40 réponses à ce sujet

[Balduvard]

Adyana Fenn wrote...
when it comes to monk, apart from AC bonus from wisdom, it's rather focused on dealing a lot of damage in hand-to-hand combat, imho.

At lower levels of monk, the defensive abilities (minor speed boost, disease immunity, and a minor save boost) outclass the hand-to-hand combat abilities for me--improved evasion is really the target feat that the monk splash is after, for dealing with annoying casters or traps.

From an OC standpoint, a bowbarian works out fairly well. When you hit your ability bonus cap through gear though, barbarian rage doesn't garner you much in addition to only lasting a minute or so each use for only a few uses per rest. When you have to go 15 minutes between resting, such temporary bonuses do not offer much value. That, and I just hate the downtime spent resting, so I opt for more permanent bonuses.

henesua wrote...
Balduvard why didn't you use the zen archery feat?

Dexterity is more useful than wisdom for my purposes, in addition to having to burn another feat to hit a target when I innately have the ability to hit that target without the feat, if I just invest in dexterity. If you're not using the monk unarmed combat feats (or not having enough levels to gain them), wisdom doesn't gain you much over dexterity, except for will saves.

I have found that the Monk splash is naturally one that benefits most from a balanced ability distribution. Everything but charisma benefits the combat capability of the build, which naturally makes it difficult to focus in one ability, though with the +15 AB bonus there is less need to maximize the primary ability or pick a high BAB class.

Of course the other major draw to early barbarian levels, uncanny dodge, is not as useful to me since I have an item that grants Defensive Awareness II.

All a question of the environment you play in.

[Adyana Fenn]

Empyre65: checked it. RDD for an archer that doesn't want to be a spellcaster equals to epic fail.

bowbarian: 9lvl barbarian, 1lvl wizard, 5lvl arcane archer (15lvl total - hotu beginning)
dragonbow: 5lvl bard, 10lvl red dragon disciple (the rest should be AA, but since it's already lvl 15...)
feats/skills: similar, bowbarian got toughness as far as i remember
base stats:
bowbarian: strength: 16, dexterity: 18, all the rest: 10
dragonbow: strength: 12, dexterity: 19, constitution: 12, charisma: 11 (couldn't make it lower), all the rest: 10
stats at lvl 15:
bowbarian: strength: 16 (20 during rage), dexterity: 21, all the rest: 10
dragonbow: strength: 20, dexterity: 22, constitution: 14, intelligence: 12, wisdom: 10, charisma: 13
AC (with same leather armor, allowing +6 dex bonus): bowbarian: 20, dragonbow: 26

so far so good?

HP: bowbarian: 142, dragonbow: 120
toughness influences that, and dragonbow has mobility, so it's still not all that obvious at this point.

AB and damage (with same +3 shortbow with mighty 5):
bowbarian: +26/+21/+16 (damage: +6)
dragonbow: +20/+15 (damage: +5)

dragonbow has much better will saves, but that doesn't change the fact that when it comes to dealing damage, it has much smaller AB at the same level. one may argue that at lvl 40 the difference won't be that visible and other factors will make dragonbow better, one may also argue that it would be possible to mix in some AA levels before level 15 - but then dragonbow would loose much of the str and AC bonus, so overall it would be still weaker than bowbarian (at level 15), at least when it comes to being an archer and nothing else.

for persistent worlds such dragonbow build may be interesting, but for OCs bowbarian is a lot better - barbarian's BAB nails it. that brings another thing - unless one wants to be a spellbow, taking levels in classes with BAB smaller than 1 (other than mandatory level of wizard) is nonsense imho - perhaps with the exception of rogue/assassin builds (overwhelmed by enemies - sneak attack is useless, strong enemies/bossess - sneak attack is useless, undead - sneak attack is useless, and assassin would be possible only after 5 levels of bard, with his death attacks as useless as sneak attacks of rogue).

that dragonbow build is far from being optimal - but it's focused on being an archer, not a spellbow, which isn't a good way with 5lvl of bard as a requirement for RDD. to make bard more usable, one would have to sacrifice some feats to grab those making bard song useful - but we don't have too many feats in such build, and archer needs them - and increase charisma, to get some spells working. but what would it give? +2 damage from bard song? cat's grace? dragonbow is a dead end imho, unless one plans to build 40lvl character.

Modifié par Adyana Fenn, 31 janvier 2012 - 02:06 .

[WebShaman]

A bit off-topic here, but it is possible to redo touch attacks - albeit it takes a lot of work!

See the PRC for details (basically, they rewrit the entire combat engine).

Pretty awesome stuff!

[Empyre65]

Did you take Dev Crit into account? Here's the RDD AA build I was talking about. After you finish HotU, don't discard your character. Take her into the Sands of Fate series, and you'll get the rest of the way to level 40. You might already know this trick, but you can copy-and-paste your build into the notes tab in your in-game journal to have it on hand as you play.

Draconic Archer (Bard 7 / Red Dragon Disciple 10 / Arcane Archer 23)
Elf, Any Non-Lawful
Playable 1 - 40, PvM

Abilities:
STR: 16 (26)
DEX: 17 (30)
CON: 10 (12)
WIS: 8
INT: 12 (14)
CHA: 12 (14)

Leveling Guide:
Elf: (Hardiness vs. Enchantments, Keen Sense, Low-light Vision, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Search, Skill Affinity: Spot, Sleeplessness)
01: Bard(1): Point Blank Shot
02: Bard(2)
03: Bard(3): Weapon Focus: Longbow
04: Bard(4): DEX+1, (DEX=18)
05: Bard(5)
06: Red Dragon Disciple(1): Blind Fight
07: Red Dragon Disciple(2): (STR=18)
08: Red Dragon Disciple(3): STR+1, (STR=19)
09: Red Dragon Disciple(4): Power Attack, (STR=21)
10: Arcane Archer(1)
11: Arcane Archer(2)
12: Arcane Archer(3): STR+1, Cleave, (STR=22)
13: Arcane Archer(4)
14: Arcane Archer(5)
15: Red Dragon Disciple(5): Improved Critical: Longbow
16: Red Dragon Disciple(6): DEX+1, (DEX=19)
17: Red Dragon Disciple(7): (CON=12)
18: Red Dragon Disciple(8): Great Cleave
19: Arcane Archer(6)
20: Arcane Archer(7): DEX+1, (DEX=20)
21: Red Dragon Disciple(9): Epic Weapon Focus: Longbow, (INT=14)
22: Red Dragon Disciple(10): {Darkvision}, (STR=26), (CHA=14)
23: Arcane Archer(8)
24: Arcane Archer(9): DEX+1, Overwhelming Critical: Longbow, (DEX=21)
25: Arcane Archer(10)
26: Arcane Archer(11)
27: Bard(6): Devastating Critical: Longbow
28: Arcane Archer(12): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
29: Arcane Archer(13)
30: Arcane Archer(14): Great Dexterity I, Great Dexterity II, (DEX=24)
31: Arcane Archer(15)
32: Arcane Archer(16): DEX+1, (DEX=25)
33: Arcane Archer(17): Great Dexterity III, (DEX=26)
34: Arcane Archer(18): Epic Prowess
35: Arcane Archer(19)
36: Arcane Archer(20): DEX+1, Great Dexterity IV, (DEX=28)
37: Bard(7)
38: Arcane Archer(21)
39: Arcane Archer(22): Armor Skin, Great Dexterity V, (DEX=29)
40: Arcane Archer(23): DEX+1, (DEX=30)

Stats:
Hitpoints: 350
Skillpoints: 214
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 23/21/31
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +8, Mind Effects: +2
BAB: 26
AB (max, naked): 35 (melee), 52 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 34/37
Spell Casting: Bard(3)
Alignment Changes: 0

Skills:
Discipline 40(48), Listen 43(44), Lore 20(29), Perform 10(12), Spellcraft 38(40), Tumble 40(50), UMD 23(25)

01: Discipline(4), Lore(2), Perform(2), Spellcraft(4), Tumble(4), UMD(4)
02: Lore(1), Perform(3), Tumble(1)
03: Lore(3), Perform(1), UMD(1)
04: Lore(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), UMD(2)
05: Lore(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(2), UMD(1)
06: Discipline(1), Spellcraft(2)
07: Discipline(3)
08: Discipline(3)
09: Discipline(1), Spellcraft(2)
10: Lore(5)
11: Lore(1), Save(4)
12: Lore(1), Save(8)
13: Save(13)
14: Save(18)
15: Discipline(6), Spellcraft(7), Save(8)
16: Discipline(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(9)
17: Discipline(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(10)
18: Discipline(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(11)
19: Save(16)
20: Save(21)
21: Discipline(3), Spellcraft(2), Save(19)
22: Discipline(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(21)
23: Save(27)
24: Save(33)
25: Save(39)
26: Save(45)
27: Discipline(5), Perform(2), Spellcraft(4), Tumble(25), UMD(15)
28: Listen(6)
29: Listen(6)
30: Listen(6)
31: Listen(6)
32: Listen(6)
33: Save(6)
34: Save(12)
35: Save(18)
36: Save(24)
37: Discipline(10), Spellcraft(10), Tumble(10)
38: Listen(6)
39: Listen(6)
40: Listen(1), Lore(5)

[Adyana Fenn]

did you miss the part where i was comparing bowbarian with dragonbow at level 15? i'm not willing to play a character that's less than suitable for the role i want to play, just because 'it will be all fine at level 40'. it should be playable and fun since level 15 - and at level 15 you've got useless power attack and cleave, together with 10 levels at 3/4 BAB. also, you're wasting feats and stat points just to get dev crit, which isn't that useful with a bow. i mean, how often will it hit? personally i wouldn't bother with dev crit unless with dual kukri weapon master/some build focused on rapier or scimitar.

[Shadooow]

Balduvard wrote...

Dexterity is more useful than wisdom for my purposes, in addition to having to burn another feat to hit a target when I innately have the ability to hit that target without the feat, if I just invest in dexterity. If you're not using the monk unarmed combat feats (or not having enough levels to gain them), wisdom doesn't gain you much over dexterity, except for will saves.

Wisdom also grants high spot/listen skills which is essential in PvP environment. But of course you play PvM.

[Empyre65]

In that case, you might like this build better. Epic Weapon Spec gives +6 damage all the time (but not until level 21).

Archery Specialist (Fighter 10 / Wizard 3 / Arcane Archer 27)
Elf, Any Alignment
Playable 1 - 40, PvM

Abilities:
STR: 14
DEX: 18 (36)
CON: 12
WIS: 10
INT: 14
CHA: 8

Leveling Guide:
Elf: (Hardiness vs. Enchantments, Keen Sense, Low-light Vision, Skill Affinity: Listen, Skill Affinity: Search, Skill Affinity: Spot, Sleeplessness)
01: Fighter(1): Toughness, Point Blank Shot
02: Fighter(2): Weapon Focus: Longbow
03: Fighter(3): Rapid Shot
04: Fighter(4): DEX+1, Weapon Specialization: Longbow, (DEX=19)
05: Fighter(5)
06: Fighter(6): Blind Fight, Called Shot
07: Fighter(7)
08: Fighter(8): DEX+1, Dodge, (DEX=20)
09: Fighter(9): Mobility
10: Wizard(1): {Scribe Scroll}
11: Arcane Archer(1)
12: Arcane Archer(2): DEX+1, Spring Attack, (DEX=21)
13: Arcane Archer(3)
14: Arcane Archer(4)
15: Arcane Archer(5): Improved Critical: Longbow
16: Arcane Archer(6): DEX+1, (DEX=22)
17: Arcane Archer(7)
18: Arcane Archer(8): Iron Will
19: Arcane Archer(9)
20: Arcane Archer(10): DEX+1, (DEX=23)
21: Fighter(10): Epic Weapon Focus: Longbow, Epic Weapon Specialization: Longbow
22: Arcane Archer(11)
23: Arcane Archer(12)
24: Arcane Archer(13): DEX+1, Armor Skin, (DEX=24)
25: Wizard(2)
26: Arcane Archer(14): Epic Prowess
27: Arcane Archer(15): Great Dexterity I, (DEX=25)
28: Arcane Archer(16): DEX+1, (DEX=26)
29: Arcane Archer(17)
30: Arcane Archer(18): Great Dexterity II, Great Dexterity III, (DEX=28)
31: Arcane Archer(19)
32: Arcane Archer(20): DEX+1, (DEX=29)
33: Arcane Archer(21): Great Dexterity IV, (DEX=30)
34: Arcane Archer(22): Great Dexterity V, (DEX=31)
35: Arcane Archer(23)
36: Arcane Archer(24): DEX+1, Great Dexterity VI, (DEX=33)
37: Arcane Archer(25)
38: Arcane Archer(26): Great Dexterity VII, (DEX=34)
39: Arcane Archer(27): Great Dexterity VIII, (DEX=35)
40: Wizard(3): DEX+1, (DEX=36)

Stats:
Hitpoints: 408
Skillpoints: 226
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 24/20/33
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +9, Mind Effects: +2
BAB: 29
AB (max, naked): 32 (melee), 60 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 29/32
Spell Casting: Wizard(2)
Alignment Changes: 0

Skills:
Discipline 24(26), Heal 43(43), Listen 42(44), Lore 34(36), Spellcraft 43(45), Tumble 20(33)

01: Discipline(4), Lore(4), Tumble(2), Save(4)
02: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(6)
03: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Tumble(1), Save(6)
04: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Save(8)
05: Discipline(1), Lore(1), Tumble(1), Save(8)
06: Discipline(1), Save(11)
07: Discipline(1), Tumble(1), Save(12)
08: Discipline(1), Save(15)
09: Discipline(1), Save(18)
10: Spellcraft(13), Save(9)
11: Heal(1), Listen(14)
12: Heal(5), Listen(1)
13: Heal(5), Listen(1)
14: Heal(5), Listen(1)
15: Heal(2), Listen(1), Tumble(1), Save(1)
16: Heal(1), Listen(1), Tumble(2), Save(1)
17: Heal(1), Listen(1), Tumble(2), Save(1)
18: Heal(1), Listen(1), Save(5)
19: Heal(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1), Save(7)
20: Heal(1), Listen(1), Save(11)
21: Discipline(12), Heal(1), Save(2)
22: Heal(1), Listen(2), Save(5)
23: Heal(1), Listen(1), Save(9)
24: Heal(1), Listen(1), Save(13)
25: Heal(1), Spellcraft(15), Save(1)
26: Heal(1), Listen(2), Tumble(2)
27: Heal(1), Listen(1), Tumble(2)
28: Heal(1), Listen(1), Lore(4)
29: Heal(1), Listen(1), Lore(4)
30: Heal(1), Listen(1), Lore(4)
31: Heal(1), Listen(1), Lore(4)
32: Heal(1), Listen(1), Lore(4)
33: Heal(1), Listen(1), Lore(4)
34: Heal(1), Listen(1), Lore(2), Tumble(1)
35: Heal(1), Listen(1), Tumble(2)
36: Heal(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1), Save(2)
37: Heal(1), Listen(1), Tumble(1), Save(4)
38: Heal(1), Listen(1), Save(8)
39: Heal(1), Listen(1), Save(12)
40: Heal(1), Spellcraft(15)

[Shadooow]

Yeah fighter is also my choice, but for a pure AA as HipMaestro pointed bard is way better.

Bard gives +2reflexes, tumble skill, UMD skill, and with 9 ranks in perform +1ab+2dmg +1will +1fort with bard song, duration is short but at lvl 40 where you can get 6aprs with rapid it matter.

Also I was building AA like this and I decided not to max dexterity, in the lvl 40 PvM environment, 65was more than enough so I took dev crit with 25str. While dev crit is rather useless in SP (OC) environment, replace few ability points by STR cannot hurt especially if there are mighty bows.

Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 01 février 2012 - 08:08 .

[HipMaestro]

The divine version is still my own preferred AA.  DP adds a better extra attack than otherwise obtainable and with the divine & magical damage boosts there are always damage components that cannot be resisted or ignored by immunities.  There are also a nice repertoire of enemy-control spells available as well, like WoF, just to cite one.  Typically, I'll leave the cleric portion at 15 dispellable levels to max the boosts but have used as high as 24 in an effective build.  An AA wandering around in GS is very hard to target with anything but AoE.

As just mentioned , those lofty AB levels seldom come into play. Damage & crits are more important IMHO.  Scribe Scroll comes in handy just in case a scouting AA notices a mage with EW up and needs to delay attack for 4 turns max.  A stack of GS works wonders when that happens. 

The only downside is that unless one sacrifices some cleric power early on, it develops too late to be of best use in mini-campaigns like the OC.

Modifié par HipMaestro, 01 février 2012 - 01:33 .

[Adyana Fenn]

Empyre65: interesting, altough very similar to my bowbarian build it's a matter of preference i guess, to get epic weapon spec for +6 damage later or higher strength together with rage for earlier (and temporary) +5 bonus from mighty (agreed, with epic weapon spec and mighty you'll get +8 overall). for now i'm sticking to barbarian, have to check if i'll manage to bypass weak will saves with some equipment, if that will fail, i may drop this route altogether.

ShaDoOoW: +1AB is nothing compared to taking levels with medium BAB. the loss is not worth it. pure AA should have as many attacks per round as possible to be useful, because it's all about finishing off enemies before they'll get to you - that's what using ranged weapons is all about, imho. i may be wrong though, i'm recently against playing casters because of the overwhelming amount of spells and at the same time, not many spells without save throws - and that's after playing all OCs with pure sorcerer. my opinion is obviously biased then, but still, i think BAB is one of the most important things for pure archer.

a little bit offtopic perhaps, but any ideas about strong (at earlier levels) build with high saves, mostly reflex and will, but at the same time, not being a caster? and not only AA. one thing that comes to my mind is some 7lvl fighter/7lvl weapon master/Xlvl champion of torm - CoT can even take epic weapon spec later, and playing it as an elf using rapier, with weapon finesse and focus on dexterity, may end up with pretty decent build at higher levels - but CoT would make up weak will saves pretty late (at the end of hotu), and one would have to spread out stat points (int 13 for weapon master, dex - same, but dex would be important anyway, cha - needed for divine wrath - 16 minimum imho - and that's still very weak - that doesn't leave too much for str). i know - CoT and paladin, but i somehow hate paladins - blame Aribeth monk-based AA? 1wiz/12monk/the rest AA - again, low BAB, but at least saves would be nice, and zen archery would get useful. not my cup of tea though.

[HipMaestro]

Here's a serviceable test of any proposed AA build (or any 'ol build, for that matter):  Kill those 3 Guardian Golems in the Creator Race Ruins of Chapter 3 without introducing the designed "cheat", one of the few decent combat challenges that the OC offers.  Once you can, it's a build worth noting.

[WebShaman]

scouting AA notices a mage with EW up and needs to delay attack for 4 turns max. A stack of GS works wonders when that happens

Which get blown off very easy from Mords, etc (not to mention what else is being stripped, reducing your protections even further ) I do not think you will be delaying any attack for 4 turns here.

At least, you shouldn't be, if the Mage player knows his stuff. Wizards get Scribe for free - that is a LOT of IGMS, etc. And such cannot be disrupted from damage...what are you doing against counterspell? I assume you are going to be healing, right? Otherwise, you are not going to be able to withstand many IGMSs...or have you scribed a lot of Heals as well?

What do you do to "stop" the Bigby's? I assume this is going to be your Achilles Heel, right? Because if you get stopped by one, game over.

Well, scroll use does tend to take "longer" to cast as a hasted Mage spellcasting. So...

It is an interesting excercise, but I think that if the Wizard player is on his toes, and knows his stuff, he just has a better chance here.

Now, against a Lich...bleh.

[Empyre65]

How about a Monk 25 / Sorcerer 1 / RDD 14, dual-wielding Kamas? He can get Dev. Crit. as early as level 24, and end with the following stats:

Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 26/27/22
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +8, Mind Effects: +2
Spell Resistance: 37 (cannot be lowered)
BAB: 24
AB (max, naked): 41 (melee), 28 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 34/34

I made 2 versions: a general-purpose version, and one optimized for the Sands of Fate series (most of the difference is skills), which I highly recommend to take your post-HotU character all the way to level 40. I can post either version here.

[henesua]

Empyre... Wouldn't that be a rather inefficient Arcane Archer build since it lacks Arcane Archer levels?

[Empyre65]

Adyana Fenn wrote...

a little bit offtopic perhaps, but any ideas about strong (at earlier levels) build with high saves, mostly reflex and will, but at the same time, not being a caster? and not only AA. one thing that comes to my mind is some 7lvl fighter/7lvl weapon master/Xlvl champion of torm - CoT can even take epic weapon spec later, and playing it as an elf using rapier, with weapon finesse and focus on dexterity, may end up with pretty decent build at higher levels - but CoT would make up weak will saves pretty late (at the end of hotu), and one would have to spread out stat points (int 13 for weapon master, dex - same, but dex would be important anyway, cha - needed for divine wrath - 16 minimum imho - and that's still very weak - that doesn't leave too much for str). i know - CoT and paladin, but i somehow hate paladins - blame Aribeth monk-based AA? 1wiz/12monk/the rest AA - again, low BAB, but at least saves would be nice, and zen archery would get useful. not my cup of tea though.

I was answering this, from 3 posts above mine.

[Adyana Fenn]

i kinda prefer my current CoT build, which is a little bit weird. 6lvl rogue/5lvl harper scout/the rest CoT. base stats str 14/dex 16/cha 16, HS gives cat's grace and eagle's splendor amongst others, and saves are pretty nice even at lower levels. with weapon finesse and going all for dexterity, it's very balanced - lags a little bit with feats, but i'm susprised how much it can withstand, and with harper's buffs and divine wrath, it's a killing machine, especially with keen rapier and improved critical. very playable as well, bowbarian was killing me after some time because of saves.