we mean no wormholes, hyperspace, just flying very damn quickly) they could travel several hundred thousand light years in 3 earth years is a non-starter. The energy requirements to accelerate hard enough to travel that fast by conventional means would be enormous and frankly dangerous, (cos surely even hitting a speck of dust at that speed would vaporise a ship), it would make a mockery of the need at all for Mass Effect Relays and the need for the Citadel, and frankly why would they need to rush that much? They have been harvesting countless times and never (to our knowledge) been stopped or defeated. They could easily take centuries or longer wiping everyone out with little likelihood that any species would come up with a weapon to defeat them, after all no-one has before and they were likely at least as technologically savvy as current galactic races.
Really?
1) While the energy required to FTL might be crazy, you don't know just how much they have available. It could be a small percentage.
2) Mass Effect fields push away space dust.. and I'm not even making a Mass Effect fields joke.
3) Relay travel is instantaneous. Sooo yeah, that beats a 3 year road trip.
4) Maybe the reason for rushing is the fact that their cover is blown. Does it make more sense to sit around waiting for Shep to forget about them?
5) They HAVE taken centuries to wipe out other civilizations. They had the upper hand on the Protheans and that war still took centuries.
#84
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Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 04:00
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essarr71 wrote...
And the cycle continues.
It's not that they CAN'T fly to the Alpha Relay in 1, it's that they dont WANT to. Hitting the Citadel first = victory, as they can shut down the entire Relay network. No organized resistence.
Since you prevent that, they start their trip (which takes about 3 years) to the Alpha Relay (the closest relay they can get to) to begin a systematic invasion.
Arrival isn't offensive, it's simply the end of result of an ME1 victory.
It's important to listen when people talk in these games.
I'd say there was more to it than just that. Sovereign worked hard to build up a fleet of geth to take on the citadel, when instead he could've waited for the entire Reaper fleet to take on the citadel together. Your argument hinges on the idea that flying from the Alpha Relay to the Citadel takes too long and removes any element of surprise and prevents them from shutting down the network... What, any longer than it took for the geth and Sovereign to get there? If anything, it would've been an even greater surprise if Sovereign kept quiet and just waited for his buddies to do it together, and they would've had a stronger chance at it too (assuming they still had Saren and some Reaper husk buddies to get through the conduit).
So there has to be a better reason for why Sovereign went through the effort and why the AR was a last resort. I can only guess that flying to the AR drains them to a point they really wanted to avoid by entering in via the citadel.
#85
Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 04:02
Drake-Shepard
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A 3 year continuous road trip in dark space at reaper speed's is enough to be far enough into dark space that no1 will stumble across them and short enough to travel for the worst case situation of Plan A failing.
The mass relays only travel so far..so they had to be in the radius of the super relay (citadel) to lock onto their super relay. Or maybe its cos of fuel resources or having to eat into their element zero core for fuel..depleting their shields. Maybe they got about 1000 galaxies to conquer and they wake up every 1000 years depending on which galaxy, so they mass relayed to the nearest galaxy and bent time and space to get to milky way in 3 year! We won;t know until me3!
The mass relays only travel so far..so they had to be in the radius of the super relay (citadel) to lock onto their super relay. Or maybe its cos of fuel resources or having to eat into their element zero core for fuel..depleting their shields. Maybe they got about 1000 galaxies to conquer and they wake up every 1000 years depending on which galaxy, so they mass relayed to the nearest galaxy and bent time and space to get to milky way in 3 year! We won;t know until me3!
#86
Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 04:13
essarr71
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AwesomeName wrote...
I'd say there was more to it than just that. Sovereign worked hard to build up a fleet of geth to take on the citadel, when instead he could've waited for the entire Reaper fleet to take on the citadel together. Your argument hinges on the idea that flying from the Alpha Relay to the Citadel takes too long and removes any element of surprise and prevents them from shutting down the network... What, any longer than it took for the geth and Sovereign to get there? If anything, it would've been an even greater surprise if Sovereign kept quiet and just waited for his buddies to do it together, and they would've had a stronger chance at it too (assuming they still had Saren and some Reaper husk buddies to get through the conduit).
So there has to be a better reason for why Sovereign went through the effort and why the AR was a last resort. I can only guess that flying to the AR drains them to a point they really wanted to avoid by entering in via the citadel.
Think you missed the point of ME1 a bit here.
My argument doesn't hinge on it taking too long to get from deep space > alpha relay > eventually the citadel. It's amazing how many times this gets brought up.
The Citadel opens an instantaneous arrival for the Reapers. It also can shut down other relays. By cutting off the relay system you prevent any fleet movements. It's not about the size of the force the Reapers use, its establishing a lack of defense against them. Sovi was around to simply send a signal to the Keepers to open the Citadel's back door for the Reapers. As the Protheans nixed that plan, he uses Saren to correct it. But Saren doesn't know immediately, hence the events of ME1. If they simply waited for the rest of the Reapers to fly to the Alpha Relay, you've lost your biggest advantage: surprise/control.
If Saren was able to pull it off, the entire Reaper fleet would have arrived during the Battle of the Citadel. They came that close. Once they lost Saren and Sovi, only option was FTL.
#87
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Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 04:21
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essarr71 wrote...
Think you missed the point of ME1 a bit here.
My argument doesn't hinge on it taking too long to get from deep space > alpha relay > eventually the citadel. It's amazing how many times this gets brought up.
The Citadel opens an instantaneous arrival for the Reapers. It also can shut down other relays. By cutting off the relay system you prevent any fleet movements. It's not about the size of the force the Reapers use, its establishing a lack of defense against them. Sovi was around to simply send a signal to the Keepers to open the Citadel's back door for the Reapers. As the Protheans nixed that plan, he uses Saren to correct it. But Saren doesn't know immediately, hence the events of ME1. If they simply waited for the rest of the Reapers to fly to the Alpha Relay, you've lost your biggest advantage: surprise/control.
If Saren was able to pull it off, the entire Reaper fleet would have arrived during the Battle of the Citadel. They came that close. Once they lost Saren and Sovi, only option was FTL.
No I didn't... Why would the Reaper fleet getting to the Citadel, via the AR (which, let's be honest, isn't going to take *that* long), mean they wouldn't be able to a) overwhelm any fleet that's been mobilised to defend the Citadel on such short notice and
take control of the citadel and shut down the entire relay network and get all the information they need, anyway? They get the same result whichever way they go, so long as they have some agent, with enough backup, to go through the Conduit to keep the station arms open.So, again, it's not as simple as you're making it out to be - they didn't want to go via the AR for another reason, which presumably is that it hindered them to a point they wanted to avoid by using the Citadel.
#88
Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 04:21
lolerk53
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Dont you guys forget.
They need to jump with the realy for a suprise attack, the protheans were extinct by a suprise attack that cought off all the protheans from the others.
They can use brute force like they are doing in ME3 but iw will be harder as one can imagine.
They need to jump with the realy for a suprise attack, the protheans were extinct by a suprise attack that cought off all the protheans from the others.
They can use brute force like they are doing in ME3 but iw will be harder as one can imagine.
#89
Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 04:21
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Couldn't they just wait 60+ years for Shepard to die of old age and then attack? Would make things much easier for them :>
#90
Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 04:50
essarr71
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AwesomeName wrote...
No I didn't... Why would the Reaper fleet getting to the Citadel, via the AR (which, let's be honest, isn't going to take *that* long), mean they wouldn't be able to a) overwhelm any fleet that's been mobilised to defend the Citadel on such short notice and
So, again, it's not as simple as you're making it out to be - they didn't want to go via the AR for another reason, which presumably is that it hindered them to a point they wanted to avoid by using the Citadel.
Again.. surprise. You're giving your enemy an opportunity to make things more difficult for you. It's easy for you to say "who cares, were stronger!" but maybe it's not as simple as YOU think. Maybe an organized defense is actually really difficult for the Reapers to deal with. I'm not disagreeing with you that the Reapers couldn't succeed by going the long way (they intend to succeed this way, after all), but it would certainly be easier to immediately get the upper-hand.
I'm just wondering why, when offered an easy solution to win over a tougher one, you think the tougher one is a smarter approach.
Modifié par essarr71, 30 janvier 2012 - 05:03 .
#91
Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 05:02
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makes sense
I think they explained each reaper is a representation of the species they conquered and 'ascended'. (hence the human reaper).
To not make and take the super easy option would risk getting one or more of them destroyed which could be a pretty big deal to them
I think they explained each reaper is a representation of the species they conquered and 'ascended'. (hence the human reaper).
To not make and take the super easy option would risk getting one or more of them destroyed which could be a pretty big deal to them
#92
Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 05:03
Bad King
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Reds19 wrote...
ok so the Reapers have already tried 3 ways to get out of deep space.... 1. the citidel 2. the collecters rebuilding a Reaper 3. The reapers coming though one of the mass relay's( DLC)
How do you guys think the Reapers will return in ME3?
The Collectors building a reaper had nothing to do with getting the other reapers into the milky way.
Modifié par Bad King, 30 janvier 2012 - 05:04 .
#93
Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 05:05
Drake-Shepard
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Bad King wrote...
Reds19 wrote...
ok so the Reapers have already tried 3 ways to get out of deep space.... 1. the citidel 2. the collecters rebuilding a Reaper 3. The reapers coming though one of the mass relay's( DLC)
How do you guys think the Reapers will return in ME3?
The Collectors building a reaper had nothing to do with helping the other reapers get into the milky way.
yeah, seems quite insignificant. Why the rush to start a reaper building project. It was prob just a story filler between me1 and me3. epic nonetheless
Modifié par Drake-Shepard, 30 janvier 2012 - 05:06 .
#94
Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 05:08
dreman9999
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To understand how they got in the galexy again, remeber.....They have been trying to get in from the rachni wars that were near 2000 yeas ago.
#95
Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 05:10
dreman9999
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You do understand what their goal is. Also, it's made clear in ME2 that they want Shepard.Galson wrote...
Couldn't they just wait 60+ years for Shepard to die of old age and then attack? Would make things much easier for them :>
#96
Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 05:12
mitthrawuodo
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dreman9999 wrote...
You do understand what their goal is. Also, it's made clear in ME2 that they want Shepard.Galson wrote...
Couldn't they just wait 60+ years for Shepard to die of old age and then attack? Would make things much easier for them :>
I thought in the grand reaper scheme of reaper things that shepard would be expendable. I mean it seems they're going through an awful lot of trouble for one man
#97
Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 05:13
dreman9999
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No, it was not....The reaper being build was just the start of the invasion plans. It would have been finished after they attacted earth using the people on earth to finish it. That started it beforethe invasion so they could quickly turn humanity in to areaper andthen focus on therest of the galxey.Drake-Shepard wrote...
Bad King wrote...
Reds19 wrote...
ok so the Reapers have already tried 3 ways to get out of deep space.... 1. the citidel 2. the collecters rebuilding a Reaper 3. The reapers coming though one of the mass relay's( DLC)
How do you guys think the Reapers will return in ME3?
The Collectors building a reaper had nothing to do with helping the other reapers get into the milky way.
yeah, seems quite insignificant. Why the rush to start a reaper building project. It was prob just a story filler between me1 and me3. epic nonetheless
#98
Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 05:15
Bad King
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Drake-Shepard wrote...
Bad King wrote...
Reds19 wrote...
ok so the Reapers have already tried 3 ways to get out of deep space.... 1. the citidel 2. the collecters rebuilding a Reaper 3. The reapers coming though one of the mass relay's( DLC)
How do you guys think the Reapers will return in ME3?
The Collectors building a reaper had nothing to do with helping the other reapers get into the milky way.
yeah, seems quite insignificant. Why the rush to start a reaper building project. It was prob just a story filler between me1 and me3. epic nonetheless
I saw one theory which viewed the building of the human reaper as an experiment to see if humans were suitable for reaperfying in preperation for the reaper arrival.
#99
Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 05:18
dreman9999
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Not really. Remeber, they are the guys who tried to get Sheps body throught Shadow broker.mitthrawuodo wrote...
dreman9999 wrote...
You do understand what their goal is. Also, it's made clear in ME2 that they want Shepard.Galson wrote...
Couldn't they just wait 60+ years for Shepard to die of old age and then attack? Would make things much easier for them :>
I thought in the grand reaper scheme of reaper things that shepard would be expendable. I mean it seems they're going through an awful lot of trouble for one man
Think of it more of a concept of trying to catch a bug alive and how easy it slips out of your grasp when your try to And then compearing it to how easy it is to kill one.
The reapers are trying to catch us and Shepard alive. They could kill us 10 times over if they want to.
Modifié par dreman9999, 30 janvier 2012 - 05:18 .
#100
Posté 30 janvier 2012 - 05:20
Bad King
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dreman9999 wrote...
No, it was not....The reaper being build was just the start of the invasion plans. It would have been finished after they attacted earth using the people on earth to finish it. That started it beforethe invasion so they could quickly turn humanity in to areaper andthen focus on therest of the galxey.Drake-Shepard wrote...
Bad King wrote...
Reds19 wrote...
ok so the Reapers have already tried 3 ways to get out of deep space.... 1. the citidel 2. the collecters rebuilding a Reaper 3. The reapers coming though one of the mass relay's( DLC)
How do you guys think the Reapers will return in ME3?
The Collectors building a reaper had nothing to do with helping the other reapers get into the milky way.
yeah, seems quite insignificant. Why the rush to start a reaper building project. It was prob just a story filler between me1 and me3. epic nonetheless
Yeah, it's possible- it's vaguely hinted at that the collectors have multiple ships, so a collector fleet with supporting Occuli (and possibly geth) might be capable of attacking earth and collecting lots of humans (your squadmates do comment on the sheer size of the Collector ship).
Alternatively, it's possible that the human reaper could be finished without having to attack earth (using humans from various colonies from the Terminus systems), and the collectors would have built more reapers after the main reaper fleet arrived (they would have attacked earth with the reaper fleet backing them up to collect much of earth's population).
Modifié par Bad King, 30 janvier 2012 - 05:21 .
