28 réponses à ce sujet

[Jozape]

My character was leading a crusade to defy the gods and tear down the Wall of the Faithless, but at the end she took a turn and entered the service of Khelemvor out of nowhere. Is this a bug? I really hope it is, because that's one of the worst endings I have seen in my life. I don't think it'd be much better even if a character did support the wall and Kelemvor.

EDIT: Wait, can I not pursue my crusade if I kill that godhood seeking skull? I made sure that he couldn't achieve it, and had to kill him.

Modifié par Jozape, 30 janvier 2012 - 12:47 .

[I_Raps]

Killing Bonehead had nothing to do with it. You probably started enlisting in Kelemvor's service when you elected to help the defenders/Araman against the Crusade when you first came through the portal, and then slid further along the path with your converstion choices since then.

Unless something went terribly buggy ...

Modifié par I_Raps, 30 janvier 2012 - 01:52 .

[Jozape]

I never supported Araman in anything. Actually, he came up to me and tried to kill me.

[NoirAuteur]

You didn't have all the items you needed to get the kittens-and-rainbows ending, I would guess.

I actually prefer the ending you got. It suits the story better than the "...and everybody lived happily ever after" ending.

edit: Out of the available endings, at any rate. There really should've been a "pursue the Crusade til the end" ending, one way or another.

Modifié par NoirAuteur, 30 janvier 2012 - 03:18 .

[Jozape]

NoirAuteur wrote...

You didn't have all the items you needed to get the kittens-and-rainbows ending, I would guess.

I actually prefer the ending you got. It suits the story better than the "...and everybody lived happily ever after" ending.

That's basically what I got. My character would never die, she would serve in the City of Judgement as a paladin or something, she would feast like a god, the Faceless Hunger is now dead, your soul is returned, blah blah blah. And yes, I agree, it does not suit the story at all. And it was completely out of character; she would never have done such a thing.

Out of the available endings, at any rate. There really should've been a "pursue the Crusade til the end" ending, one way or another.

That's what I was looking forward too, considering the whole game was
building up to such a moment. I guess that
answers my question.

[NoirAuteur]

Jozape wrote...

NoirAuteur wrote...

You didn't have all the items you needed to get the kittens-and-rainbows ending, I would guess.

I actually prefer the ending you got. It suits the story better than the "...and everybody lived happily ever after" ending.

That's basically what I got. My character would never die, she would serve in the City of Judgement as a paladin or something, she would feast like a god, the Faceless Hunger is now dead, your soul is returned, blah blah blah. And yes, I agree, it does not suit the story at all. And it was completely out of character; she would never have done such a thing.

 The Faceless Hunger doesn't die; in that ending, it's essentially sleeping in your soul. That's why you can't leave the City of Judgment, and are honored by Kelemvor - for sacrificing your own future to end the Spirit Plague.

 I think that suits the story just fine. The evil ending does too, from what I've seen of it on YouTube. It's the "happily ever after" ending that doesn't really make any sense and is just lame. 

[Jozape]

NoirAuteur wrote...

Jozape wrote...

NoirAuteur wrote...

You didn't have all the items you needed to get the kittens-and-rainbows ending, I would guess.

I actually prefer the ending you got. It suits the story better than the "...and everybody lived happily ever after" ending.

That's basically what I got. My character would never die, she would serve in the City of Judgement as a paladin or something, she would feast like a god, the Faceless Hunger is now dead, your soul is returned, blah blah blah. And yes, I agree, it does not suit the story at all. And it was completely out of character; she would never have done such a thing.

 The Faceless Hunger doesn't die; in that ending, it's essentially sleeping in your soul. That's why you can't leave the City of Judgment, and are honored by Kelemvor - for sacrificing your own future to end the Spirit Plague.

 I think that suits the story just fine. The evil ending does too, from what I've seen of it on YouTube. It's the "happily ever after" ending that doesn't really make any sense and is just lame. 

Well, I guess it does suit the story if you don't want to tear down the wall and you support Kelemvhor. But the writing throughout the entire game had me believing that I could try to take down the Wall of the Faithless, until the very last minute. And it's something I wanted my character to try. I guess Obsidian just didn't have the time or money to do it, like with KotOR 2 and NWN2. What a heart breaker.

Oh well, onto Storm of Zehir.

[-Semper-]

Jozape wrote...

But the writing throughout the entire game had me believing that I could try to take down the Wall of the Faithless, until the very last minute. And it's something I wanted my character to try. I guess Obsidian just didn't have the time or money to do it, like with KotOR 2 and NWN2. What a heart breaker.

didn't you understand the story? the knight captain's crusade stopped at the city of judgement's gate. kelemvor allowed you to pass only for freeing your soul, destroying the wall of faithless would bring down the whole universe. you simply can't destroy the wall and act against a deity's sentence in his own realm.

@ obsidian's time and money: the forgotten realms is not their ip. they can't write and publish stories without an okay from wizards. it's the same like killing anakin before he became darth vader. george would never allow such a thing.

Modifié par -Semper-, 31 janvier 2012 - 04:40 .

[Jozape]

-Semper- wrote...

Jozape wrote...

But the writing throughout the entire game had me believing that I could try to take down the Wall of the Faithless, until the very last minute. And it's something I wanted my character to try. I guess Obsidian just didn't have the time or money to do it, like with KotOR 2 and NWN2. What a heart breaker.

didn't you understand the story? the knight captain's crusade stopped at the city of judgement's gate.

Do you mean the player character? Where was it determined that my crusade stopped before it even began? Because I was running around causing destruction in the city itself. Kelemvhor's own servants were trying to stop me.

kelemvor allowed you to pass only for freeing your soul, destroying the wall of faithless would bring down the whole universe.

Disregarding meta-game information, and assuming it's true, how do we know this? Did I miss something in-game? And why should that prevent my character from at least trying?

@ obsidian's time and money: the forgotten realms is not their ip. they can't write and publish stories without an okay from wizards. it's the same like killing anakin before he became darth vader. george would never allow such a story.

I seriously doubt they needed an okay for your character to attempt to tear down the wall, which is my complaint. As I said before, the player character is strung along the entire game, believing they can attempt the third crusade to take down the wall and defy the gods. We should have been allowed to do so, even if we couldn't succeed.

[kamal_]

Kelemvor specifically tells you about the importance of the wall and that he won't let you tear it down. The Wall is seperate from the city that happens to be there, the city is just a nicety for souls to stay in temporarily, they could all stay in tents for all it mattered in the larger scheme of things. But the Wall must stand.

Also, iirc, you enter the city along with an invading army that is interested in the contents of th city, now the Wall. So of course Kelemvor's servants are going to try to stop you, his servants are there to aid the dead on their path. But once a possible threat to the Wall comes into play, Kelemvor says "enough of this".

[Jozape]

kamal_ wrote...

Kelemvor specifically tells you about the importance of the wall and that he won't let you tear it down. The Wall is seperate from the city that happens to be there, the city is just a nicety for souls to stay in temporarily, they could all stay in tents for all it mattered in the larger scheme of things. But the Wall must stand.

And why should we believe him? As evidenced by Myrkul, gods are capable of lying. Maybe Kelemvhor was just desperate. Furthermore, why should that prevent us from trying to tear down the wall?

Also, iirc, you enter the city along with an invading army that is interested in the contents of th city, now the Wall. So of course Kelemvor's servants are going to try to stop you, his servants are there to aid the dead on their path. But once a possible threat to the Wall comes into play, Kelemvor says "enough of this".

I think Zoab wanted to tear down the wall, but I can't remember. It sure seemed like it at the end. Rammaq just wanted to become a god, and Sey'ryu had a contract or a debt to Akachi he had to fulfill. He left after it was complete.

[Kaldor Silverwand]

So you would have been happier if you had been allowed to make an attempt on tearing down the wall even though the game would be hard-coded to prevent you from succeeding? I would think that would just lead to different complaints.

[kamal_]

It wouldn't just be Kelemvor. As he explained, all the gods need the Wall. He wasnt lying, as the importance and purpose of the wall is backed up elsewhere in DnD products. Incidentally you can tell he wouldn't be lying ingame, as there are books that detail his history. Good luck stopping every god. As Kaldor says, they could have let you try, and you'd be guaranteed to fail. Then there would be thousands of "I can't beat the hundred gods that showed up to defend the Wall" threads.

[-Semper-]

Jozape wrote...

I seriously doubt they needed an okay for your character to attempt to tear down the wall, which is my complaint.

your attempt was your failed crusade. do you want to hack on the wall like a lunatic to enter a dialogue where kelemvor explains to you that all your efforts are fruitless? in front of the grey city there was only one goal: the hunger within.

if you can't live with that just open the toolset and create another ending

Modifié par -Semper-, 31 janvier 2012 - 07:21 .

[Jozape]

kamal_ wrote...

It wouldn't just be Kelemvor. As he explained, all the gods need the Wall. He wasnt lying, as the importance and purpose of the wall is backed up elsewhere in DnD products. Incidentally you can tell he wouldn't be lying ingame, as there are books that detail his history.

My character isn't aware of this meta-game information, however. It can't influence her decision making.

Good luck stopping every god. As Kaldor says, they could have let you try, and you'd be guaranteed to fail.

As I've repeated many times already, I wouldn't mind that at all. What's important is that my character tried.

[kamal_]

As I said, you can tell he's not lying based on ingame information.

You may face certain defeat, but you would be the exception. Since you insist, I'll describe what happens:
Player: "I'm here to destroy this Wall, let's fight!"
Round 1: Every god* shows up and your entire party is instantly vaporized.

*every god except Tharzidun

[-Semper-]

Jozape wrote...

My character isn't aware of this meta-game information, however. It can't influence her decision making.

again kelemvor explained your pc what the wall stands for. it's a monument for mankind to not loose their faith, else kelemvor's punishment awaits. if there's no wall nobody would be afraid of a faithless life. therefore nobody would believe in deities which would then stop to exist and fade away. without gods the realms would collapse in chaos.

just look what happened after mystra's death. the weave collapsed and the spellplague destroyed huge parts of the planes.

there's no meta gaming at all. it's presented right in your pc's face.

[I_Raps]

They could have run a counter:

Souls hacked free: 213 Souls Remaining: 9,999,787

...

New souls arriving: 215 Oops

[I_Raps]

-Semper- wrote...

again kelemvor explained your pc what the wall stands for. it's a monument for mankind to not loose their faith, else kelemvor's punishment awaits. if there's no wall nobody would be afraid of a faithless life. therefore nobody would believe in deities which would then stop to exist and fade away. without gods the realms would collapse in chaos.

Well, not exactly.  He tells you that when mortals stop worshipping, the gods will take vengeance upon them.  It's not universal forces being held at bay, it's petty spite.  I know this well because I just did this encounter last night with my latest character.

p.s. It's a red-letter day in Faerun!  Okku made it to Level 30 without leaving a single bear part stuffed in a crate or ant-hill!

Modifié par I_Raps, 31 janvier 2012 - 08:14 .

[kamal_]

I_Raps wrote...

They could have run a counter:

Souls hacked free: 213 Souls Remaining: 9,999,787

...

New souls arriving: 215 Oops

Good point. As you weaken the Wall, the gods lose power since more people will not have faith (the penalty is less). But then as more people lose faith, the Wall grows stronger because of it's composition. The Wall thus can't be destroyed, destroying the Wall makes everyone lose faith, everyone losing faith means everyone goes into the Wall. It exists in a sort of steady state.

[Jozape]

-Semper- wrote...

your attempt was your failed crusade. do you want to hack on the wall like a lunatic to enter a dialogue where kelemvor explains to you that all your efforts are fruitless? in front of the grey city there was only one goal: the hunger within.

Not true. At the city gate, you are allowed to lead the crusade or just pursue your soul.

if you can't live with that just open the toolset and create another ending

Maybe. I've no experience with it, so I have no idea how hard it would be. Although really, I'd probably just go and try to make my own thing for fun.

kamal_ wrote...

As I said, you can tell he's not lying based on ingame information.

What in-game information exactly tells me Kelemvhor is not lying? Keep in mind that I don't really know DND lore, and do not consider information provided in the books in-game information. My character was only influenced by what the manual and the game revealed. Though I did skip big parts of the manual.

You may face certain defeat, but you would be the exception. Since you insist, I'll describe what happens:
Player: "I'm here to destroy this Wall, let's fight!"
Round 1: Every god* shows up and your entire party is instantly vaporized.

*every god except Tharzidun

I'm not sure if you believe me or understood what I actually said, but having my character succeed is not a concern at all.

-Semper- wrote...

just look what happened after mystra's
death. the weave collapsed and the spellplague destroyed huge parts of
the planes.

Was this in NWN 2? The name sounds familiar, but I've already forgotten a good bit of NWN2 as I kind of lost interest towards the end and just wanted to get into MotB.

[kamal_]

Jozape wrote...

kamal_ wrote...

As I said, you can tell he's not lying based on ingame information.

What in-game information exactly tells me Kelemvhor is not lying? Keep in mind that I don't really know DND lore, and do not consider information provided in the books in-game information.

So I should prove that it is ingame, except I'm not allowed to use the proof that is ingame? You are being purposely obtuse.

Those books are general information you personally may not know, but your character would. Your character certainly knows who Kelemvor is long before you participate in the Harvest Festival at level 1. "information dumps" ingame to provide the player with information the character knows, whether it's a book, data log entries on a starship, or whatever, are a standard literary practice, and not just in games but in virtually every media form that deals with fantasy/sci-fi etc. The characters know the "rules of magic" or "company x makes the best laser blasters" or whatever, the "information dumps" are how the player is informed of this character knowledge, and this is done ingame so you don't have to read a history book outside the game.

[NoirAuteur]

The point is, the whole story is built around the  player character eventually having to make a choice about what to do with the Wall: are you going to support the existing structure and maintain order in the universe even though it's unfair, or are you going to tear down the wall, causing chaos, because the Wall is unjust?

The entire story revolves around that question, that choice. To strip the choice from the PC at the last minute, when it actually *matters*, in an almost literal deus ex machina is shoddy writing of the lowest order. It's especially sad in this game because the writing up until that point is pretty good.

To sum up, setting up that the PC is going to have to make a choice, and then not actually allowing the PC to choose when the time comes, is bad.

[I_Raps]

The sloppy writing comes in the form of allowing you to believe that eliminating the Wall is your quest. You clearly don't have the means. And besides, it was Akachi's quest, and Kaelyn's - not yours.

If you really think you've become committed to eliminating the Wall, then the kittens-and-rainbows ending is for you. That way, after cleaning up after Myrkul's half-baked drunken prank you can go on about the serious business of becoming a god and changing the order of the multiverse.
 
"The sense of justice - or is it humor - of the two-legged gods is twisted." - Okku

Modifié par I_Raps, 31 janvier 2012 - 11:56 .

[Jozape]

kamal_ wrote...

So I should prove that it is ingame, except I'm not allowed to use the proof that is ingame? You are being purposely obtuse.

I keep asking for it because I don't believe you have provided me with the in-game proof that my character knew Kelemvhor was being honest. I have been patient and constantly repeated myself when you constantly ignored the fact that I did not care if my character succeeded. You can do the same for me. Now perhaps you can start by quoting, with emphasis, what you supposedly wrote that proves my position wrong.

Those books are general information you personally may not know, but your character would. Your character certainly knows who Kelemvor is long before you participate in the Harvest Festival at level 1. "information dumps" ingame to provide the player with information the character knows, whether it's a book, data log entries on a starship, or whatever, are a standard literary practice, and not just in games but in virtually every media form that deals with fantasy/sci-fi etc. The characters know the "rules of magic" or "company x makes the best laser blasters" or whatever, the "information dumps" are how the player is informed of this character knowledge, and this is done ingame so you don't have to read a history book outside the game.

This is what I've been asking for; an in-game information dump. I can recall no such thing off the top of my head that my character reads that explains why Kelemvhor can be 100% trusted to be correct in his explanation at the end of MotB.

NoirAuteur wrote...

The point is, the whole story is built
around the  player character eventually having to make a choice about
what to do with the Wall: are you going to support the existing
structure and maintain order in the universe even though it's unfair, or
are you going to tear down the wall, causing chaos, because the Wall is
unjust?

The entire story revolves around that question, that
choice. To strip the choice from the PC at the last minute, when it
actually *matters*, in an almost literal deus ex machina is
shoddy writing of the lowest order. It's especially sad in this game
because the writing up until that point is pretty good.

I agree. The writing is awesome until the very last minute. Even despite my disappointment with the ending, I might replay; though certainly not with anyone who would oppose the wall. Too bad that's the most interesting prospect.