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[Lasien]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Lasien wrote...

  Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut said


Interestingly, if you read things like the Iliad or the Odyssey, the action is very down-to-earth. Sure, Odysseus, Diomedes, Achilles, et al. are superhuman killdozers, but the actual action and violence depicted is pretty within the scope of what a human can do. People are reading those stories thousands of years after they were written, and will likely be reading them thousands of years in the future. Take from that what you will.

The only thing I saw in DA2 outside the scope of human abilities (except magic ) was the meatchunks resulting from the dual wield finisher. Everything else can be done with training. King George (I think it was george anyway.) used two longswords in combat. One of my ancestors apparently had an iron knee replacement so he could continue battling after having one shattered. You get faster at wielding the stronger you are. Plus, I don't see any difference in the animations for longswords.

Wow, you mean that if I practice hard enough I can http://dragonage.wik...o-Back]teleport over to my friends[/url]? Think of all the money I'll save on gas!

And I must have missed the bit in the Odyssey where Telemachus slams his spear into the ground so hard he instagibs the dude next to him.

So we're ignoring the parentheses are we?   And I'll admit, I forgot about the ground pound abilities.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Lasien wrote...
So we're ignoring the parentheses are we?   And I'll admit, I forgot about the ground pound abilities.

Teleportation over to your friends is a rogue ability. According to a codex somewhere, it's impossible to do with magic in the DA universe, anyway.

Modifié par Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut, 31 janvier 2012 - 02:16 .

[Sacred_Fantasy]

FrightBlight wrote...
What I'm wondering is why the hero of the story can't be better than the average fighter.

You can take down armies of skilled fighters by yourself, save the world thriceover, and have the gall to do it all over again.

Your not just some guy who picked up a sword, your much more than that. If you were "average" you'd of died long before the world ending threat even showed itself.

Skilled Veterans would be jealous to have a 1/4 of your ability.
You're The Hero

 A hero doesn't necessary be a superhuman. Otherwise we may as well play as Mighty Morphin Power Rangers or Marvel Comics Superheroes. A hero can be a lousy fighter but manage to defeat an army of Power Rangers/Voltron who never use their brains. Or a hero can be an average joe who survive against all odds.  In RPG there is a thing called leveling. You are the average person when you start the game. You become a hero when you developed enough skill and attribute. Those leveling is what make character development realistic. You don't just jump 100000ft. You need to develop your acrobatic skill first. You don't just swing 10000kg sword. You need to develop your strength first  You don't just explode enemies bodies with single slash. You need to develop your alchemy skill first. You don't just twirl around. You need to develop your martial art first. All this training and development make sense of why you can do such thing that no average person can. But RPG has been dumbed down too much that everything become too lazy and easy. hence, we get all this nonsense things. Anyway, Try to kill Meredith using level 1 skill/attribute on nightmare mode and see if you can be that hero. 

Bottomline is, we want to be a hero but not power ranger or Marvel's superheroes who make little sense of character developement which is essential to RPG.

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 31 janvier 2012 - 01:11 .

[Plaintiff]

alex90c wrote...
Because no magic power in the DA-verse has ever suggested it can cause people to jump 10000ft in the air.

Because red lyrium is completely new and we have no idea what its capable of.

I can't believe you're trying to actually justify such retardedness which was put in for nothing more than "rule of cool", which it failed at.

She doesn't need to justify anything, it's perfectly well justified in-game. Red lyrium gives people powers, it's that simple. We don't know how or why, and it will probably be expanded on in future installments.

Last I checked, substances and items that bestow special abilities on the holder are pretty standard fare in fantasy games.

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Arrow of Slaying is not a fancy name. It is an arrow that decimates the enemy's life points in one shot.

Because arrows can't kill people in one hit at all?

In fact, arrows do kill people in one hit repeatedly during DAO.  The cutscenes are rife with such events.

The difference is that Arrow of Slaying's effect can be ignored by high level creatures and elite bosses are immune. I have yet to see any creature that is immune to a shot in the eye or heart, unless they are already dead.

[Gibb_Shepard]

I disliked Meredith jumpiong around like a hamster on cocaine, but not because i think it is impossible. It's mainly because it looks absolutely ridiculous.

At least Meredith had justification for her super powers, that Duke at the end of MOTA basically teleported everywhere. That being BW latest DLC, i don't hold out much hope for them ever bringing a sense of normalcy to the battles in the future

[Plaintiff]

"Normalcy" relative to what?

[Gibb_Shepard]

Normalcy in the sense of avoiding blood mages jumping off of ceilings and suctioning their feet to vertical walls. Normalcy in avoiding mages throwing their staff like a lightsaber and having it return to them boomerang style.

I'm sure BW could find a way to justify these things through magic, but that doesn't make it any less stupid and unnecessary. I wait for the day BW incorporate more lore allowing special Orlesians of noble blood having the power of extreme speed. At least that'll explain the Duke.

[Realmzmaster]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Normalcy in the sense of avoiding blood mages jumping off of ceilings and suctioning their feet to vertical walls. Normalcy in avoiding mages throwing their staff like a lightsaber and having it return to them boomerang style.

I'm sure BW could find a way to justify these things through magic, but that doesn't make it any less stupid and unnecessary. I wait for the day BW incorporate more lore allowing special Orlesians of noble blood having the power of extreme speed. At least that'll explain the Duke.

Normalcy requires a standard to judge against. That standard would have to be considered the norm that way it can be judged what is abnormal. So what is that norm in regards to DA and cRPGS in general?

[Gibb_Shepard]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Normalcy in the sense of avoiding blood mages jumping off of ceilings and suctioning their feet to vertical walls. Normalcy in avoiding mages throwing their staff like a lightsaber and having it return to them boomerang style.

I'm sure BW could find a way to justify these things through magic, but that doesn't make it any less stupid and unnecessary. I wait for the day BW incorporate more lore allowing special Orlesians of noble blood having the power of extreme speed. At least that'll explain the Duke.

Normalcy requires a standard to judge against. That standard would have to be considered the norm that way it can be judged what is abnormal. So what is that norm in regards to DA and cRPGS in general?

cRPGs in general? I think not. I'm not making a claim on all RPGs out there, so don't think i am.

The norm in regards to DA is DA itself. DAO to be precise.

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 31 janvier 2012 - 04:39 .

[TEWR]

alex90c wrote...

Yes but golems involve sacrificing a person to bring the thing to life, but these were just lifeless statues. And I'm not on about cRPGs, I'm on about DA specifically.

That's regarding normal golems where blue lyrium was used. Red lyrium is entirely different from blue lyrium, and could be seen as not needing a sacrifice to make a golem (which the DAII Collector's Edition Guide calls those statues).

Additionally, the lyrium idol may not even be the same thing as red lyrium. It might be far more powerful then the red lyrium. Remember that it caused Meredith and Bartrand to hear voices, meaning that there was something at work inside.

Now if she found a blue lyrium idol, then it would be bad. 

However, because of the fact that Golems exist in the Primeval Thaig, one has to believe one of two things: 

1) There is another way to make Golems that doesn't involve sacrificing people

2) There is another Anvil of the Void somewhere down there. And I believe that the Anvil is a natural formation and not something Caridin created.

Finally, Primeval Thaig Dwarves may have had 2 but also were so advanced in Golem making that 1 was also possible.

 


It's called "exaggeration". The point I'm trying to make is she jumps stupidly high.

It would only be stupidly high if she wasn't made insane by the lyrium idol.

That said, I wasn't a fan of it myself. 

But it's justifiable in-game, unlike things like Hemorrhage -- especially when Grace used it in a cutscene, which immediately means that it's absurdly unrealistic. If it was just a game animation, I might have been able to tolerate it. But since it was used in a cutscene, it's not just a game animation. It's something you can do and apparently survive.

And no, the "Thedas isn't Earth" argument won't fly at all people.

Because arrows can't kill people in one hit at all?

Your snark aside, arrows can kill people in one hit just as they can not kill people in one hit. Depends on where it hits, which is perfectly justifiable for it not working on the higher level bosses.

Yes, that's stupid too.

Eh I don't really mind it. I find that DAO:A's Hail of Arrows did a better job at it by having the Archer fire into the air multiple times. A fair balance between realism and rule of cool

Still, it's not something bad in either game imo.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 31 janvier 2012 - 05:23 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Realmzmaster wrote...

The difference is that Arrow of Slaying's effect can be ignored by high level creatures and elite bosses are immune. I have yet to see any creature that is immune to a shot in the eye or heart, unless they are already dead.

But you have.  You just listed some.

Unless you're insisting that the in-game reality conform to some arbitrary external standard.

[Fisto The Sexbot]

1. You can be a hero without having to jump 15 feet in the air. It ruins the feel the series originally had.

2. You are treated as a hero 'just because'. You are accepted as something special even if you haven't done a lot to prove yourself to be more special than your companions, or the other powerful characters you meet.

And that's a problem with a lot of BioWare games. It's as if the characters possess metagame knowledge that 'you're the one', and react accordingly. They let you lead. They fall in love with you immediately. Man, I would love for people to worship the ground I walk on after I tell them that I'm the narrator of my own story and the rest of the world are my accessories, but that would be insane troll logic.

I love being awesome. But when the game keeps telling me I'm awesome when I haven't done much at all....

Modifié par Fisto The Sexbot, 31 janvier 2012 - 08:43 .

[Realmzmaster]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

The difference is that Arrow of Slaying's effect can be ignored by high level creatures and elite bosses are immune. I have yet to see any creature that is immune to a shot in the eye or heart, unless they are already dead.

But you have.  You just listed some.

Unless you're insisting that the in-game reality conform to some arbitrary external standard.

Note I said that elite bosses and high level creatures are immune to Arrow of Slaying's effect. They should not be immune to the arrow itself, but they are. Which makes no sense because they are not immune to "regular" arrows.

OthercRPGs have special physical arrows, like arrows of frost or arrows of fire. If you shoot an arrows of frost at a yeti the frost effect should be ignore, but not the physical damage from the arrow unless the arrow cannot pentrate the yeti's skin. Those two actions should be calculated separately.

Modifié par Realmzmaster, 31 janvier 2012 - 09:04 .

[Realmzmaster]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Realmzmaster wrote...

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Normalcy in the sense of avoiding blood mages jumping off of ceilings and suctioning their feet to vertical walls. Normalcy in avoiding mages throwing their staff like a lightsaber and having it return to them boomerang style.

I'm sure BW could find a way to justify these things through magic, but that doesn't make it any less stupid and unnecessary. I wait for the day BW incorporate more lore allowing special Orlesians of noble blood having the power of extreme speed. At least that'll explain the Duke.

Normalcy requires a standard to judge against. That standard would have to be considered the norm that way it can be judged what is abnormal. So what is that norm in regards to DA and cRPGS in general?

cRPGs in general? I think not. I'm not making a claim on all RPGs out there, so don't think i am.

The norm in regards to DA is DA itself. DAO to be precise.

One game does not make a standard. A standard is an agreed upon norm. You may take DAO as the standard and others may not. If a person played DA2 first that would be their standard of comparison as some have done on this forum. Some of them think DAO falls short of the standard of DA2. Others think DAO exceeds the standard set by DA2.

My standard is cumulation of all the cRPGs I have played.

[Realmzmaster]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

alex90c wrote...

Yes but golems involve sacrificing a person to bring the thing to life, but these were just lifeless statues. And I'm not on about cRPGs, I'm on about DA specifically.

That's regarding normal golems where blue lyrium was used. Red lyrium is entirely different from blue lyrium, and could be seen as not needing a sacrifice to make a golem (which the DAII Collector's Edition Guide calls those statues).

Additionally, the lyrium idol may not even be the same thing as red lyrium. It might be far more powerful then the red lyrium. Remember that it caused Meredith and Bartrand to hear voices, meaning that there was something at work inside.

Now if she found a blue lyrium idol, then it would be bad. 

However, because of the fact that Golems exist in the Primeval Thaig, one has to believe one of two things: 

1) There is another way to make Golems that doesn't involve sacrificing people

2) There is another Anvil of the Void somewhere down there. And I believe that the Anvil is a natural formation and not something Caridin created.

Finally, Primeval Thaig Dwarves may have had 2 but also were so advanced in Golem making that 1 was also possible.

 


It's called "exaggeration". The point I'm trying to make is she jumps stupidly high.

It would only be stupidly high if she wasn't made insane by the lyrium idol.

That said, I wasn't a fan of it myself. 

But it's justifiable in-game, unlike things like Hemorrhage -- especially when Grace used it in a cutscene, which immediately means that it's absurdly unrealistic. If it was just a game animation, I might have been able to tolerate it. But since it was used in a cutscene, it's not just a game animation. It's something you can do and apparently survive.

And no, the "Thedas isn't Earth" argument won't fly at all people.

Because arrows can't kill people in one hit at all?

Your snark aside, arrows can kill people in one hit just as they can not kill people in one hit. Depends on where it hits, which is perfectly justifiable for it not working on the higher level bosses.

Yes, that's stupid too.

Eh I don't really mind it. I find that DAO:A's Hail of Arrows did a better job at it by having the Archer fire into the air multiple times. A fair balance between realism and rule of cool

Still, it's not something bad in either game imo.

In addition to what Ethereal Writer Redux said, if the warden destroys the Anvil the dwarves try to reconstruct it from Caridin's notes. They bind a spirit from the fade to the golem. The golem goes mad but it is animated since it kills many dwarves. It does not require a living sacrfice. It requires a spirit. Golems of Amgarrak expounds further on this point.

The idol is able to influence living people. Therefore it may contain a sprit that can spread it essense among also inanimate objects at the weilder's bidding. It was able to grant Meredith's extraordinary powers and rehape itself to her liking.

[Lasien]

One thing I feel like everyone is forgeting is that the entire game is a narrative told by a dwarf with a tendency to over-exagerate everything.

Bioware built themselves an out with that. It means they can try new stuff, including over-the-top stuff, and it doesn't have to be canon. It can be written off as Varric "spicing up" the story.

[Sacred_Fantasy]

Lasien wrote...

One thing I feel like everyone is forgeting is that the entire game is a narrative told by a dwarf with a tendency to over-exagerate everything.

Bioware built themselves an out with that. It means they can try new stuff, including over-the-top stuff, and it doesn't have to be canon. It can be written off as Varric "spicing up" the story.

Which is why I despise this kind of storytelling. It can be used as justification to invalidate any player's decision. It also mean that any progress and accomplishment done by player can be argued as Varric "spicing up" the story as well, hence, making your RPG completely a waste of time. From the moment Varric exaggerated the first 2 minutes of the game, I can't rely on the story already. I mean, why on earth would you want to believe in such story when it's been clearly indicated unreliable by the developer? The superhuman combat animation only serve to validate this - which is why I choose to ignore it. 

Modifié par Sacred_Fantasy, 01 février 2012 - 12:59 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lasien wrote...

One thing I feel like everyone is forgeting is that the entire game is a narrative told by a dwarf with a tendency to over-exagerate everything.

Bioware built themselves an out with that. It means they can try new stuff, including over-the-top stuff, and it doesn't have to be canon. It can be written off as Varric "spicing up" the story.

I tried to embrace that, I really did, but what that means is that great swaths of the game become nothing more than filler - pointless busywork that has nothing at all to do with my character.

I would, frankly, rather spend my time organising my inventory than acting out Varric's fiction.

[Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut]

Lasien wrote...

One thing I feel like everyone is forgeting is that the entire game is a narrative told by a dwarf with a tendency to over-exagerate everything.

Bioware built themselves an out with that. It means they can try new stuff, including over-the-top stuff, and it doesn't have to be canon. It can be written off as Varric "spicing up" the story.

So in other words, while most storytellers use an unreliable narrator to tell an interesting story, Bioware uses an unreliable narrator to put spikes on everything, spam the player with waves of trash mobs, and give non-supernaturals essentially supernatural abilities. Gotcha.

[Lasien]

Sacred_Fantasy wrote...

Lasien wrote...

One thing I feel like everyone is forgeting is that the entire game is a narrative told by a dwarf with a tendency to over-exagerate everything.

Bioware built themselves an out with that. It means they can try new stuff, including over-the-top stuff, and it doesn't have to be canon. It can be written off as Varric "spicing up" the story.

Which is why I despise this kind of storytelling. It can be used as justification to invalidate any player's decision. It also mean that any progress and accomplishment done by player can be argued as Varric "spicing up" the story as well, hence, making your RPG completely a waste of time. From the moment Varric exaggerated the first 2 minutes of the game, I can't rely on the story already. I mean, why on earth would you want to believe in such story when it's been clearly indicated unreliable by the developer? The superhuman combat animation only serve to validate this - which is why I choose to ignore it. 

I tried to embrace that, I really did, but what that means is that great swaths of the game become nothing more than filler - pointless busywork that has nothing at all to do with my character.

I would, frankly, rather spend my time organising my inventory than acting out Varric's fiction.

     I do have a problem with it. However, I don't think that BW will use that to re-do huge swaths of story, more that they can claim things like meat-chunking finisher moves were just embellishments. Same with the story. They might use the narrator excuse to change slightly how things happened, but not what happened. So player choice would still guide the story, but stuff wouldn't be quite as exaggerated. (Like the dagger-toss kills and ret-conned hurlocks - which I still like.)

[Lasien]

Dave Exclamation Mark Yognaut wrote...

Lasien wrote...

One thing I feel like everyone is forgeting is that the entire game is a narrative told by a dwarf with a tendency to over-exagerate everything.

Bioware built themselves an out with that. It means they can try new stuff, including over-the-top stuff, and it doesn't have to be canon. It can be written off as Varric "spicing up" the story.

So in other words, while most storytellers use an unreliable narrator to tell an interesting story, Bioware uses an unreliable narrator to put spikes on everything, spam the player with waves of trash mobs, and give non-supernaturals essentially supernatural abilities. Gotcha.

Pretty much. Spiky stuff, more mobs than there actually were, over the top abilities.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Lasien wrote...

However, I don't think that BW will use that to re-do huge swaths of story, more that they can claim things like meat-chunking finisher moves were just embellishments.

Huge swaths of the story were out-of-character for my Hawke.  I need them to be embellishments.

But that also made them really boring.

[Ghidorah14]

My problem is that this was obviously supposed to be a more personal story about someone who wasnt a hero, but rather the catalyst that set into motion the events that lead to DA3. Hawke is a stepping stone for what is to come. But all this time, Hawke was hyped up as "the most important person in Thedas," a heroic and grand person who would "rise to power" and shape the future of the DA universe, and while that was true to a certain degree, ultimately the payoff just wasnt there. This creates a problem that puts DA2 in a strange position.

You cant call it a personal story about a refugee because we've had this idea of rising to power and fighting like a spartan jammed down our throats. We were told that it was going to be this very personal tale of Hawke and his/her family. But most of your family is (censored for spoilers) and there's basically no interaction beyond Act 1. In Act 3, I forgot I even had a family! Thanks BioWare, for this useless family of mine.

And you cant call it a hero's journey because Hawke isnt a proactive figure. Hawke will just sit idly by while bad **** goes down or while an obvious potential threat walks away. Hawke cant or wont get involved unless he/she is personally at risk. Hawke can stare doom in the face, and just sit there with his/her thumbs up their asses while the threat just walks away. Some hero. Didnt even have the courtesy to tell his mother about (censored for spoilers).

So in short, its not a hero's journey and its not a personal tale. It just is, and I think that sums up DA2 the best.

It just is.

Modifié par Ghidorah14, 01 février 2012 - 02:17 .