78 réponses à ce sujet

[philippe willaume]

I whole heartedly agree with the first part of your post

for the second, well Hawke or the Warden for that mater are way too slow and overcommitted but again he/she fences like "peasant" as the 15th century fencing master would describe it.

when the opposition is not wearing armour well, you just deflect the blow with your armoured arm and you whack them, there is no need to fence. (That from original manuals)

As you can not cut through armour, t can take a couched lance there is no way you will generate the same momentum or kinetic energy swinging a sword, let alone a one handed one.
The plan is to set the point when there is only mail or no armour, and thrust using the cross guard as a lance rest.
I am not mentioned the wrestling and fencing on a horse, I could not believe what I was reading nor how well it worked when I tried it.

In some aspects the realty is even more unbelievable than fiction (some historical piece would make some good finishing moves.)
What I am trying to get at is that if I tell you that I can deflect the lance of my and hit someone with my own lance whilst we are charging at each other, you surely have a hard time believing me.
But in fact, with little practice and good horsemanship it is dead easy.
The crux of that normal/super hero is really what people deem not too unbelievable.

But that is only the animation part, the optimal build vs average build is more a game mechanic question.
Even if the animation are over the top, if it takes 2 talents to take and enemy down, the OTT animation will not be as “immersion breaking” as if it takes 5-6 talents to take a baddy down.

Phil

[Plaintiff]

I've never cared about combat animation. My only complaint is that, compared to the other weapons styles, Sword & Shield is really dull.

I've never looked to a game's visual representation for any semblance of "realism". I don't think flashy animation detracts from the seriousness of the game.

[philippe willaume]

Plaintiff wrote...

I've never cared about combat animation. My only complaint is that, compared to the other weapons styles, Sword & Shield is really dull.

I've never looked to a game's visual representation for any semblance of "realism". I don't think flashy animation detracts from the seriousness of the game.

It does not detract me much either, regardless if it is immersion or seriousness. But I can see why it bothers some people just as what bothers me does not necessarily affect others (at all or to the same degree)
 
It is obviously very subjective. (TWH too slow or too fast) And being a normal combat animation and a special finishing move probably makes a difference.
 
The crux is that animations are one facet of immersion and the feel of the game.  In conjunction with the rule set and game mechanic, it affects the role playing element which is another facet of the immersion and feels fro the game and so on
 
I think you need to have grief at several places for a particular topic to upgraded from a “it would be nice if” to a pet peeve. That pet peeve will vary with the person being a kind of focal point.
 
 
Phil

[Malanu]

Man how bored you must be to argue/debate the mechanics of a RPG. A hero is a little stronger, braver, more proactive than the average schmuck.That's why (s)he's the hero!

If you like the idea of being a average hero... play the game without adding the bonuses for level advancement, don't increase your spell list. Be average! Don't take the BFGun or BFSword or BFArmor. Use the average equipment. Sure you get more bragging rights if you succeed, but will you succeed?

Are the actions sometimes over the top? Sure they are... But that's cause there is magic or psionics or any number of other fictional reasons that people are leaping 30' in the air or running up buildings, standing on a spear, or shooting lasers out of their eyes! Some of us think its cool some of us don't be happy their is a game trying to make anyone happy at all.

Modifié par Malanu, 01 février 2012 - 03:49 .

[esper]

Imperium Alpha wrote...

Anime/JRPGs fighting/story/... is bad for me. I get all frustrated and want to blow up japan with a nuke for ever creating that kind of thing. Okay maybe not that much but still I find it horrible to watch for more than 10 seconds.

Speeding up a little all Dragon Age: Origins animation and putting new one would have been better.

Jrpg, don't have uniform fighthing style. Most of my favourites are turnbased which is slow, but then again I favour s(j)rpg where there usually is a good balance between what enemies can do and players can do. In fact if anyone tends to have over the top abilities in jrpg it is the final boss.

[alex90c]

Filament wrote...

^I can't recall any 2handed abilities that involve jumping 20 feet, unless you mean Meredith, but that was a lot more than 20 feet.

Exaggeration. Just emphasising the point that I find the whole jumping up in the air and then slamming a sword down in to the ground thing stupid.

Meredith was just ... bad.

[Demonhoopa]

Love the mage combat in this game. Hate the warrior (hated it in Origins too), liked the rogue okay. Big improvement on the bows.

[Morroian]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Meredith was insanely absurd. She shot up like two hundred feet in the air, to where she wasn't even visible, then slammed now a second later.

Well the red lyrium does give her magical powers so I don't see how its more absurd than what the mages can do.

[alex90c]

Morroian wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Meredith was insanely absurd. She shot up like two hundred feet in the air, to where she wasn't even visible, then slammed now a second later.

Well the red lyrium does give her magical powers so I don't see how its more absurd than what the mages can do.

Because no magic power in the DA-verse has ever suggested it can cause people to jump 10000ft in the air.

I can't believe you're trying to actually justify such retardedness which was put in for nothing more than "rule of cool", which it failed at.

[Realmzmaster]

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Meredith was insanely absurd. She shot up like two hundred feet in the air, to where she wasn't even visible, then slammed now a second later.

Why? Meredith has infused herself with power from the idol. She has become much more than human. She has become a vessal for raw red lyrium. Also given that she has been ingesting lyrium most of her life it is not farfetched.

[Realmzmaster]

alex90c wrote...

Morroian wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Meredith was insanely absurd. She shot up like two hundred feet in the air, to where she wasn't even visible, then slammed now a second later.

Well the red lyrium does give her magical powers so I don't see how its more absurd than what the mages can do.

Because no magic power in the DA-verse has ever suggested it can cause people to jump 10000ft in the air.

I can't believe you're trying to actually justify such retardedness which was put in for nothing more than "rule of cool", which it failed at.

Yet we have no problem believeing that a Warcry can physically knock people from their feet and there is an arrow called the Arrow of Slaying?

[Zanallen]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Yet we have no problem believeing that a Warcry can physically knock people from their feet and there is an arrow called the Arrow of Slaying?

Not to mention the energy shockwave sword slash in Awakening. Sweeping Strike was it?

[alex90c]

Realmzmaster wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Morroian wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Meredith was insanely absurd. She shot up like two hundred feet in the air, to where she wasn't even visible, then slammed now a second later.

Well the red lyrium does give her magical powers so I don't see how its more absurd than what the mages can do.

Because no magic power in the DA-verse has ever suggested it can cause people to jump 10000ft in the air.

I can't believe you're trying to actually justify such retardedness which was put in for nothing more than "rule of cool", which it failed at.

Yet we have no problem believeing that a Warcry can physically knock people from their feet and there is an arrow called the Arrow of Slaying?

War cry is a bit over the top, arrow of slaying just has a fancy name.

Not really on the same level as jumping up 10000ft in the air and bringing statues to life is it?

[Realmzmaster]

alex90c wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Morroian wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Meredith was insanely absurd. She shot up like two hundred feet in the air, to where she wasn't even visible, then slammed now a second later.

Well the red lyrium does give her magical powers so I don't see how its more absurd than what the mages can do.

Because no magic power in the DA-verse has ever suggested it can cause people to jump 10000ft in the air.

I can't believe you're trying to actually justify such retardedness which was put in for nothing more than "rule of cool", which it failed at.

Yet we have no problem believeing that a Warcry can physically knock people from their feet and there is an arrow called the Arrow of Slaying?

War cry is a bit over the top, arrow of slaying just has a fancy name.

Not really on the same level as jumping up 10000ft in the air and bringing statues to life is it?

Animating the inanimate is nothing new in cRPGs  Golems anyone. Animate dead?  Nor does Meredith jump 10000 feet in the air. She barely clears the top of the Gallows. 
Arrow of Slaying is not a fancy name. It is an arrow that decimates the enemy's life points in one shot. How about Rain of Arrows that occurs in both DAO and DA2 ?

DAO and DA2 both have things that are over the top. Jumping up more tha 10 feet in air to kill a ogre in DAO. That is the kill animation.

[alex90c]

Animating the inanimate is nothing new in cRPGs Golems anyone.

Yes but golems involve sacrificing a person to bring the thing to life, but these were just lifeless statues. And I'm not on about cRPGs, I'm on about DA specifically.

Animate dead?

Which is bringing back a once living being, not a dormant statue.

Nor does Meredith jump 10000 feet in the air. She barely clears the top of the Gallows.

It's called "exaggeration". The point I'm trying to make is she jumps stupidly high.

Arrow of Slaying is not a fancy name. It is an arrow that decimates the enemy's life points in one shot.

Because arrows can't kill people in one hit at all?

How about Rain of Arrows that occurs in both DAO and DA2 ?

Yes, that's stupid too.

DAO and DA2 both have things that are over the top. Jumping up more tha 10 feet in air to kill a ogre in DAO. That is the kill animation.

Over the top, but there was weight behind it so a level of verisimilitude was preserved (though jumping in the air when decked out in full plate is pretty dumb) whereas with DA2 everything just felt weightless, including Meredith's jump.

You can keep trying to divert the topic of Meredith's stupid jump on to things in DA:O, but I have no problem admitting if things in DA:O were over the top or stupid so you're going to have to try a bit harder.

[Morroian]

alex90c wrote...

Morroian wrote...

EternalAmbiguity wrote...

Meredith was insanely absurd. She shot up like two hundred feet in the air, to where she wasn't even visible, then slammed now a second later.

Well the red lyrium does give her magical powers so I don't see how its more absurd than what the mages can do.

Because no magic power in the DA-verse has ever suggested it can cause people to jump 10000ft in the air.

I can't believe you're trying to actually justify such retardedness which was put in for nothing more than "rule of cool", which it failed at.

Prior to DA2 there was no magic spec for force mage, doesn't mean its intro is retarded. You can disparage the reasons why BW did it the way they did but the powers in and of themselves are not absurd in a magic based universe where mages can create firestorms, blizzards and storms out of nothing and where lyrium is one of the underlying magical materials in the DA universe.  

[Realmzmaster]

I find it interesting that people are picking on certain actions as absurd when many of the actions in a cRPG are absurd, which is part of the reason they can be fun. You get to be something and do things that in real life you will never be able to do.

Mount & Blade comes the closest to real life medieval combat. No health potions, no injury kits, no mana or stamina potions, no magic and no monsters. Combat is deadly. If your character gets hurt, the character is laid up for a period of time or dies

If I can accept dragons in a game, bursting arrows etc, I have no problemwith Meredith propelling herself upward into the air and using the power of the idol to animate inanimate objects to do her bidding.

[Sylvius the Mad]

alex90c wrote...

Arrow of Slaying is not a fancy name. It is an arrow that decimates the enemy's life points in one shot.

Because arrows can't kill people in one hit at all?

In fact, arrows do kill people in one hit repeatedly during DAO.  The cutscenes are rife with such events.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Interestingly, if you read things like the Iliad or the Odyssey, the action is very down-to-earth. Sure, Odysseus, Diomedes, Achilles, et al. are superhuman killdozers, but the actual action and violence depicted is pretty within the scope of what a human can do. People are reading those stories thousands of years after they were written, and will likely be reading them thousands of years in the future. Take from that what you will.

[AlexXIV]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Interestingly, if you read things like the Iliad or the Odyssey, the action is very down-to-earth. Sure, Odysseus, Diomedes, Achilles, et al. are superhuman killdozers, but the actual action and violence depicted is pretty within the scope of what a human can do. People are reading those stories thousands of years after they were written, and will likely be reading them thousands of years in the future. Take from that what you will.

Because realism makes it easier to take it serious. The more a protagonist seems like a real person, the more people can connect and actually like the character. It's not about being 'average', it is about being a realistic hero as in opposite to ... an anime hiro.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

AlexXIV wrote...

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Interestingly, if you read things like the Iliad or the Odyssey, the action is very down-to-earth. Sure, Odysseus, Diomedes, Achilles, et al. are superhuman killdozers, but the actual action and violence depicted is pretty within the scope of what a human can do. People are reading those stories thousands of years after they were written, and will likely be reading them thousands of years in the future. Take from that what you will.

Because realism makes it easier to take it serious. The more a protagonist seems like a real person, the more people can connect and actually like the character. It's not about being 'average', it is about being a realistic hero as in opposite to ... an anime hiro.

My take exactly. One of the best scenes in the Odyssey, for instance, is the one where Odysseus almost drowns. His weakness (in the sense that he's as weak as the rest of us when confronted by breakers, undertow, and sharp rocks) makes him a character you can sympathize with. That writing philosophy also seems to inform the fight scenes in those stories.

[Lasien]

[quote]alex90c wrote...


[quote]Animating the inanimate is nothing new in cRPGs Golems anyone.[/quote]

Yes but golems involve sacrificing a person to bring the thing to life, but these were just lifeless statues. And I'm not on about cRPGs, I'm on about DA specifically.
[/quote]

Rockfist, anyone. Animating dirt into a hand.

[quote]


[quote]Animate dead?[/quote]

Which is bringing back a once living being, not a dormant statue.


[quote]Nor does Meredith jump 10000 feet in the air. She barely clears the top of the Gallows. [/quote]

It's called "exaggeration". The point I'm trying to make is she jumps stupidly high.

[/quote]

Possesed. by. evil. magic.
and if were going to harp about unrealities... Morrigan regularly changes her entire body into a huge freakish monster and doesn't have to get new clothes after. Also, baddies frequently jump down from cliffs and second story buildings with no ill effect.

[quote]


[quote]Arrow of Slaying is not a fancy name. It is an arrow that decimates the enemy's life points in one shot. [/quote]

Because arrows can't kill people in one hit at all?
[/quote]

Hit someone in the eye or heart and they are pretty much gone. A really good archer can do that in real life.

[quote]

[quote]How about Rain of Arrows that occurs in both DAO and DA2 ?[/quote]

Yes, that's stupid too.


[quote]DAO and DA2 both have things that are over the top. Jumping up more tha 10 feet in air to kill a ogre in DAO. That is the kill animation.[/quote]

Over the top, but there was weight behind it so a level of verisimilitude was preserved (though jumping in the air when decked out in full plate is pretty dumb) whereas with DA2 everything just felt weightless, including Meredith's jump.

You can keep trying to divert the topic of Meredith's stupid jump on to things in DA:O, but I have no problem admitting if things in DA:O were over the top or stupid so you're going to have to try a bit harder.

[/quote]

Really? Now you're just being picky. because 10 feet is about how high she jumps.




[quote]  Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut said


Interestingly, if you read things like the Iliad or the Odyssey, the action is very down-to-earth. Sure, Odysseus, Diomedes, Achilles, et al. are superhuman killdozers, but the actual action and violence depicted is pretty within the scope of what a human can do. People are reading those stories thousands of years after they were written, and will likely be reading them thousands of years in the future. Take from that what you will.

[/quote]

The only thing I saw in DA2 outside the scope of human abilities (except magic ) was the meatchunks resulting from the dual wield finisher. Everything else can be done with training. King George (I think it was george anyway.) used two longswords in combat. One of my ancestors apparently had an iron knee replacement so he could continue battling after having one shattered. You get faster at wielding the stronger you are. Plus, I don't see any difference in the animations for longswords.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Lasien wrote...

  Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut said


Interestingly, if you read things like the Iliad or the Odyssey, the action is very down-to-earth. Sure, Odysseus, Diomedes, Achilles, et al. are superhuman killdozers, but the actual action and violence depicted is pretty within the scope of what a human can do. People are reading those stories thousands of years after they were written, and will likely be reading them thousands of years in the future. Take from that what you will.

The only thing I saw in DA2 outside the scope of human abilities (except magic ) was the meatchunks resulting from the dual wield finisher. Everything else can be done with training. King George (I think it was george anyway.) used two longswords in combat. One of my ancestors apparently had an iron knee replacement so he could continue battling after having one shattered. You get faster at wielding the stronger you are. Plus, I don't see any difference in the animations for longswords.

Wow, you mean that if I practice hard enough I can http://dragonage.wik...o-Back]teleport over to my friends[/url]? Think of all the money I'll save on gas!

And I must have missed the bit in the Odyssey where Telemachus slams his spear into the ground so hard he instagibs the dude next to him.