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Why Add New Squad Members?


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#151
Anthropophobic

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G3rman wrote...

Anthropophobic wrote...

Ugh, all the Garrus hate in this thread is making me sick. He is clearly the best character in the ME trilogy, and I can say that because no one in ME3 could possibly be better.

And, the way I see it, giving Miranda such a big role in ME2 was an error that could only be rectified by excluding her from the squad in the sequel and bringing back Garrus yet again, with more squad banter and less calibrations.


Look out, we have a fan here.


And I thought my disguise was so brilliant.

#152
StephanieBengal

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Slothful Koala wrote...

Why? 

We have the original 6 and the additional 12 from ME2.  Now one would think we do not need additional characters, the squad would just consist of a few of the 18 characters already assembled.  Of course, you'd be incorrect.  Bioware wants to add new characters to this already massive cast. 

Why?

How in the hell do they want me to get closer to James Vega as opposed to Wrex or Mordin?  These are long running characters.  You've had experiences with them. 

The addition of new characters is just stupid and possibly the most irritating news I've gotten regarding ME3.  Second only to the race class restriction in multiplayer. 


It's called evolving and keeping things fresh. Try it sometime. 

#153
Tazzmission

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new charachers are good for story and seeing as a certain charachter's species has faced the reapers in a non military way i think its a great idea to introduce him.

and dont worry op the me1 fans will be happy in the end

#154
Zanallen

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Why is the OP counting Garrus and Tali twice?

#155
Heimdall

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Slothful Koala wrote...

Why? 

We have the original 6 and the additional 12 from ME2.  Now one would think we do not need additional characters, the squad would just consist of a few of the 18 characters already assembled.  Of course, you'd be incorrect.  Bioware wants to add new characters to this already massive cast. 

Why?

How in the hell do they want me to get closer to James Vega as opposed to Wrex or Mordin?  These are long running characters.  You've had experiences with them. 

The addition of new characters is just stupid and possibly the most irritating news I've gotten regarding ME3.  Second only to the race class restriction in multiplayer. 

Because some of like to meet and get to know new and interesting people instead of only rehashing old ones.

#156
Slothful Koala

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Anthropophobic wrote...

Ugh, all the Garrus hate in this thread is making me sick. He is clearly the best character in the ME trilogy, and I can say that because no one in ME3 could possibly be better.

And, the way I see it, giving Miranda such a big role in ME2 was an error that could only be rectified by excluding her from the squad in the sequel and bringing back Garrus yet again, with more squad banter and less calibrations.

Personally I'm a much bigger fan of the blunt and sarcastic Wrex. Garrus was cool though. For some reason I got a real goody goody sense from him which I didn't like too much. Easily second favorite character in the franchise though. Excited that he at least made the cut.

#157
Tazzmission

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Anthropophobic wrote...

Ugh, all the Garrus hate in this thread is making me sick. He is clearly the best character in the ME trilogy, and I can say that because no one in ME3 could possibly be better.

And, the way I see it, giving Miranda such a big role in ME2 was an error that could only be rectified by excluding her from the squad in the sequel and bringing back Garrus yet again, with more squad banter and less calibrations.


im not knocking garrus in fact hes awesome but honestly when it comes to the best i really have to go with thane or legion.

now if your going to ask me my top five six if you want to know and here it is.

6. joker because for a npc i just love talking to him in me2 everytime i finish a mission/quest

5.wrex

4.mordin

3. garrus

2. legion

1. thane

Modifié par Tazzmission, 29 janvier 2012 - 08:28 .


#158
setrus86

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Haven't they covered that in some interview or such? That while players love to see old faces and get a deeper relationship with characters they already love, they also like to see something new and fresh to balance that, it's not all that surprising...that kind of thinking gave us Mordin, after all.

#159
Someone With Mass

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I like when they bring in new characters, as long as they aren't too many, like in ME2.

In ME3, they're only three and they're covering the three fields of combat, tech and biotics.

#160
MordinKrios

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Isn't Vega meant to represent the new player? That makes sense, and the human alliance is a standard set up which should be good.

However, on *battlestar galatica* I agree with you. his/her/it 's space could have been taken by an ex - ME2 squad mate. Legion, Mordin, Thane etc.... Or maybe a friendly Batarian or a nice new female Turian/Salarian.

Something which would HAVE MADE SENSE!!!

#161
MAZ77

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StephanieBengal wrote...

Slothful Koala wrote...

Why? 

We have the original 6 and the additional 12 from ME2.  Now one would think we do not need additional characters, the squad would just consist of a few of the 18 characters already assembled.  Of course, you'd be incorrect.  Bioware wants to add new characters to this already massive cast. 

Why?

How in the hell do they want me to get closer to James Vega as opposed to Wrex or Mordin?  These are long running characters.  You've had experiences with them. 

The addition of new characters is just stupid and possibly the most irritating news I've gotten regarding ME3.  Second only to the race class restriction in multiplayer. 


It's called evolving and keeping things fresh. Try it sometime. 




No. It is called "reducing the workload" to make insane deadlines set by EA.

If Bioware could, they would think of ways to bring back old characters, but this requires a lot of time and effort, both of which Bioware is unable or unwilling to put into character continuity.

That's why we get a new set of squaddies with every new sequel.

And the old ones get a cameo or two.

And from the way I understand the script, most old characters aren't playable (like Wrex in the leaked beta) and Tali and Garrus join you LATE in the game.

#162
Gabey5

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considering most characters can be dead

other than liara and VS

#163
Sebbe1337o

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I could easily exchange anyone in the ME3 squad just so I could have Wrex!
To have Aria would also be f*cking epic! But bith will probably be temporary squadmembers so I can't complain.

#164
Arppis

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MACharlie1 wrote...

The fact that all but two squadmates (VS and Liara) have the potential to be dead berays your point. Thats why.


It would actualy be a good idea to make a "minimal run", try to kill as many sqadies as possible.

#165
DayusMakhina

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Arppis wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

The fact that all but two squadmates (VS and Liara) have the potential to be dead berays your point. Thats why.


It would actualy be a good idea to make a "minimal run", try to kill as many sqadies as possible.

Been there, done that. Only Morinth and Zaeed alive (including Wrex dead from ME1 as well).

As for the actual topic, getting to know new characters is interesting. Sure seeing existing characters develop is good too but it's nice to have a mixture of both. Obviously I would of prefered some of the ME2 squad to be with you but as long as atleast some of them have a substantial cameo then i'll be happy.

Modifié par DayusMakhina, 29 janvier 2012 - 11:48 .


#166
Dean_the_Young

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AdmiralCheez wrote...

MOST of the ME2 cast contributed very little to ME2's main story.  We could have had just Miranda (pro Cerb), Jack (anti Cerb), Mordin (other side of genophage conflict), and Legion (other side of geth conflict).  But everyone else had great character arcs, which, in my opinion, WERE ME2's story.  I liked having them aboard, and busting up Omega, hunting down Sidonis, fighting my way through Haestrom, and gettin' sassy with the quarian admiralty board was hella fun.

I'd include Tali because of what she brings to the Migrant fleet, and Thane for bringing in new light to the Hanar as well as a new species, but most of the ME2 cast was largely wasted space. A Batarian from the Hegemony would have made a fascinating addition to the plot as well as a character opportunity.

ME2's story 'works' in so much that it's not about the story at all. The Collectors are the background to everyone's totally unrelated stories.

Characters have to contribute to the story to be warranted. They're simply too much an investment to do otherwise. A character can have merit based on their addition to the storylines (the VS), their function as a plot device (Liara), their expansion of the lore (Vega as the 'new guy' viewpoint to introduce/reintroduce many things), or seeking the approval via a certain reaction from the audience (lust, from Miranda in ME2).

Awesome bro points and throwing a bone to ME1 players wasn't "seeking approval via a certain reaction from the audience?"

Er, I'm saying that's exactly what it was. But I'm also saying that that's all it was. That Garrus is less about what he adds to the story than his popularity.

I honestly think that the revenge vs forgiveness/mercy vs justice plotline that Garrus brought to the table was one of the most powerful and interesting diversions ME2 offered.  It made me think, but more importantly, it made me feel.  That made a difference in the story for me and for a lot of people that never even touched ME1.

Maybe, but it also came at the cost of regressing his ME1 development, in which Garrus was the young, somewhat immature/undecided padawan being shaped by Shepard before becoming his own, independent adult with an ingrained approach towards things, either by the book or direct solution.

ME2 laughed at that, had Garrus do the same thing regardless, and turned him into a dependent subordinate with a confidence crisis who never regained that independence. Your milage may vary, but I found the ME1 Garrus far more interesting for what he promised to become than what ME2 turned him into.


Like I said, over half of ME2's squadmates could have been cut (and you may have thought it a better game for it), but I personally liked that they were included.  The squad was the reason I enjoyed ME2 so much.

Characters don't have to be cut, however. You can make them more relevant to the story, or the story more relevant to them.

Take Garrus: what if Garrus wasn't a vigilantee, but the Council's own investigator into the Terminus abductions who got caught up by his compassionate Renegade nature? Garrus could have been tied directly into the story in a way that didn't regress his character (by having him abandon his development path in ME1) or abandon his ME2 theme.

I'll make a case example. Let's change the 'and Garrus got fed up with that **** and quit.'

Paragon!Garrus returned to C-SEC after the fall of Sovereign, and quickly went up the ranks with his dedication and belief in the properness of sensible due process. Never losing sight of what was important while keeping within the rules, Garrus was a rising star. When Human colonies began vanishing, Garrus recognized the patterns and didn't let the issue drop. Though Citadel jurisdiction ends at the Terminus, Garrus was able to dig up a long-forgotten provision of 'hot pursuit', and successfully argued that it allowed C-SEC to investigate even inside the Terminus. Garrus received a tentative sanction to go to Omega and investigate.

While investigating the Human disappearances from Omega, Garrus couldn't help but be appaled by the lawlessness around him, and how it hurt the weak. If Omega had no law, he would begin bringing some: he used his C-SEC contacts to set up a PMC, registered it on Omega with Aria, and began arresting and extraditing criminals, using his legal PMC to send them to C-SEC. ArchAngel grew a following even as he grew distracted from his original mission, and ended up being betrayed and cornered, his PMC destroyed.



Renegade!Garrus reapplied for Spectre candidacy after the fall of Sovereign, and soon got it. Soon gaining a reputation for pragmatic and direct solutions, Garrus never forgot that what he did, he did to bad people who hurt good people. When Human colonies began vanishing, Garrus recognized the patterns and didn't let the issue drop. Though Spectre status ends at the Terminus border, Garrus was able to get permission to conduct his own, unsupported investigation.

While investigating the Human disapearances from Omega, Garrus was appaled by how the strong of Omega preyed on the weak. On impulse he interevened one day in a crime, taking down the perpetrator, and gradually did more and more the more he saw. Without picking a fight with Aria he began taking down the worst of the worst, the criminals who affected not only Omega but also Council space. Garrus's private crusade gathered a gang of followers even as he lost sight of his original mission, and Archangel grew ever more active before being betrayed and cornered, his informal team destroyed.




Both of these put Garrus back in the same position to be with Shepard in ME1, with the same revenge story line, without negating the distinctions or characterization of ME1. Garrus's P/R influencing still matters (and let's say the 'I quit' vigilante was if you never recruited him), and now Garrus is more relevant to the story by offering some token support from the Council towards Shepard's mission: either a C-SEC officer or a Spectre is a member of Shepard's team, which only adds to the impressiveness of the collection.


That may have worked, but then I wouldn't have got to shag him.

Us female gamers have perverse sexual desires to fulfill too, you know.

Don't worry, see above.

EDIT: Okay, did I kill all the typos?  Please tell me I killed all the typos.

You didn't kill all the typos.

It's typoes.

#167
BatmanPWNS

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Why do movies add new characters? Why do books add new characters?

#168
Hyperion II

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Word of God

#169
Hillbillyshep

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Garrus was boring and meaningless and he was a squadmate in ME1 and 2.
Tali was meaningless and useless in combat, in 1 and 2.
Now Tali has plot-importance and Garrus is still boring and meaningless.
And they are both permanent squadmates in ME3.

Now:
Miranda: Plot importance in ME2 and even more in 3. Also a powerful female-sentinel to replace Kaidan.
Grunt: Meaningless, but funny and Shep is his battlemaster. Also, a KROGAN.

#170
Pee Jae

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After reading this entire thread and having a lot to say myself about the importance or lack thereof of certain characters... I think I'm just going to agree with AdmiralCheez and leave it there.

#171
Aaleel

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They had to add new characters.

There are only 2 squad mates guaranteed to be alive in ME3 no matter what.

Liara and either Ashley or Kaiden.

#172
anlk92

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MAZ77 wrote...

No. It is called "reducing the workload" to make insane deadlines set by EA.

If Bioware could, they would think of ways to bring back old characters, but this requires a lot of time and effort, both of which Bioware is unable or unwilling to put into character continuity.

 

I wouldn't call two years an insane deadline. It's just that developing a game with 15+ fleshed out, potential squadmates requires a ridiculous amount of work and no sane developer would attempt to do such a thing, especially when a portion of players won't even see most of these characters in their games.

 
That's why we get a new set of squaddies with every new sequel.

And the old ones get a cameo or two.

And from the way I understand the script, most old characters aren't playable (like Wrex in the leaked beta) and Tali and Garrus join you LATE in the game.


That's not why we got new squadmates in ME2. Bioware could easily replace some of the new ones with old squadmates and then exclude them from SM. It just wasn't the story they wanted to tell.

As for ME3, while I don't like not having any ME2 introduced squadmates in the permanent squad, I don't think it's fair to say the old characters only get cameos. I mean the squad is still mostly made up of old characters (whether they join you late in the game or not, I don't know about that) and some others, as far as I've seen, have quite important and satisfying roles while some of them get cameos. Not all of them.

Anyways on topic, they introduce new squadmates because:
a)having only two squadmates throughout the whole game would not be all that fun for some people and
b)it's important to have something new and fresh to explore

Modifié par anlk92, 29 janvier 2012 - 04:27 .


#173
Anthropophobic

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Hillbillyshep wrote...

Garrus was boring and meaningless and he was a squadmate in ME1 and 2.
Tali was meaningless and useless in combat, in 1 and 2.
Now Tali has plot-importance and Garrus is still boring and meaningless.
And they are both permanent squadmates in ME3.

Now:
Miranda: Plot importance in ME2 and even more in 3. Also a powerful female-sentinel to replace Kaidan.
Grunt: Meaningless, but funny and Shep is his battlemaster. Also, a KROGAN.

Miranda: a boring ice queen who is only meaningful through the use of the most absurd deus ex machina device ever included in a story (i.e., resurrecting Shepard through the Lazarus Project, after he/she had fallen out of a space ship and into a planet's atmosphere and presumably then went splat).
Grunt: meaningful, but incredibly boring. Here's his personality: "Grrr, I'm a krogan! I want to beat stuff up! Also, I'm perfect, like Miranda." Not sure what people see in him. Wrex is a brilliant character, but Grunt is a letdown.

Garrus: thematic importance in both ME1 and ME2, and presumably also in ME3; familiarity--both to the player and to Shepard within the story, because of the three best people to lead the second fire team, Garrus is the only one who doesn't belong to an organization that experiments with rachni, husks, etc.
Tali: she was relevant to the plot in both games. She delivered the proof that Saren had gone rogue in ME1. Much of ME1 is spent fighting the race of machines that her people created.

Not to reduce the discussion to character bashing or anything, just saying.

#174
Durdens Wrath

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What about my romanced characters? Why can't I have them in my squad?

What if I want nothing to do with Ashley/Kaiden after the way they crapped on me when I did see them again?

#175
eye basher

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Why new squadmates because that way i can completely avoid having to use garrus,tali or ashley and that's good enough for me.